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Nilaul
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:14 PM)
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As we all know the EU law is quite pro-consumer, while the Xbox one is not. Microsoft is constantly getting wiped around by the EU law.


:: Any recording devices/viewing devices (e.g webcams) have to have the option of being turned off in the EU, otherwise it violates the law. So kinect will be always on?

:: Another issue is with selling used game.

An author of software cannot oppose the resale of his 'used' licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet," the ruling read. The exclusive right of distribution covered by a license is "exhausted on its first sale"

A customer's has the right to sell any content or device that they have legally purchased without restriction. So a used fee or limiting the re-sellers violates this doesn't it? I mean say your not actually selling it but giving it away for fee to your friend. Your friend has to pay an online fee to microsoft? Then that's already restricting.



There probably other issues that I have missed, but feel free to add to the discussion.
Last edited by Nilaul; 05-25-2013 at 05:21 PM.
Dead Man
I got d 2 tha eepdicked
d-e-e-p-d-i-c-k-e-d
(05-25-2013, 05:16 PM)
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I don't know squat about EU law, but look forward to the discussion.
8bits
Banned
(05-25-2013, 05:16 PM)
I think it's apparent Microsoft could less about markets outside of the US...and gamers.
Lagspike_exe
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:16 PM)
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Judging by their presentation, they really don't care.
Biggzy
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Nilaul

As we all know the EU law is quite pro-consumer, while the Xbox one is not. Microsoft is constantly getting wiped around by the EU law.

:: Another issue is with selling used game.

An author of software cannot oppose the resale of his 'used' licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet," the ruling read. The exclusive right of distribution covered by a license is "exhausted on its first sale"

A customer's has the right to sell any content or device that they have legally purchased without restriction. So a used fee or limiting the re-sellers violates this doesn't it?.

But MS are allowing you to resell your game, when we shift through the shitstorm. The real question is whether the EU will rule that MS can't manapolise that market, which is what they seem to be doing.
Last edited by Biggzy; 05-25-2013 at 05:18 PM.
EvilMario
Will QA for food.
(05-25-2013, 05:17 PM)
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Judging by the reveal, Microsoft puts all territories outside of the US at a distance second when it comes to policies and features. Are there laws for specific countries that it might violate as well?
Amir0x
demodded, not denutted
(05-25-2013, 05:17 PM)
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I hope it's so impossible to sell Xbox One in Europe that it's mired in shit for years and fails to sell more than a few thousand units. Japan's already done for them. So then everything will rest on the US recognizing how awful the console is.
Spartaner
Banned
(05-25-2013, 05:17 PM)
would be hilarious if EU gets a non kinect required version of the xone
Chacranajxy
I paid good money for this Dynex!
(05-25-2013, 05:17 PM)
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Will definitely be interesting on both counts. Shame US law isn't exactly in favor of consumer advocacy. Oh well.
AHA-Lambda
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:17 PM)
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I'm looking forward to a ruling on this; hope they come down on this hard.
weekend_warrior
Junior Member
(05-25-2013, 05:17 PM)
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This is all assuming MS manages to sell an Xbone in Europe.
cjoyce1980
Banned
(05-25-2013, 05:18 PM)
xbox as always had a USA focus, and yes, to adhere to currently EU laws the users will have the rights to turn Kinect off completely as the users can currently do with the 360
whatevermort
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:18 PM)
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Oh my god Microsoft are going to so pissed when they realise they didn't think about this.

Of course they have. First of all, there's no way that Kinect is sitting there actually watching you, recording you, broadcasting you anywhere. It's just on standby with a voice-activation to turn on. Simple.

Secondly, you can re-sell. There might be shenanigans to do with private sale, but I'll bet MS have thought of a way around that - I don't know, some sort of online license transfer form that's a total hassle but makes it viable. (Or, standard private sale activation codes, like multiplayer codes work these days.)
Duxxy3
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:18 PM)
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Xbone is releasing outside of America?

Cuz someone needs to tell microsoft.
PJV3
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Amir0x

I hope it's so impossible to sell Xbox One in Europe that it's mired in shit for years and fails to sell more than a few thousand units. Japan's already done for them. So then everything will rest on the US recognizing how awful the console is.

NFL and Doritos.

It's already won.
Miles Quaritch
lemme stick dat Red Ring
(05-25-2013, 05:19 PM)
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Pretty sure the EU didn't come down on online passes, so if any anti used system used a similar mechanism (passes, cd keys, activation keys), I'm pretty sure it wouldn't fall foul of EU law of reselling.

I do know Steam were told to allow reselling of licences, but not much has come of that. These things can sometimes take years to go through the entire court process and I'm pretty sure the EU wouldn't demand a product be removed from sale in the meantime.
Last edited by Miles Quaritch; 05-25-2013 at 05:25 PM.
Red Chocobo
Banned
(05-25-2013, 05:20 PM)
Speaking of law. Aren't there health and safety issues with constantly blasting people with infrared light? (What Kinect uses to read you).

I know long exposure is bad for your eyes.
syko de4d
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:21 PM)
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Looks like MS just want to sell their 1billion Xbones in US only, 3 Bones for every US citizen.

Really, is there anyone from EU that wants a Xbone? I am from germany and it doesn“t look like many people will get a Xbone. PS3 is already way more popular here than xbox360, next gen i bet the PS4 will be even more popular. Many people that left the ps2 and changed to xbox360 in the first years, where xbox360 was good, will change back to ps4 :)
SquiddyCracker
Junior Member
(05-25-2013, 05:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by whatevermort

Oh my god Microsoft are going to so pissed when they realise they didn't think about this.

Of course they have. First of all, there's no way that Kinect is sitting there actually watching you, recording you, broadcasting you anywhere. It's just on standby with a voice-activation to turn on. Simple.

Secondly, you can re-sell. There might be shenanigans to do with private sale, but I'll bet MS have thought of a way around that - I don't know, some sort of online license transfer form that's a total hassle but makes it viable. (Or, standard private sale activation codes, like multiplayer codes work these days.)

In order for to be in standby, it has to be on, and if there's no way to turn it off completely (e.g. disconnect the power to it), then it sounds like it would break that rule.
Biggzy
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Farrow

Speaking of law. Aren't there health and safety issues with constantly blasting people with infrared light? (What Kinect uses to read you).

I know long exposure is bad for your eyes.

We are blasted everyday with radiation.
Spartaner
Banned
(05-25-2013, 05:21 PM)

Originally Posted by Miles Quaritch

I'm pretty sure the EU wouldn't demand a product be removed from sale in the meantime.

youre right but theyll force them to change the kinect requirement a bit so it doesnt violate laws.

my assumption.
Jeanmamadou
Junior Member
(05-25-2013, 05:22 PM)
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Things are actually moving too in a european manner in the US

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/1...p#.UQ0OeaU734s
Last edited by Jeanmamadou; 05-25-2013 at 05:23 PM. Reason: forgot a couple of words...
benny_a
extra source of jiggaflops
(05-25-2013, 05:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Biggzy

We are blasted everyday with radiation.

Nice defense.
JDSN
You must walk home naked, dragging behind you the Stone of Shame.
(05-25-2013, 05:23 PM)
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Im surprised there isnt a bigger backlash about some of its features in the states, theres usually some loud nutjob with a louder fanbase that starts screaming "Nanny state!" and when someone in the White House sneezes.
Biggzy
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by benny_a

Nice defense.

Not really a defense, but the truth. There could be some health risks, but I doubt it.
BibiMaghoo
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:24 PM)
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I think it's more the case that MS has zero problems with fighting court battles for years.

This inhibiting resale rights -which are set in law - will bite them in the ass though. Especially as they are positioned to profit greatly from it's use.
DrM
Redmond's Baby
(05-25-2013, 05:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lagspike_exe

Judging by their presentation, they really don't care.

Brussels jumping with joy, more free money from MS
Broken Joystick
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:24 PM)
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Europe?
Why would I live there?

I can't wait to see how this goes down, EU law managed to get me a £199 Premium Wii U at launch <3
UnluckyKate
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:25 PM)
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In France the CNIL (National Comite for IT liberties) will be all over the Kinect always one watching your living room
PJV3
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:25 PM)
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They probably only care about the UK market anyway. UK leaves EU, we will be drinking Mountain dew and loving it.
Psycho_Mantis
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Farrow

Speaking of law. Aren't there health and safety issues with constantly blasting people with infrared light? (What Kinect uses to read you).

I know long exposure is bad for your eyes.

Its very rare and depends on how powerful the IR light is on the Kinect. Some laser pointers are hazardous but the Kinect will not have an IR pointer that powerful.
McSpidey
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:25 PM)
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How well does MS comply with these rules with the existing 360 and their digital distribution sales (XBLA/GoD)?
Globox_82
Banned
(05-25-2013, 05:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by 8bits

I think it's apparent Microsoft could less about markets outside of the US...and gamers.

Originally Posted by Lagspike_exe

Judging by their presentation, they really don't care.

Originally Posted by EvilMario

Judging by the reveal, Microsoft puts all territories outside of the US at a distance second when it comes to policies and features. Are there laws for specific countries that it might violate as well?

Originally Posted by Duxxy3

Xbone is releasing outside of America?

Cuz someone needs to tell microsoft.


Yup, you guys are spot on. That is why they wasted time on FIFA and exclusive content...so americans can play it....
Nilaul
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by whatevermort

Oh my god Microsoft are going to so pissed when they realise they didn't think about this.

Of course they have. First of all, there's no way that Kinect is sitting there actually watching you, recording you, broadcasting you anywhere. It's just on standby with a voice-activation to turn on. Simple.

It has to be on for you to open control your TV with gestures. Microphones also have to have the option to be turned off I think. It has to be allowed to be disabled completely, or bust.
cw_sasuke
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:26 PM)
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Nvm, wrong thread.
hadareud
The Translator
(05-25-2013, 05:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by 8bits

I think it's apparent Microsoft could less about markets outside of the US...and gamers.

That is indeed apparent.

Unless you were trying to say something different. Couldn't tell.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:26 PM)
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As having just finished my 2nd year of law school, I look forward to seeing what happens in the EU.
Risette
A Good Citizen
(05-25-2013, 05:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by whatevermort

Oh my god Microsoft are going to so pissed when they realise they didn't think about this.

Of course they have. First of all, there's no way that Kinect is sitting there actually watching you, recording you, broadcasting you anywhere. It's just on standby with a voice-activation to turn on. Simple.

Secondly, you can re-sell. There might be shenanigans to do with private sale, but I'll bet MS have thought of a way around that - I don't know, some sort of online license transfer form that's a total hassle but makes it viable. (Or, standard private sale activation codes, like multiplayer codes work these days.)

that is not a private sale
jbug617
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:26 PM)
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Would Microsoft argue they are not selling you the game but a license to the game?
Also Jeff Grestmann says their are options to turn off stuff for the Kinect.
MightyHedgehog
Welcome to the Wasteland.
I hope you're wearing your flak vest!
(05-25-2013, 05:27 PM)
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I'll leave it to the lawyers and varying courts to decide, but you would think MS already had this part of things vetted.
Sanctuary
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Nilaul


:: Another issue is with selling used game.

An author of software cannot oppose the resale of his 'used' licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet," the ruling read. The exclusive right of distribution covered by a license is "exhausted on its first sale"

A customer's has the right to sell any content or device that they have legally purchased without restriction. So a used fee or limiting the re-sellers violates this doesn't it? I mean say your not actually selling it but giving it away for fee to your friend. Your friend has to pay an online fee to microsoft? Then that's already restricting.

It's not about reselling what you already purchased. It's about someone not buying a new item. That's all it's ever been about.
eot
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Farrow

Speaking of law. Aren't there health and safety issues with constantly blasting people with infrared light? (What Kinect uses to read you).

I know long exposure is bad for your eyes.

No, infrared light is just heat radiation. It's harmless unless the power is extremely high in which case you'd notice it because it's hot as all hell.
Biggzy
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by McSpidey

How well does MS comply with these rules with the existing 360 and their digital distribution sales (XBLA/GoD)?

Not just MS, but everyone really who sells digital products.

Originally Posted by SlickShoesRUCrazy

As having just finished my 2nd year of law school, I look forward to seeing what happens in the EU.

Good case study potentially ;)
nephilimdj
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Globox_82

Yup, you guys are spot on. That is why they wasted time on FIFA and exclusive content...so americans can play it....

FIFA games have sales have multiplied in the last few years in NA, FIFA 13 sold 42% more then 12 on release day.
http://investor.ea.com/releasedetail...leaseID=709896

Its a strong brand that any company would be silly to ignore.

We have had similar discussion in the past when EU brought this in and the impact on steam, I think EU will crack down on it and got to wonder how MS will survive.
Last edited by nephilimdj; 05-25-2013 at 05:31 PM.
BibiMaghoo
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Pyscho_Mantis

Its very rare and depends on how powerful the IR light is on the Kinect. Some laser pointers are hazardous but the Kinect will not have an IR pointer that powerful.

This was my first thought, until I watched the reveal again and noticed it says the Kinect can read your heartbeat...

At a distance...

That is concerning to say the least. What type of radiation passes through flesh and yet can still create an image?
iMax
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by 8bits

I think it's apparent Microsoft could less about markets outside of the US...and gamers.

I agree dude. Europe should be grateful.
Miles Quaritch
lemme stick dat Red Ring
(05-25-2013, 05:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Farrow

Speaking of law. Aren't there health and safety issues with constantly blasting people with infrared light? (What Kinect uses to read you).

I know long exposure is bad for your eyes.

Infra red creates heat, so unless it's a crazy powerful IR, it won't be an issue. Regarding IR for eyes, it would be need to substantially more focused to have any kind of impact.
test_account
XP-39C²
(05-25-2013, 05:30 PM)
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I'm not sure that the used games stuff will be much of an issue. At least i havnt heard any prolems with it regarding PC games (those who require you to activate the game online). Maybe it will be bigger with Xbox One though, so it shall be interesting to see what happends regarding that.
Sanctuary
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by BibiMaghoo

This was my first thought, until I watched the reveal again and noticed it says the Kinect can read your heartbeat...

At a distance...

That is concerning to say the least. What type of radiation passes through flesh and yet can still create an image?

MRI, although it doesn't use radiation.
Drencrom
Member
(05-25-2013, 05:30 PM)
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This makes me all giddy, I hope the consumer laws can save us from always on cameras and anti-used game systems.

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