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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer

Odrion

Banned
Don't feel too bad about a niche vita game from overseas having a anime woman with a large rack.

Like, I totally understand where you're coming from. But this is far, far, far, far, far from having any sort of an effect on the mainstream. You may as well be targeting doujin.

edit: also if you are wondering about male videogame characters being designed without the hetero male in mind: Clive Barker's Dying, and every Squaresoft game since FF7.
 

Skilletor

Member
The real problem is why the male mage is dressed so conservatively. I love the exaggerated fantasy design, but his clothes are so plain he seems out of place.

RC.jpg
 

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
It's funny to me to constantly see the "Anime Game with Big Boobs, DUH!" talk...

...I remember when I'd watch asian moves and anime with friends, and the males in the movie would always be impressed by asian women that had breast that looked... pretty average to the american eye. My friend would always scream "THOSE AREN'T THAT BIG?!!!!" at the screen, ha.

Interesting how much things can change in 10 years or so...
 
Point me to the hyper-abundance of character designs depicting men with massively exaggerated genitals. The worst it gets with male character designs is the chiseled musculature, which 1) is a power fantasy for men, hence every male-drawn superhero being built this way, and 2) is not diminishing to a man's self-esteem because you barely see media messages promoting this as of great importance to women.
I don't think women would be all that excited over massively exaggerated genitals, though.

The real problem is why the male mage is dressed so conservatively. I love the exaggerated fantasy design, but his clothes are so plain he seems out of place.
Yeah, he's lacking the flair the other characters have. It might make more sense once we see his moveset, though. I mean, I look at the Sorceress in a totally different way now than how I did when the game was revealed.

They're unaffected, because nobody is saying big breasts are unattractive. We're just concerned with the feelings of people who aren't built that way.
You have to know this is wrong. No one is ever "unaffected".

I wasn't referring to you. I'm just establishing, in general, I'm NOT hopping on the feminist bandwagon. I just legitimately feel bad for women constantly seeing this stuff. Most women will never see this game, true, but it bothers me insofar as it's emblematic of a larger trend that I think causes a lot of problems for women's self-esteem.
I understand.

No one, unfortunately. There are no "large" woman in this game.
I think people don't necessarily identify just with what they have, but what they want to be. For example, I am 5'8", and I tend to identify with massive, muscular males despite not fitting that type myself.
 
I hope I don't have to explain that the reason there isn't a male equivalent of Sorceress (buff naked guy with a leather thong and a huge crotch bulge) is because Kamitani is a pervert who loves women.

Fixed.

Their target audience is male but their audience will still buy the game even if all the characters are male. Basically people buy this game not for the tits but for the game.
 

JudgeN

Member
I would love a dragon crown thread were we actually discuss the gameplay instead of whining about the sorceress/amazon.
 

DarkKyo

Member
Fixed.

Their target audience is male but their audience will still buy the game even if all the characters are male. Basically people buy this game not for the tits but for the game.

Yep. I just love Vanillaware, regardless of the characters they use. I actually found myself more interested in the barbarian chick than the sorceress, and found neither offensive right from the start. Every character in the game is sexy in their own way.

If anything, people in this thread should be outraged about the game not having a representative for ugly people, lol...
 
I would love a dragon crown thread were we actually discuss the gameplay instead of whining about the sorceress/amazon.

If only I had access to the thisisneogaf.gif from the 1UP Show PS3 launch special. But also take into account that even the press hasn't played the game. So... yeah, these threads will continue for a whole. But I share the same hope as you.
 

JordanN

Banned
I would love a dragon crown thread were we actually discuss the gameplay instead of whining about the sorceress/amazon.
+1

I'm a feminist so no one can say I hate women or any gender but, I understand heterosexuality and artistic freedom exists.

As long as a female is not made to be seen as less than a human or comes off as useless (without other men being treated the same), I see nothing wrong if a character wants to be shown as attractive.
 
If only I had access to the thisisneogaf.gif from the 1UP Show PS3 launch special. But also take into account that even the press hasn't played the game. So... yeah, these threads will continue for a whole. But I share the same hope as you.

Actually, Jason from Kotaku was allowed to play it.
 

2+2=5

The Amiga Brotherhood
First thing I thought of. Gold skinned, white-haired black mage. It's gotta be at least influenced by Raistlin.

Also, most mages in fantasy wear plain robes. Even Capcom's own D & D inspired mage:
gfs_45443_2_60.jpg



An half naked harpy, a half naked thief and an elf with a mini skirt? Scandalous! How can people play it in public?
 

SmokyDave

Member
They're unaffected, because nobody is saying big breasts are unattractive. We're just concerned with the feelings of people who aren't built that way.
How do you think these women feel when they see supermodels? There aren't any busty supermodels. Why aren't you concerned with the feelings of women that aren't built like teenage boys?

I really don't like the idea that some men have where they decide which women do and don't need defending / protecting. For all the anecdotes about knowing women that have breast enhancements, there are anecdotes about women that have breast reductions. I'd really rather it were left to the affected people to tell us when they're unhappy and why they're unhappy.
 
Please do not act offended. I don't think anyone here is "immoral." Nor do I think this game is "immoral." I just think this sort of depiction doesn't take into account its adverse effects on others. That's all. I'm just speaking for myself and why it bothers me. It bothers me because it's the sort of depiction I've known to hurt the feelings of women I've known in real life.

My mistake, but you might want to edit "enough is enough" if you don't want your post read that way *shrug*.

That said, I take issue with your complaint about it "hurting the feelings of women". As I said in a previous post, every single person on earth has a particular notion of attractiveness. The opposite sex will try to adapt to those preferences, as will advertisers and artists....so the problem is what, exactly? People are upset when they can't meet other people's standards? I'm sure it hurts the feelings of many /v/irgins that fatties and beanpoles aren't on the covers of more romance novels, but that's irrelevent because they're not the target audience and being considered hot is not someone's god-given right. Not to mention the fact that the average male's standards of real-life beauty are not the same as their standards for pornography/anime.
 

DarkKyo

Member
My mistake, but you might want to edit "enough is enough" if you don't want your post read that way *shrug*.

That said, I take issue with your complaint about it "hurting the feelings of women". As I said in a previous post, every single person on earth has a particular notion of attractiveness. The opposite sex will try to adapt to those preferences, as will advertisers and artists....so the problem is what, exactly? People are upset when they can't meet other people's standards? I'm sure it hurts the feelings of many /v/irgins that fatties and beanpoles aren't on the covers of more romance novels, but that's irrelevent because they're not the target audience and being considered hot is not someone's god-given right. Not to mention the fact that the average male's standards of real-life beauty are not the same as their standards for pornography/anime.
This is actually a good point. I've seen a lot of people saying they don't find breasts that large to be attractive, both in real life and in fictional media. In the same way, not all people are going to find the amazon hot in any way, where as some people have a fetish for beefy chicks with huge muscles. I mean hell, she is wearing less clothes than the sorceress!
 
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46517463

I'm not sure if anyone else has been able to go hands on with it.
*gasp*

The amount of spells is pretty impressive the warrior had a decent move set from his video but her move set seems really deep. Can't wait to see the other videos.
It's kind of hard to tell what's going on with the Warrior because there's not a lot of visual flare present. I wonder if his moveset is as vast/deep as the Sorceress'.

Also, in watching the trailer, did anyone else notice books with letters and numbers on them? I thought I saw the Sorceress cycle to one that said something like "C7", and then it became "C6". That kind of reminds me of D&D spell selection, but I'm not certain if that's what's going on there. I'm also not sure if it went to "C6" because she used a spell or because she just cycled to another book. It could stand for something like "Cold Spells left: 7", or it could be "Cold Spell 7" cycling to "Cold Spell 6".
 

Lime

Member
For anyone interested, read this article on what constitutes sexist design. It should clear up some of the misunderstandings in this thread.

Here's its conclusion for those who are lazy:

There's two lessons here that are wholly intertwined. The first lesson is about "who you should direct your frustration and anger at", and that's the author or the artist, not the character themselves. Hating a character, or a cosplayer, or a model, or anyone for "dressing sexy" is not okay. If you feel like they were forced into it and that's your problem, blame the person doing the forcing, don't blame them. The complaint about female characters dressing in impractical clothing should be that "they would choose something different", not "they look like a whore". Agency is the most important aspect here - it separates a person from a non-person, after all. Characters who are "dressed" in sexy clothing are deprived of agency by their artists. Women who are objectified at conventions are deprived of agency by their oglers. If a woman chooses to wear revealing clothing, that's entirely her business - "wearing sexy clothes" is not an implicit agreement to surrender agency. Ostensible feminists deride and despise scantily-clad female characters because they've come to the understanding that those characters are "sexist", but they don't follow up on the root cause of what makes it sexist.

The second lesson is that the difference between a "good character" and a "bad character" is founded entirely on whether or not they can be reasonably justified in-universe. Juliet Starling is difficult to deal with "in-universe" because she seems flagrantly unnatural, even though her component aspects are not necessarily that bad. The same is true of Ivy or Taki. When things don't make sense "in-universe", the blame goes to the creator. It's entirely possible to make attractive characters who make sense and aren't sexist, it's just a question of why those characters exist. Vasquez from Aliens is a well-known example of a solid female character, and despite Hudson's taunting it's actually pretty hard to mistake her for a man. The point was that you didn't notice it because it never felt like Jeanette Goldman was hired for the size of her bust, but instead for her ability to convincingly portray the role she needed to portray. By contrast, characters like Juliet can't feel real because the artist's intention is always there. There's no sense that their design "makes sense in-universe" or that their wardrobe is "reflective of their choices" because you're too busy being overwhelmed by the sheer force of "this character exists to sell the game to teenage boys". The reduction of a character to "basically a pair of tits" is implicitly condoned and supported by the game's developers.
 
+1

I'm a feminist so no one can say I hate women or any gender but, I understand heterosexuality and artistic freedom exists.

As long as a female is not made to be seen as less than a human or comes off as useless (without other men being treated the same), I see nothing wrong if a character wants to be shown as attractive.

Yeah, trips me out that people are saying she's an objectified doll, weak, and vulnerable because her top is low, but in the vid she can kill armies with a single thought lol
 

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
For anyone interested, read this article on what constitutes sexist design. It should clear up some of the misunderstandings in this thread.

Here's its conclusion for those who are lazy:
Other than playing a blame game, I think it's mostly right. I think you bolded the wrong parts as a take-away though, as the 'second lesson' is really debatable. I'd just bold the first part (which still removes agency by implying some 'other' would judge right/wrong regarding a fictional character's outfit - did you catch it?) and leave it at that.

There's two lessons here that are wholly intertwined. The first lesson is about "who you should direct your frustration and anger at", and that's the author or the artist, not the character themselves. Hating a character, or a cosplayer, or a model, or anyone for "dressing sexy" is not okay. If you feel like they were forced into it and that's your problem, blame the person doing the forcing, don't blame them. The complaint about female characters dressing in impractical clothing should be that "they would choose something different", not "they look like a whore". Agency is the most important aspect here - it separates a person from a non-person, after all. Characters who are "dressed" in sexy clothing are deprived of agency by their artists. Women who are objectified at conventions are deprived of agency by their oglers. If a woman chooses to wear revealing clothing, that's entirely her business - "wearing sexy clothes" is not an implicit agreement to surrender agency. Ostensible feminists deride and despise scantily-clad female characters because they've come to the understanding that those characters are "sexist", but they don't follow up on the root cause of what makes it sexist.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
For anyone interested, read this article on what constitutes sexist design. It should clear up some of the misunderstandings in this thread.

Here's its conclusion for those who are lazy:
Argument doesn't apply to Kamitani, whose art style totally revolves around the celebration of the female sex. His games are notorious for eschewing "plot sense" for sheer aesthetics. This applies to all areas, including what clothes the females wear.

He's simply being consistent with his artistic vision, you might as well ask him to stop drawing sexy girls entirely.

Maybe I should tell Ayami Kojima to stop drawing renaissance-esque men as well because she's glorifying the male body and reinforcing unfair standards.
tumblr_mb6joyyWB81r08tiqo1_500.jpg

bvGxCB8.jpg
 
Should every single visual representation of female characters in games be fair, realistic, and within the bounds of somebody's (whose?) good taste?

Is this visual representation more important than how a female character is written and portrayed in the game's mechanics and story?

Is it worse for Dragon's Crown's powerful female characters to have emphasis placed on their idealized sexual characteristics, or for Half Life's Alyx to serve as little more than a virtual girlfriend/damsel-in-distress, despite having a conservative appearance?

Should Vanillaware change their mode of personal expression because it makes you uncomfortable?

Is Vanillaware the worst offender in this area, or just the one that's the most visible to you at the moment?
 
Is it worse for Dragon's Crown's powerful female characters to have emphasis placed on their idealized sexual characteristics, or for Half Life's Alyx to serve as little more than a virtual girlfriend/damsel-in-distress, despite having a conservative appearance?
I like this question.
 

DarkKyo

Member
Is Vanillaware the worst offender in this area, or just the one that's the most visible to you at the moment?
Someone could make the argument that Elizabeth from Bioshock was nothing more than a damsel in distress or a tool to be used by all the male characters in the game for their own ends. She is more of an "object" than the sorceress in Dragon's Crown who can hold her own in battle without the help of a male counter-part. I don't believe this myself(about Elizabeth), I'm just saying any female role can be twisted into a feminist argument. Nobody really said a thing like that about Elizabeth. But if Ken Levine gave her a D-cup, the people in this thread would be ripshit because to them, having big boobs means you're an object.
 

Odrion

Banned
Argument doesn't apply to Kamitani, whose art style totally revolves around the celebration of the female sex. His games are notorious for eschewing "plot sense" for sheer aesthetics. This applies to all areas, including what clothes the females wear.

He's simply being consistent with his artistic vision, you might as well ask him to stop drawing sexy girls entirely.

Maybe I should tell Ayami Kojima to stop drawing renaissance-esque men as well because she's glorifying the male body and reinforcing unfair standards.
UUUGGGHH WHY ISN'T AYAMI KOJIMA DOING CASTLEVANIA ANYMORE. ;_;
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Deku princess was literally an object you picked up and put in a bottle.

OBJECTIFICATION OF WOMEN.
UUUGGGHH WHY ISN'T AYAMI KOJIMA DOING CASTLEVANIA ANYMORE. ;_;
I KNOW! I DON'T UNDESTAND. WHY WOLD YOU EVER STOP TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HER TALENT ARGHARGHARGHARHGARGH.
 
It's amazing how defensive people become when their sexually pandering virtual character is called out for its sexual pandering.

It's inevitable as soon as someone posts "misogyny". That's basically the feminism equivalent of Godwin's Law, you're going to have people object to the accusation of hating women.
 

Odrion

Banned
Deku princess was literally an object you picked up and put in a bottle.

OBJECTIFICATION OF WOMEN.

I KNOW! I DON'T UNDESTAND. WHY WOLD YOU EVER STOP TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HER TALENT ARGHARGHARGHARHGARGH.
I know how we can settle this: Kamitani x Ayami crossover game. Everyone is beautiful and sexy and we achieve world peace.
 

Salsa

Member
Goddamnit this thread... thanks a lot, Salsashark.

Imma go outside and throw a ball or something.

lol :p

anyway, some of the defense force is completely misguided

I dont like playing a game with big bouncing tits and characters moaning and groaning. Sorry. It's not because I get outraged and all white knight, it's because I find it unnecessary, off-putting and embarrasing.

the "i'd feel embarrased to play this in public" isnt a literal statement in the sense that i'd give a shit about what people around me think, but rather that this type of content fits the bill of legitimately feeling like it's content aimed at a taste that isn't mine. Yes i'd feel weird playing a game like this in public because I would already feel weird playing it myself.

It's fun seeing people who cant deal with someone just not liking something and giving their own personal reasons about it. It's like every little bit of negativity should be immediatly mocked or dismissed by some excuse..

I think my favorite argument so far is the "but there's women in real life with those proportions! do they embarrass you?" way to miss the point



anyway, im sorry if I turned this into something no one wanted, figured my opinion was valid for discussion since I dont think ive talked much about this ever since like, the reveal
 
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