The real problem is why the male mage is dressed so conservatively. I love the exaggerated fantasy design, but his clothes are so plain he seems out of place.
The "some girls are naturally busty with an hourglass waist" argument is silly. Those women don't have it hard; they have what every woman is conditioned by a male-dominated society to want.
I don't think women would be all that excited over massively exaggerated genitals, though.Point me to the hyper-abundance of character designs depicting men with massively exaggerated genitals. The worst it gets with male character designs is the chiseled musculature, which 1) is a power fantasy for men, hence every male-drawn superhero being built this way, and 2) is not diminishing to a man's self-esteem because you barely see media messages promoting this as of great importance to women.
Yeah, he's lacking the flair the other characters have. It might make more sense once we see his moveset, though. I mean, I look at the Sorceress in a totally different way now than how I did when the game was revealed.The real problem is why the male mage is dressed so conservatively. I love the exaggerated fantasy design, but his clothes are so plain he seems out of place.
You have to know this is wrong. No one is ever "unaffected".They're unaffected, because nobody is saying big breasts are unattractive. We're just concerned with the feelings of people who aren't built that way.
I understand.I wasn't referring to you. I'm just establishing, in general, I'm NOT hopping on the feminist bandwagon. I just legitimately feel bad for women constantly seeing this stuff. Most women will never see this game, true, but it bothers me insofar as it's emblematic of a larger trend that I think causes a lot of problems for women's self-esteem.
I think people don't necessarily identify just with what they have, but what they want to be. For example, I am 5'8", and I tend to identify with massive, muscular males despite not fitting that type myself.No one, unfortunately. There are no "large" woman in this game.
I hope I don't have to explain that the reason there isn't a male equivalent of Sorceress (buff naked guy with a leather thong and a huge crotch bulge) is because Kamitani is a pervert who loves women.
Is he supposed to be based on that? Looks like garbage, especially in comparison to the rest of the game's art.
Fixed.
Their target audience is male but their audience will still buy the game even if all the characters are male. Basically people buy this game not for the tits but for the game.
I tried to start us off by talking about her spells, and no one cared.I would love a dragon crown thread were we actually discuss the gameplay instead of whining about the sorceress/amazon.
I would love a dragon crown thread were we actually discuss the gameplay instead of whining about the sorceress/amazon.
I would love a dragon crown thread were we actually discuss the gameplay instead of whining about the sorceress/amazon.
Shame, this would have been great for cross play.WAY more mobile and versatile than I thought she'd be. Still a shame this isn't a cross buy/play. Feel like it'd be a great portable title but the art is begging for a big screen.
+1I would love a dragon crown thread were we actually discuss the gameplay instead of whining about the sorceress/amazon.
If only I had access to the thisisneogaf.gif from the 1UP Show PS3 launch special. But also take into account that even the press hasn't played the game. So... yeah, these threads will continue for a whole. But I share the same hope as you.
I would love a dragon crown thread were we actually discuss the gameplay instead of whining about the sorceress/amazon.
I thought he just got to see it.Actually, Jason from Kotaku was allowed to play it.
First thing I thought of. Gold skinned, white-haired black mage. It's gotta be at least influenced by Raistlin.
Also, most mages in fantasy wear plain robes. Even Capcom's own D & D inspired mage:
How do you think these women feel when they see supermodels? There aren't any busty supermodels. Why aren't you concerned with the feelings of women that aren't built like teenage boys?They're unaffected, because nobody is saying big breasts are unattractive. We're just concerned with the feelings of people who aren't built that way.
Please do not act offended. I don't think anyone here is "immoral." Nor do I think this game is "immoral." I just think this sort of depiction doesn't take into account its adverse effects on others. That's all. I'm just speaking for myself and why it bothers me. It bothers me because it's the sort of depiction I've known to hurt the feelings of women I've known in real life.
I thought he just got to see it.
Atlus is releasing Dragon's Crown. I played it at their offices!
Actually, Jason from Kotaku was allowed to play it.
This is actually a good point. I've seen a lot of people saying they don't find breasts that large to be attractive, both in real life and in fictional media. In the same way, not all people are going to find the amazon hot in any way, where as some people have a fetish for beefy chicks with huge muscles. I mean hell, she is wearing less clothes than the sorceress!My mistake, but you might want to edit "enough is enough" if you don't want your post read that way *shrug*.
That said, I take issue with your complaint about it "hurting the feelings of women". As I said in a previous post, every single person on earth has a particular notion of attractiveness. The opposite sex will try to adapt to those preferences, as will advertisers and artists....so the problem is what, exactly? People are upset when they can't meet other people's standards? I'm sure it hurts the feelings of many /v/irgins that fatties and beanpoles aren't on the covers of more romance novels, but that's irrelevent because they're not the target audience and being considered hot is not someone's god-given right. Not to mention the fact that the average male's standards of real-life beauty are not the same as their standards for pornography/anime.
Doesn't your "that would be TITS" avatar do this as well?Neiteio said:and yet the sorceress promotes the idea that this is absolutely what men want from women.
I would love a dragon crown thread were we actually discuss the gameplay instead of whining about the sorceress/amazon.
I tried to start us off by talking about her spells, and no one cared.
*gasp*http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46517463
I'm not sure if anyone else has been able to go hands on with it.
It's kind of hard to tell what's going on with the Warrior because there's not a lot of visual flare present. I wonder if his moveset is as vast/deep as the Sorceress'.The amount of spells is pretty impressive the warrior had a decent move set from his video but her move set seems really deep. Can't wait to see the other videos.
There's two lessons here that are wholly intertwined. The first lesson is about "who you should direct your frustration and anger at", and that's the author or the artist, not the character themselves. Hating a character, or a cosplayer, or a model, or anyone for "dressing sexy" is not okay. If you feel like they were forced into it and that's your problem, blame the person doing the forcing, don't blame them. The complaint about female characters dressing in impractical clothing should be that "they would choose something different", not "they look like a whore". Agency is the most important aspect here - it separates a person from a non-person, after all. Characters who are "dressed" in sexy clothing are deprived of agency by their artists. Women who are objectified at conventions are deprived of agency by their oglers. If a woman chooses to wear revealing clothing, that's entirely her business - "wearing sexy clothes" is not an implicit agreement to surrender agency. Ostensible feminists deride and despise scantily-clad female characters because they've come to the understanding that those characters are "sexist", but they don't follow up on the root cause of what makes it sexist.
The second lesson is that the difference between a "good character" and a "bad character" is founded entirely on whether or not they can be reasonably justified in-universe. Juliet Starling is difficult to deal with "in-universe" because she seems flagrantly unnatural, even though her component aspects are not necessarily that bad. The same is true of Ivy or Taki. When things don't make sense "in-universe", the blame goes to the creator. It's entirely possible to make attractive characters who make sense and aren't sexist, it's just a question of why those characters exist. Vasquez from Aliens is a well-known example of a solid female character, and despite Hudson's taunting it's actually pretty hard to mistake her for a man. The point was that you didn't notice it because it never felt like Jeanette Goldman was hired for the size of her bust, but instead for her ability to convincingly portray the role she needed to portray. By contrast, characters like Juliet can't feel real because the artist's intention is always there. There's no sense that their design "makes sense in-universe" or that their wardrobe is "reflective of their choices" because you're too busy being overwhelmed by the sheer force of "this character exists to sell the game to teenage boys". The reduction of a character to "basically a pair of tits" is implicitly condoned and supported by the game's developers.
For anyone interested, read this article on what constitutes sexist design. It should clear up some of the misunderstandings in this thread.
Here's its conclusion for those who are lazy:
+1
I'm a feminist so no one can say I hate women or any gender but, I understand heterosexuality and artistic freedom exists.
As long as a female is not made to be seen as less than a human or comes off as useless (without other men being treated the same), I see nothing wrong if a character wants to be shown as attractive.
I want to like this game, but ugh... those designs... what the hell?, that other girl looks more muscular than all the other man in the game.
Other than playing a blame game, I think it's mostly right. I think you bolded the wrong parts as a take-away though, as the 'second lesson' is really debatable. I'd just bold the first part (which still removes agency by implying some 'other' would judge right/wrong regarding a fictional character's outfit - did you catch it?) and leave it at that.For anyone interested, read this article on what constitutes sexist design. It should clear up some of the misunderstandings in this thread.
Here's its conclusion for those who are lazy:
There's two lessons here that are wholly intertwined. The first lesson is about "who you should direct your frustration and anger at", and that's the author or the artist, not the character themselves. Hating a character, or a cosplayer, or a model, or anyone for "dressing sexy" is not okay. If you feel like they were forced into it and that's your problem, blame the person doing the forcing, don't blame them. The complaint about female characters dressing in impractical clothing should be that "they would choose something different", not "they look like a whore". Agency is the most important aspect here - it separates a person from a non-person, after all. Characters who are "dressed" in sexy clothing are deprived of agency by their artists. Women who are objectified at conventions are deprived of agency by their oglers. If a woman chooses to wear revealing clothing, that's entirely her business - "wearing sexy clothes" is not an implicit agreement to surrender agency. Ostensible feminists deride and despise scantily-clad female characters because they've come to the understanding that those characters are "sexist", but they don't follow up on the root cause of what makes it sexist.
Argument doesn't apply to Kamitani, whose art style totally revolves around the celebration of the female sex. His games are notorious for eschewing "plot sense" for sheer aesthetics. This applies to all areas, including what clothes the females wear.For anyone interested, read this article on what constitutes sexist design. It should clear up some of the misunderstandings in this thread.
Here's its conclusion for those who are lazy:
I like this question.Is it worse for Dragon's Crown's powerful female characters to have emphasis placed on their idealized sexual characteristics, or for Half Life's Alyx to serve as little more than a virtual girlfriend/damsel-in-distress, despite having a conservative appearance?
Someone could make the argument that Elizabeth from Bioshock was nothing more than a damsel in distress or a tool to be used by all the male characters in the game for their own ends. She is more of an "object" than the sorceress in Dragon's Crown who can hold her own in battle without the help of a male counter-part. I don't believe this myself(about Elizabeth), I'm just saying any female role can be twisted into a feminist argument. Nobody really said a thing like that about Elizabeth. But if Ken Levine gave her a D-cup, the people in this thread would be ripshit because to them, having big boobs means you're an object.Is Vanillaware the worst offender in this area, or just the one that's the most visible to you at the moment?
There should be a male character with testicles so large that his crotchplate is literally just two large orbs.
UUUGGGHH WHY ISN'T AYAMI KOJIMA DOING CASTLEVANIA ANYMORE. ;_;Argument doesn't apply to Kamitani, whose art style totally revolves around the celebration of the female sex. His games are notorious for eschewing "plot sense" for sheer aesthetics. This applies to all areas, including what clothes the females wear.
He's simply being consistent with his artistic vision, you might as well ask him to stop drawing sexy girls entirely.
Maybe I should tell Ayami Kojima to stop drawing renaissance-esque men as well because she's glorifying the male body and reinforcing unfair standards.
I KNOW! I DON'T UNDESTAND. WHY WOLD YOU EVER STOP TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HER TALENT ARGHARGHARGHARHGARGH.UUUGGGHH WHY ISN'T AYAMI KOJIMA DOING CASTLEVANIA ANYMORE. ;_;
It's amazing how defensive people become when their sexually pandering virtual character is called out for its sexual pandering.
I know how we can settle this: Kamitani x Ayami crossover game. Everyone is beautiful and sexy and we achieve world peace.Deku princess was literally an object you picked up and put in a bottle.
OBJECTIFICATION OF WOMEN.
I KNOW! I DON'T UNDESTAND. WHY WOLD YOU EVER STOP TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HER TALENT ARGHARGHARGHARHGARGH.
Goddamnit this thread... thanks a lot, Salsashark.
Imma go outside and throw a ball or something.