• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF

Chamber
love on your sleeve
(06-14-2013, 10:43 PM)
Chamber's Avatar
Man, The Casting looks like trash now.
zeopower6
Member
(06-14-2013, 10:44 PM)
zeopower6's Avatar

Originally Posted by Computer

Technically, all games are CGI.

Well, when people throw around CG/CGI with games, they tend to mean prerendered cutscenes.

The Dark Sorcerer/Panta Rhei will probably be a standard for gameplay later in the life of the system.
SirIgbyCeaser
Banned
(06-14-2013, 10:45 PM)
SirIgbyCeaser's Avatar
I watched the whole video yesterday. Calling up the less than 30 seconds when multiple goblins show up does not refute my point.
shinobi602
(06-14-2013, 10:46 PM)
shinobi602's Avatar

Originally Posted by SirIgbyCeaser

I watched the whole video yesterday. Calling up the less than 30 seconds when multiple goblins show up does not refute my point.

Look at Uncharted 2 and 3, look at KZ2 and 3, look at GOW3 and Ascension. Now imagine a machine that's about 8x as powerful. You don't think we'll see stuff like Deep Down? Not a doubt in my mind it will happen.
qa_engineer
Member
(06-14-2013, 10:48 PM)
qa_engineer's Avatar

Originally Posted by SirIgbyCeaser

I watched the whole video yesterday. Calling up the less than 30 seconds when multiple goblins show up does not refute my point.


Wasn't your point that they only had to render 2 characters? So do they have to render more than 2 characters for more than 1 minute for it to refute your point.
Last edited by qa_engineer; 06-14-2013 at 10:50 PM.
FoxSpirit
(06-14-2013, 10:55 PM)
FoxSpirit's Avatar
For people who can not believe this is realtime: it's the "face-trick".
Okay, it's not really a trick but basically, if a face is in a screen, your attention will have a strong focus on it. If the face is really, really realistic the whole scene will, given at least adequate graphics, seem really, really realistic because of that face.

If you want to try, ignore the faces and analyse everything else about the screens. Feathers, shoulderpads, the leather-clothing of the sorcerer, the amulet, the staff.

Smoke and mirrors, but this time with image perception psychology.
dragonbane
Member
(06-15-2013, 01:42 AM)
dragonbane's Avatar
Games from Quantic Dream will look this good. And not only by them, but also by Naughty Dog and other talented developers.
People didn't believe The Casting and also doubted Kara. Beyond doesn't only look much better than that, The Last of Us does too. And that game is a TPS.

Quantic Dream WILL match that. They don't spend money on tech demos to bullshit people. They literally create them to see what's possible and to set their own goals accordingly. This obviously means they didn't use nearly all the available power and the RAM of the PS4.


Their track record speaks for itself. Just gonna leave this here again:

Evolution of Quantic Dream's technology since 2006:


2006 ("The Casting" Tech Demo on PS3)


2010 (Heavy Rain Game on PS3)





2011 ("Kara" Tech Demo on PS3)



2013 (Beyond Game on PS3)








2013 ("Old Man" Tech Demo on PS4)




2013 ("The Dark Sorcerer" Tech Demo on PS4; YouTube compressed footage)









2014/2015/2016 (???)



Click to enlarge. No bullshots. All direct feed (except for Sorcerer atm) and realtime.
StuBurns
Banned
(06-15-2013, 01:43 AM)
StuBurns's Avatar
They all seem doable to me. The Division I'm not so sure about though, that was insane.
RPGCrazied
Member
(06-15-2013, 01:45 AM)
RPGCrazied's Avatar
Real time or not, not anytime soon. Maybe late gen PS4 games, but I really do think first year or two or so of the PS4's life won't have games looking like that.
Ploid 3.0
Member
(06-15-2013, 01:58 AM)
Ploid 3.0's Avatar

Originally Posted by Chamber

Man, The Casting looks like trash now.

Yeah you start to notice the flaws and the game render hints. It's like looking at a movie that was impressive years ago and noticing that the color is off for the human in the cg background showing a huge space ship or something. Obvious green screen stuff.
Fancy Corndog
Member
(06-15-2013, 02:00 AM)
Fancy Corndog's Avatar
Yeah I think 3 years down the road we'll look back and think this kind of conversation was funny.
KKRT00
Member
(06-17-2013, 10:49 AM)
KKRT00's Avatar
In gameplay - no, in cutscene - yes.

I would love though to get to Infiltrator tech demo level at the end of this gen.
Jira
Member
(06-17-2013, 11:10 AM)
Jira's Avatar
The important thing to remember about The Dark Sorcerer is they're using all of the PS4 to render this without much if any resources being taken up outside of JUST rendering that room and everything inside of it. Once you start to actually throw in everything that makes up a game (AI, logic, sound, levels, animation, scripting, etc) what you can do graphically will diminish due to less processing power.
XANDER CAGE
WELCOME TO THE XANDER ZONE
(06-17-2013, 11:12 AM)
XANDER CAGE's Avatar

Originally Posted by Metalmurphy

This was QD first PS3 tech demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g9Oq5P0qD8


Does Heavy Rain and Beyond look as good?

Eurgh, I had put this wretched demo out of my mind.
Caddle
Member
(06-17-2013, 11:19 AM)
I will reserve judgement untill it's playable.
Haunted
(06-17-2013, 11:24 AM)
Haunted's Avatar
At least no one has posted those super unflattering Beyond screenshots yet.
potam
Ask me about my terrible taste.
(06-17-2013, 11:37 AM)
potam's Avatar

Originally Posted by Jira

The important thing to remember about The Dark Sorcerer is they're using all of the PS4 to render this without much if any resources being taken up outside of JUST rendering that room and everything inside of it. Once you start to actually throw in everything that makes up a game (AI, logic, sound, levels, animation, scripting, etc) what you can do graphically will diminish due to less processing power.

While all of that is true, we must remember that as the generation goes on, developers become more comfortable with and knowledgeable about the hardware, development tools mature, and new techniques and tricks are introduced.

I suppose it is possible that these guys have already eked out every bit of power from the system, but I doubt it. In a couple of years, I think we'll look back at this as an interesting, maybe slightly-above-par tech demo in terms of graphics.
Bricky
Member
(06-17-2013, 11:44 AM)
Bricky's Avatar

Originally Posted by Jira

The important thing to remember about The Dark Sorcerer is they're using all of the PS4 to render this without much if any resources being taken up outside of JUST rendering that room and everything inside of it. Once you start to actually throw in everything that makes up a game (AI, logic, sound, levels, animation, scripting, etc) what you can do graphically will diminish due to less processing power.

This seems to be brought up alot, but this simply isn't true for QD. They make the actual games look better than whatever they showed before that like alot of people have already shown in this thread.

It is completely acceptable to see this as what PS4-games will (or at least can) look like after a year or so.
iamshadowlark
Banned
(06-17-2013, 11:53 AM)
iamshadowlark's Avatar

Originally Posted by SirIgbyCeaser

Think about it. There are only 2 characters in that scene. And only 1 room with faux green screen.

You do know that the green screen doesn't work the same way as it does in real life. Its there as a joke. And there is literally geometry pouring from everywhere in that one scene.
KKRT00
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:06 PM)
KKRT00's Avatar

Originally Posted by iamshadowlark

You do know that the green screen doesn't work the same way as it does in real life. Its there as a joke. And there is literally geometry pouring from everywhere in that one scene.

Room geometry uses only 1m polygons, about the same as they use per character. Many games today spent for environments more than 5m polygons on medium LoD settings per frame.

BTW KZ:SF uses 500k polygons for whole visible city on the trailer intro [of course whole city has more polys, but we are talking about visible per frame], also uses max 40k polys per character and they LoD them aggressively and even with such low polys numbers, KZ:SF has severe pop-in [both shadows and geometry], same goes for Infamous:SS.
Toxa
Junior Member
(06-17-2013, 12:08 PM)
Toxa's Avatar
The order 1886 looks good too
DBT85
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:36 PM)
DBT85's Avatar

Originally Posted by Toxa

The order 1886 looks good too

Has there been some statement that what we saw of The Order was anything other than a pre render?
SolidSnakex
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:40 PM)
SolidSnakex's Avatar

Originally Posted by DBT85

Has there been some statement that what we saw of The Order was anything other than a pre render?

We also strived to create a seamless experience when it came to the game. The idea was to make sure that you never saw any visual discrepancies or breaks in continuity between gameplay and cinematic. Our game models and our cinematic models are one and the same, and everything is rendered real time in the engine as you play the game. The trailer we presented is a great example of that. What you saw is running in-engine, in-game with no gimmicks. These visuals are what you can expect of the final game when you play it.

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2013/...playstation-4/
Perkel
Banned
(06-17-2013, 12:40 PM)

Originally Posted by DBT85

Has there been some statement that what we saw of The Order was anything other than a pre render?

It was all in-engine. This is how final game will look. If you download gamersyde trailer you will notice that there are aliasing issues.
DieH@rd
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:41 PM)
DieH@rd's Avatar

Originally Posted by DBT85

Has there been some statement that what we saw of The Order was anything other than a pre render?

Various RAD developers on E3 stage, Seth Killian [who works for Santa Monica now] on GiantBomb podcast and Garnett Lee on Weekend Confirmed podcast confirmed that the traler was realtime in-game.

You can personally see aliasing artifacts if you go and download HQ Gamersyde footage.
stryke
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:41 PM)
stryke's Avatar

Originally Posted by DBT85

Has there been some statement that what we saw of The Order was anything other than a pre render?

Seth on Giantbomb was quite adamant that it was all legit.

edit: beaten in real time
flipswitch
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:41 PM)
flipswitch's Avatar
So is in-engine the new word for real time?
Brad Grenz
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:42 PM)
Brad Grenz's Avatar
It says so at the beginning of the trailer, the lead engine programmer from Ready at Dawn said so at Beyond3D, Seth Killian from Sony Santa Monica said so on the Giant Bomb E3 livestream, Garnett Lee (his girlfriend is the SSM producer on the game) intimated as much on Weekend Confirmed, and anyone can go look at the Gamersyde high bitrate 1080p MP4 of the trailer and see the aliasing and pixel crawl that makes it obvious the footage is real-time and in-engine.
DieH@rd
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:43 PM)
DieH@rd's Avatar

Originally Posted by flipswitch

So is in-engine the new word for real time?

It was realtime.
derFeef
lil' bit tasty
(06-17-2013, 12:44 PM)
derFeef's Avatar
The Order and Quantum Break impressed me more because you could actually see a bit of a game there.
ekim
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:44 PM)
ekim's Avatar
I hope so but seeing what The Last Of Us can achieve in that offline rendered cutscenes I think actual gameplay will look worse.
flipswitch
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:44 PM)
flipswitch's Avatar

Originally Posted by DieH@rd

It was realtime.

Yeah, but do they both have the same meaning?
Moosichu
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:54 PM)
Moosichu's Avatar

Originally Posted by flipswitch

Yeah, but do they both have the same meaning?

Depends on who is saying it.
Oroboros+
Junior Member
(06-17-2013, 12:54 PM)
Oroboros+'s Avatar
It was most probably in real time, especially considering the fact that the entire scene took place in a tiny environment, the creators were probably able to push much more high fidelity in terms of models, animations, lighting and FX work.
Nozem
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:55 PM)
Nozem's Avatar

Originally Posted by KKRT00

In gameplay - no, in cutscene - yes.

Maybe not open world games, but there is no reason fighting games can't look this good.
Chumpion
Member
(06-17-2013, 12:57 PM)
Chumpion's Avatar
What makes the Dark Sorcerer demo come alive for me is the subsurface shading. It imparts sooo much realness and depth to the surfaces...
Pound_lb003
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:13 PM)
Pound_lb003's Avatar
Is it possible on PS4? Completely. The really important questions are:

Is it realtime?
What hardware was it running on?
Is it possible with game systems in place?

But yeah, I'm very confident we'll be seeing visuals like that next year.
ComputerMKII
Banned
(06-17-2013, 01:18 PM)

Originally Posted by Pound_lb003

Is it realtime?
What hardware was it running on?
Is it possible with game systems in place?

See:

Originally Posted by Mathezar

Found some cam footage of the tech presentation, not very clear unfortunately and cuts off before its over...

Starts around the 14 minute mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i6TiYLwHW4

nelsonroyale
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:20 PM)

Originally Posted by StuBurns

They all seem doable to me. The Division I'm not so sure about though, that was insane.

All those tech demos looked much more impressive than The Division in terms of visual fidelity. Division seems like the GRAW of this gen. People are going crazy over it now, but in a couple of years there will many games which surpass it. Although, it is the Ground Control devs, and that game really impressed me back in the day.
lefantome
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:25 PM)
lefantome's Avatar
The cast tech demo impressed me for the details the kitchen not for the actress model (ugly!) or acting.

I wasn't impressed as with the dark sorcerer of course.
BigTnaples
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:26 PM)
BigTnaples's Avatar
I don't get people who think Deep Down was CGI. The whole point was to show off the Panta Rie Engine..




That would be like Crytek saying, "Hey Guyz, look at this new version of Cryengine we have been working really hard on, here are some of the features it has!" and then rolling a CGI movie.


Deep Down was in-engine. That is not even up for debate.


Now whether or not we see games at that fidelity on PS4, that is a good question.


After playing about 60% of The Last of Us on my 7 year old PS3, I am pretty confident that Naughty Dog will make make people who thought these trailers were too good to be true look silly in a few years.
zoukka
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:30 PM)
zoukka's Avatar
Those are small enclosed demos. The level of detail is almost impossible to achieve in larger scale. Technically I think the demos can be topped, but will performance be above unstable 30 fps and tearing, who knows...
lefantome
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:32 PM)
lefantome's Avatar

Originally Posted by zoukka

Those are small enclosed demos. The level of detail is almost impossible to achieve in larger scale. Technically I think the demos can be topped, but will performance be above unstable 30 fps and tearing, who knows...

Well give a gta with the same details and lighting of the division and I won't need better graphics for the entire generation.
nelsonroyale
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:36 PM)

Originally Posted by lefantome

Well give a gta with the same details and lighting of the division and I won't need better graphics for the entire generation.

Watch dogs already looks pretty awesome visually to be honest.
BigTnaples
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:42 PM)
BigTnaples's Avatar

Originally Posted by StuBurns

They all seem doable to me. The Division I'm not so sure about though, that was insane.

The Division, while mind blowing to look at, really wont be that hard to achieve graphically IMO.



After watching the video multiple times, it isn't really doing anything super taxing. It just has a nice lighting engine, bokeh DoF, fairly high resolution textures, and some nice effects like smoke and cloth physics. It all comes together very nicely though.


The main reason being the attention to detail. Reminds me of the last of us really. How there is clutter everywhere, and all of the assets are seemingly unique. The world does not feel copy and pasted.


I think if The Last of Us was a native PS4 game, it would blow away the division. The attention to detail and design of the world is like nothing I have ever seen. It it only held back by the hardware in that all of the varied textures and assets that ND created for The Last of Us had to run on PS3. So you get thousands of unique objects, posters, materials, etc, but they are all fairly low resolution.


Imagine TLoU rereleased on PS4 with the original HD textures (assuming ND made them that way), 1080p, 60 fps, with some Bokeh and cloth physics. It would compete very well with Division visually (although The Division is open world) and that would just be a touched up PS3 game.


A theoretical ground up PS4 TLoU would blow everything we have seen out of the water.
Feindflug
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:48 PM)
Feindflug's Avatar

Originally Posted by Kyoufu

First party games probably will. Quantic Dream/Naughty Dog are already blowing my mind on PS3.

I think that the gap between the 1st party and 3rd party games on PS4 will be smaller than the PS3 and that's not because some Sony teams like Naughty Dog or Santa Monica are not capable or talented anymore (they clearly are some of the most talented teams in the industry) but due to the ease of development on the PS4, no more abstract hardware design and good dev tools will most likely mean that the average visual quality on the PS4 will be higher.
Chris_C
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:50 PM)
Chris_C's Avatar

Originally Posted by flipswitch

Yeah, but do they both have the same meaning?

They don't, a cinematic can be rendered in-engine, but offline (the Uncharted and Last of Us cinematics, for example). Real time only means one thing... real time.
zoukka
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:52 PM)
zoukka's Avatar

Originally Posted by lefantome

Well give a gta with the same details and lighting of the division and I won't need better graphics for the entire generation.

Won't happen. Last of us seems to have the most amount of unique decorated rooms and areas in my memory and the scale is still about 100 times smaller than GTA. They would need to have an army of modellers to just create thousands and thousands of unique props and lay them around everywhere.
TucoBenedictoPacifico
Member
(06-17-2013, 01:58 PM)
TucoBenedictoPacifico's Avatar
I surely hope that isn't going to be the level of detail and fidelity they are generally aiming for, because in most cases that would mean sticking to games that are four hours long, strict as corridors, over-scripted and cost 200 millions to produce.
Last edited by TucoBenedictoPacifico; 06-17-2013 at 02:01 PM.

Thread Tools