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EviLore
Expansive Ellipses
(04-13-2013, 08:35 PM)
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1) Contrary to the Kickstarter proposal promises, no DRM-free edition of the game will be offered for sale, only provided to the existing Kickstarter backers, due to a previously undisclosed licensing negotiation with Microsoft that had not yet been finalized. The backer DRM-free version will not support future DLC additions beyond the original campaign and the Berlin DLC. Steam will be required for those due to the Microsoft agreement. Note that backers receive both the DRM-free version and the Steam version.

Originally Posted by Kickstarter update

The reason is that our license to develop Shadowrun Returns actually requires that the game and its DLC be distributed under DRM

The DRM-free version will also not support patching, so the game will need to be downloaded in full every time an update is released:

Originally Posted by Kickstarter update

These updates will require Backers to re-download the game from the Harebrained Account Website, since it will not include auto-patching functionality.

Access to user-created content will also be limited:

Originally Posted by Kickstarter update

To honor our original promise of a DRM-free version of the game, the Harebrained Account Website will also contain a downloadable version of Shadowrun Returns that does not include Steam integration. While this version will include the Seattle story (and Berlin, via a one-time update), without Steam integration, it will be unable to browse and play community-created stories from within the game. Any future DLC will only be available through Steam.


2) The Kickstarter stretch goal second city, Berlin, has been shunted into a post-release paid DLC (included for backers, but not otherwise) instead of being included with the game at release for everyone.

Originally Posted by Kickstarter Update

What sort of DLC can we expect?

Here’s what we’re planning to make available for paid download after launch:

Berlin Campaign (new campaigns also allow you to build with an expanded set of tiles)
Map Packs (new terrain tiles and props for you to use in your own campaigns)
All New Shadowrun Stories (created by HBS)
Additional Outfits and Portraits for your character
Now to be clear, our Backers and Collector’s Edition Pre-orderers will get the Berlin Campaign at no charge. Any DLC developed after launch will require payment.


3) The $1.8 million Kickstarter success is apparently not enough money to develop manual save games or looting, which are too complicated and difficult to implement within the scope of the project.

Originally Posted by Shadowrun Returns FAQ

Saving System

[A-02] Q: What will the save system be like?
A: We're planning a checkpoint system. No one on the team likes checkpoints better than save any time you want. But we're a small team with a LOT to do and save games are complicated. Thanks for understanding.

Originally Posted by Shadowrun Returns FAQ

Q: Are you planning on making corpses lootable?
A: Corpse looting involves a loot system and associated systems that interact with it. As much as we wanted one and designed one, we don't have the funding to implement it in this version of the game. If we'd done like the SNES and Sega games and gave you one PC/character class and no race choices to play, we might have had time for it. We invested in giving you ownership of your character, knowing that we could add things like that down the road if the game were successful.


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...-returns/posts
http://www.shadowrun.com/forums/disc...#Comment_38389
Last edited by EviLore; 04-14-2013 at 02:24 AM.
Brannon
Ladies! On my signal,
unleash boobs.
(04-13-2013, 08:38 PM)
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Well then.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
(04-13-2013, 08:38 PM)
Ugh...

I was planning to use Steam anyway but this is pretty dissapointing. Also, I feel dirty for funding DLC.
Lead Based Paint
Member
(04-13-2013, 08:39 PM)
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That seems pretty shitty.
Lothars
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(04-13-2013, 08:39 PM)
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How the DLC is handled I don't necessarily have an issue with but I really think the lack of save anywhere and looting is a really blackmark on the game.
Black Door
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(04-13-2013, 08:40 PM)
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Is Shadowrun cursed? It sure seems like it.

(edit: This largely makes me worried because I've backed like 6 or 7 projects on KS, and none of them are finished, and I fear that I might end up getting half a game or worse because of "unforseen circumstances." I still want to "believe" in the mission of KS, though)
Last edited by Black Door; 04-13-2013 at 08:52 PM.
Data West
coaches in the WNBA
(04-13-2013, 08:41 PM)
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Harebrained ruining Kickstarter for everyone. The DLC thing is the most fucked, 'thanks for supporting us, buuuut you didn't support us on kickstarter, so you gotta pay extra for Berlin'

A real sham(e).
Zenaku
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(04-13-2013, 08:41 PM)
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I heard something about this, but didn't know specifics; rather surprised.

I'm most surprised at the saving though; I'm working on a game in Unity by myself, and already have a fully functioning "save anywhere" system. What exactly makes it impossible for them, besides saving the exact same data they save at checkpoints with the current location?
Glass Rebel
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(04-13-2013, 08:42 PM)
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I was planning on getting the Steam version anyway so it doesn't bother me personally and I'm not sure I can talk about the technicalities of save/loot systems but this all sounds pretty shady.
Jb
Member
(04-13-2013, 08:42 PM)
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Some publishers must be laughing their ass off watching some of these kickstarters turn into such fine messes because the devs overpromised or because of mismanagement of the team's time and ressources.
"See the shit we have to deal with on every single project?"
Truant
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(04-13-2013, 08:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zenaku

I heard something about this, but didn't know specifics; rather surprised.

I'm most surprised at the saving though; I'm working on a game in Unity by myself, and already have a fully functioning "save anywhere" system. What exactly makes it impossible for them, besides saving the exact same data they save at checkpoints with the current location?

Well it's probably hard to keep track all of the loot in the play.. wait.

Save System as $4 million stretch goal!
SovanJedi
provides useful feedback
(04-13-2013, 08:43 PM)
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That's... really quite shitty, to be honest.
Arksy
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(04-13-2013, 08:43 PM)
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It was only a matter of time before a large dispute revolving around kickstarter crystallised. Unfortunately this doesn't leave the backers with a lot of good options for legal redress.

There are two main legal avenues they could explore. Promissory estoppel, as an alternative to a contractual dispute, but this leaves the issue of remedies. (As an equitable remedy, damages are not always available). Secondly, you could a form over substance argument in terms of contract. If a document purports to set up a donation but in fact you're being induced to do so through consideration, you could argue that it's a sham and is actually a contract. This allows you to pursue it as a garden-variety breach of contract. The first avenue would be a far stronger argument.

Of course the subtleties might be different, I operate under a similar but discrete jurisdiction (Australia), but the principles should remain largely the same.
Aselith
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(04-13-2013, 08:43 PM)
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I don't understand how checkpointing is easier than save anywhere. Like why don't you just do the same thing you'd do for checkpoints but do it...at any time. Can't they just make save states like an emulator would have?

The loot thing I actually don't mind as long as the skill and customization system is robust enough that you can have a lot of varied specs. My main concern is that there won't be customization via loot and the game will also have really narrow skill paths so there won't be a lot replayability.
Last edited by Aselith; 04-13-2013 at 08:46 PM.
Ikuu
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(04-13-2013, 08:44 PM)
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Don't care about the DRM or DLC stuff, but no saving or looting is pretty horrible.
Messofanego
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(04-13-2013, 08:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by EviLore

Steam will be required for those due to a previously undisclosed licensing agreement with Microsoft.

Originally Posted by Kickstarter update:

The reason is that our license to develop Shadowrun Returns actually requires that the game and its DLC be distributed under DRM

I am confused. I thought Kickstarter was used to avoid publishers.
Purkake4
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(04-13-2013, 08:45 PM)
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I wonder if there have been any game kickstarters where the end product is released to everyone for free ala Idle Thumbs. Obviously not an ideal solution for the developer, but that's one way to lose the shadiness.
AstroZombie
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(04-13-2013, 08:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Messofanego

I am confused. I thought Kickstarter was used to avoid publishers.

Microsoft still owns the Shadowrun license, but I don't think they've ever mentioned that during their kickstarter campaign.
sflufan
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(04-13-2013, 08:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Messofanego

I am confused. I thought Kickstarter was used to avoid publishers.

Microsoft holds the Shadowrun license - this has nothing to do with them acting as the game's publisher.
~Kinggi~
FIND ME AN ESCORT
NO SHARP KNEEEEEEES
(04-13-2013, 08:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Messofanego

I am confused. I thought Kickstarter was used to avoid publishers.

I think its because MS might own the shadowrun name but gave them permission to do this?
Truant
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(04-13-2013, 08:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Aselith

I don't understand how checkpointing is easier than save anywhere. Like why don't you just do the same thing you'd do for checkpoints but do it...at any time. Can't they just make save states like an emulator would have?

Dude, emulators are made by one guy in his spare time without any financial backing. You can't expect a $2 million Kickstarter from a team of several developers to deliver that kind of quality.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
(04-13-2013, 08:46 PM)
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This is horrible. Makes me not want to back anything else. I've only backed Wasteland 2 thus far and it looks like it's going to stay that way.
Arksy
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(04-13-2013, 08:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Messofanego

I am confused. I thought Kickstarter was used to avoid publishers.

Licensing agreement. It was an agreement to license the IP, not to publish the game.
DaBuddaDa
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(04-13-2013, 08:46 PM)
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Saving System

[A-02] Q: What will the save system be like?
A: We're planning a checkpoint system. No one on the team likes checkpoints better than save any time you want. But we're a small team with a LOT to do and save games are complicated. Thanks for understanding.

I can deal with the rest of the issues, but this? C'mon. I think people deserve a better explanation than this.
papersleeves
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(04-13-2013, 08:47 PM)
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Sounds like a dick move to me.
Zeta_Enforcer
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(04-13-2013, 08:47 PM)
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Save anywhere will be a function of DLC add on in the future.
Data West
coaches in the WNBA
(04-13-2013, 08:47 PM)
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I play browser games with manual saves.

Browser games. But I guess I'm just acting entitled.

edit: Also if it's 'too much work' why the hell are they releasing it in June? Wasn't part of the point of Kickstarter to have a more lax schedule to get things done rather than going all Jurassic Park: Trespasser and 'patching it later'
~Kinggi~
FIND ME AN ESCORT
NO SHARP KNEEEEEEES
(04-13-2013, 08:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by LiquidMetal14

This is horrible. Makes me not want to back anything else. I've only backed Wasteland 2 thus far and it looks like it's going to stay that way.

This is stupid logic. This is only one project, and its not exactly a massive disaster. Its just not as ideal and nice as a Kickstarter project should be. The game could still be fantastic, wait for release.

And as for everything else, like Wasteland, PE, Torment, they all now own those licenses so there isnt as much excuse to do stuff like this.
Dennis
Banned
(04-13-2013, 08:48 PM)
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Don't care about DRM and DLC. Checkpoints vs saves I don't know yet.

But the no loot thing we have known for a while but when I complained about it here on GAF nobody else seemed to give a fuck. Which is weird to me since this is an RPG.
NIN90
fish heads fish heads
roly-poly fish heads
(04-13-2013, 08:48 PM)
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I don't care about most of those issues but the bottom two are really bad.
Messofanego
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(04-13-2013, 08:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by ~Kinggi~

I think its because MS might own the shadowrun name but gave them permission to do this?

Originally Posted by Arksy

Licensing agreement. It was an agreement to license the IP, not to publish the game.

Huh, interesting. So this is a Microsoft-approved Kickstarter.
Chacranajxy
I paid good money for this Dynex!
(04-13-2013, 08:49 PM)
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Wow, that is pretty slimy. Thanks for highlighting this.
JaseC
gave away the keys to the kingdom.
(04-13-2013, 08:49 PM)
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Saving System

[A-02] Q: What will the save system be like?
A: We're planning a checkpoint system. No one on the team likes checkpoints better than save any time you want. But we're a small team with a LOT to do and save games are complicated. Thanks for understanding.

"A small team with a lot to do" precluding instanced saves is such a crock of shit.
scarybore
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(04-13-2013, 08:49 PM)
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Fully understand why backers would be pissed at these revelations, such stipulations should have been made clear when the project was in the funding stage.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
(04-13-2013, 08:50 PM)

Originally Posted by ~Kinggi~

This is stupid logic. This is only one project, and its not exactly a massive disaster. Its just not as ideal and nice as a Kickstarter project should be. The game could still be fantastic, wait for release.

And as for everything else, like Wasteland, PE, Torment, they all now own those licenses so there isnt as much excuse to do stuff like this.

Still, doesn't leave a good precedent. I think the game could be pretty good but this leaves me with a bad feeling in general.
inm8num2
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(04-13-2013, 08:50 PM)
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When I saw yesterday's update I thought it seemed like a reasonable solution. I mean, I understand people are disappointed that the DRM-free version essentially has a defined lifespan regarding DLC. But I didn't follow the SR campaign closely, and I don't know how much DLC they said they planned other than Berlin.

If they didn't hint at other DLC, one could argue they're not technically breaking their promise/guarantee. But if they spoke of the DRM-free version as having all the features and abilities as the Steam version, then it's a bit concerning.
Aselith
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(04-13-2013, 08:51 PM)
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Was it Unity they were developing on? Maybe someone with Unity experience cold comment on how difficult save implementation is in the engine? I'd think it'd be pretty straightforward but IANAD.
Durante
I'm taking it FROM here, so says Mr. Stewart
(04-13-2013, 08:51 PM)
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I'm not too surprised, Shadowrun Returns was always one of the projects I backed that I felt more unsure of. In the end, Harebrained are a mobile game developer, so I just don't have the same expectations from them that I have from a "real" development studio such as Obsidian or Larian that has shipped large, complex games.

Honestly however, even making allowances for that, the save issue and its excuse are pretty laughable. Someone messed up royally in their architecture design if it's truly not feasible for them to implement a real save system.


Originally Posted by LiquidMetal14

This is horrible. Makes me not want to back anything else. I've only backed Wasteland 2 thus far and it looks like it's going to stay that way.

I don't understand this point of view, for what it's worth. It seems equivalent to saying "this game I bought did not fulfill all my expectations, I'll never buy a game again". I could perfectly understand not supporting the same developer, but an entire system of distribution?
mAcOdIn
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(04-13-2013, 08:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by ElTopo

Sounds actually pretty similar to the Shadowrun game for SNES, so I don't really have a problem with that.

But the SNES one had looting, Granted, it wasn't the most sophisticated looting option available but it did have it.

But I don't think the SNES one had Save Anywhere, think you had to use a bed for that.
Data West
coaches in the WNBA
(04-13-2013, 08:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by inm8num2

If they didn't hint at other DLC, one could argue they're not technically breaking their promise/guarantee. But if they spoke of the DRM-free version as having all the features and abilities as the Steam version, then it's a bit concerning.

That's the main problem. There's been a lack of communication from them since the start. A lot of vagueness that would make a consumer assume because they didn't specify.
ColonelSkills
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(04-13-2013, 08:52 PM)
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Considering I upped my pledge during the run in the push for Berlin, it irks me that it's now paid DLC for everyone else. I definitely wouldn't have upgraded a tier if I was aware of that beforehand.

The save thing is pretty god damn ridiculous, in any case.
benny_a
extra source of jiggaflops
(04-13-2013, 08:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by inm8num2

If they didn't hint at other DLC, one could argue they're not technically breaking their promise/guarantee. But if they spoke of the DRM-free version as having all the features and abilities as the Steam version, then it's a bit concerning.

If they have to argue based on a technicality of a phrasing of the Kickstarter page, then they failed their backers and costumers.
Kusagari
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(04-13-2013, 08:52 PM)
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The save excuse sounds like pure bullshit.
Victrix
*beard*
(04-13-2013, 08:53 PM)
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The other gameplay system stuff is 'whatever' to me (though their excuse for saved games/loot is fucking hilarious)

But the Microsoft contract/DRM stuff? That's straight fucked up, and should have been fully disclosed from the word go.

Note that it does not affect me personally, I'll use the Steam version and don't give a shit, but the hoops they have to go through for the DRM free version are a joke, and are guaranteed to be fucked up/not work at all.

I look forward to observing the trainwreck on release.
sflufan
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(04-13-2013, 08:53 PM)
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These goddamned checkpoints had better be spaced intelligently apart.
Twinduct
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(04-13-2013, 08:53 PM)
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No loots?
Was there loots in the table top version?
Dennis
Banned
(04-13-2013, 08:53 PM)
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If the save excuse is bullshit what is their motive to not have saves?
Snapshot King
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(04-13-2013, 08:53 PM)
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I'm not entirely surprised. They overpromised and surprise, the Microsoft IP agreement has a hidden hook.

It's not a total disaster, but it certainly is disappointing. The checkpoint shit...bizarre though. To be fair though, my hopes were never nearly as high with Shadowrun compared to Wasteland, Eternity and Torment.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
(04-13-2013, 08:54 PM)

Originally Posted by Durante

I'm not too surprised, Shadowrun Returns was always one of the projects I backed that I felt more unsure of. In the end, Harebrained are a mobile game developer, so I just don't have the same expectations from them that I have from a "real" development studio such as Obsidian or Larian that has shipped large, complex games.

This also happened to me. But the gameplay showcase give me some confidence... but then this happens...

Still, i want to play the game, but boy this is slimmy as heck...
Alextended
Banned
(04-13-2013, 08:54 PM)
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Yeah, I don't understand how some people can claim that they technically honor the reward tiers so it's all good. They don't honor the primary project goal, which was to make a public DRM-free release with two cities, and that does affect the community that will take form and the usability of the honored reward tiers. According to that logic they could turn the game into an MMORPG with monthly fees and it'd all be good as long as you still received a copy or whatever your tier rewards stated. It's not just the reward tiers that matter in these cases guys, it's what overall goals we or others funded too. The reduced functionality adds insult to injury.
Last edited by Alextended; 04-13-2013 at 08:56 PM.

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