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Cave Johnson
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(06-27-2013, 09:52 AM)
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*UPDATE

I would like to point out that this is not a "hate" thread. If I had managed to pass myself as such then I deeply apologize for it. I saw the video and many of the points established made me believe that this does merit some discussion. As of yet, the original poster has uploaded the "unedited" version of the video which is confirmed to be on survivor mode. I will also place the original E3 demo AND the PAX demo so that everyone can evaluate the differences between them:

UNEDITED (BEFORE & AFTER DEMO)

ORIGINAL E3 DEMO

PAX DEMO


Update:

Turns out the AI is confirmed to be either a bug exploit or of a lower difficulty setting.

New gameplay "Survivor" setting by metalmurphy: (Thanks!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiJ0ZBGkEUU&hd=1

Turns out enemy has self-preservation at a higher difficulty setting. Video is a lot better when showcasing the AI but still lacks the intensity personally. The brick to the face still lack that "oomph" compared to the E3 demo.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I've stumbled upon a video that compares the final version of the game compared to the E3 demo. Personally, I have enjoyed it with the AI delivering some depth (on Hard Mode). However, I did NOT expect the AI difference to be this drastic. ND stated that they had to tone down the AI for your allies but not the enemies (at least to my knowledge). So far, we really need to elaborate on this "Balance of Power" they've constantly used as a selling point for the game and we're hardly seeing any of it. Observe below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whAma7fOdmM&feature

It is very sad that the game has been toned down to this level not to the extreme levels of Bioshock: Infinite or Aliens: CM but I feel like I'm playing the shareware version of the game. IMO, ND should've at least give us the E3 mode at Survival as it makes no sense for us to run a higher difficulty level with this lower intended design at mind.

/lock if old
Last edited by Cave Johnson; 06-28-2013 at 06:06 AM. Reason: New Videos updated
shagg_187
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(06-27-2013, 09:54 AM)
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They said that they toned down A.I. because they kept on flanking players and the system got very complicated, or some sort.

And no, this is not even CLOSE to Alien: CM.

Look at every E3 demo. Almost all of them had scripted moments to showcase what is possible and what isn't. The tablet features in every E3 demo shown was fake because they replicated all those exactly in every other demo showcasing.

With that said, it would be interesting to see what the A.I. could've done if this was kept.
Last edited by shagg_187; 06-27-2013 at 09:57 AM.
Rojo
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(06-27-2013, 09:57 AM)
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Of all the videos ive seen of people playing non looked as sloppy as this.
PrivateRyan
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(06-27-2013, 09:58 AM)
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I get the point being made but...

Originally Posted by Cave Johnson

I feel like I'm playing the shareware version of the game

Come on now
Spring-Loaded
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(06-27-2013, 09:58 AM)
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Huh, never noticed unarmed enemies rushing me like that. I've had a few instances where they've ran/begged for their life though.

I'd say there's still so far to go before achieving decent enemy A.I. but ND has admitted to toning it down. Love to try out the full thing.
Soulflarz
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(06-27-2013, 09:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by shagg_187

They said that they toned down A.I. because they kept on flanking players and the system got very complicated, or some sort.

Soo the ai was TOO good or something, or was flanking bad?
nofi
Banned for kicks
(06-27-2013, 10:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Cave Johnson

So, I've stumbled upon a video that compares the final version of the game compared to the E3 demo. Personally, I have enjoyed it with the AI delivering some depth (on Hard Mode). However, I did NOT expect the AI difference to be this drastic. ND stated that they had to tone down the AI for your allies but not the enemies (at least to my knowledge). So far, we really need to elaborate on this "Balance of Power" they've constantly used as a selling point for the game and we're hardly seeing any of it. Observe below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whAma7fOdmM&feature

It is very sad that the game has been toned down to this level not to the extreme levels of Bioshock: Infinite or Aliens: CM but I feel like I'm playing the shareware version of the game. IMO, ND should've at least give us the E3 mode at Survival as it makes no sense for us to run a higher difficulty level with this lower intended design at mind.

/lock if old

The video creator's getting loads of stick for this video, most of the comments claiming they've seen the AI do exactly what he says it doesn't.
shagg_187
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(06-27-2013, 10:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by Soulflarz

Soo the ai was TOO good or something, or was flanking bad?

I think in documentary they emphasized it was too broken and that the game was not at all fun or balanced. I maybe wrong but that's what I remember.

Think of the grenades chugging enemies in Halo 3. That shit was broken!
Stabby McSter
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(06-27-2013, 10:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by Spring-Loaded

Huh, never noticed unarmed enemies rushing me like that. I've had a few instances where they've ran/begged for their life though.

I'd say there's still so far to go before achieving decent enemy A.I. but ND has admitted to toning it down. Love to try out the full thing.

Only two enemies have begged for their lives. The rest just run at me. :(
TheVampire
(06-27-2013, 10:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by shagg_187

They said that they toned down A.I. because they kept on flanking players and the system got very complicated, or some sort.

Or could have that previous E3 video been fake scripted?
mullet2000
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(06-27-2013, 10:04 AM)
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Wow, that's really a pretty extreme difference.

I noticed when I played through that the AI really didn't live up to that E3 demo. Still enjoyed the game quite a bit but I was disappointed by that.
shagg_187
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(06-27-2013, 10:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheVampire

Or could have that previous E3 video been fake scripted?

And that as well, as I explained that a lot of E3 demos are flares and puppetry. A lot of times things are placed to show the expected gameplay. Things change from demo to final, always.

My biggest grip was the A.I. for allies, but it made sense why they were so fucking dumbfounded.
Last edited by shagg_187; 06-27-2013 at 10:06 AM.
Aurongel
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(06-27-2013, 10:04 AM)
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I've definitely seen the AI run in fear, I think the reason for their fearlessness in the video is the fact that they have strength in numbers. Searching drawers, some environmental bits and the gun grab from the side all seem to be MIA though.

Regardless, this game's AI is still leaps ahead of almost anything else out there. It just gets nitpicked more because of the hype and the e3 demo being toned down. Video game AI 20 years from now will still have occasional AI quirks.
Blinck
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(06-27-2013, 10:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Soulflarz

Soo the ai was TOO good or something, or was flanking bad?

I'm guessing it was something like Uncharted 3 where you were constantly being flanked and charged at in a not so fair and fun way.
I'm just guessing though.

The A.I. in the Last of Us is overall pretty bad, but for some reason this is more noticeable at the start.
I remember in the first stealth encounter of all I was strangling a dude 3 feet away from another enemy, but since the other enemy was turned the other way he didn't even react...that was very immersion breaking. His friend was suffocating and fighting for his life right behind him and he just stood there.
I think the later encounters (except the last one) are fairly well designed and for some reason this kind of stuff was less noticeable, but still there. The encounters with infected are really cool as well.

Still loved the game to death. The game was more about atmosphere, for me anyway :)
GlamFM
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(06-27-2013, 10:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheVampire

Or could have that previous E3 video been fake scripted?

That would be my guess. Never trust E3 demos.
nib95
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(06-27-2013, 10:06 AM)
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Erm, I think he just recorded any instance of the AI glitching or something. because I've seen the AI do most of those things, and add to that, they're not supposed to react how they have in some of his recorded scenes. I actually found their viewing fov too sensitive at times. Like they could see me from way across a room even when I was in a fairly dark spot.
Vashetti
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(06-27-2013, 10:08 AM)
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Very disappointed that NO enemy grabbed me in the game calling me a "MOTHERFUCKER!" like in the E3 demo.

It's become a bit of an in-joke for me and my boyfriend now. When we get a satisfying kill we comically grunt "motherfucker!"
Cartman86
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(06-27-2013, 10:09 AM)
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Switched to hard by that point so I don't know if the AI is better or if it's just because I didn't play the game the way that video demonstrates (sitting and waiting, getting oneself seen on purpose etc.) All I know is that when I did get seen they either came running toward me to hit me with an object or ran to hide behind cover. Wouldn't be surprised. This is how early stuff works.
dark10x
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(06-27-2013, 10:10 AM)
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The A.I. in the Last of Us is overall pretty bad, but for some reason this is more noticeable at the start.

How do you define bad?

For me, good AI is not about how realistically it reacts to normal stimuli (ie - like real life), rather, how well it works within the confines of the games systems. There is a big difference between sensitive AI and AI designed for fun.

The AI in The Last of Us works brilliantly, I think, offering a perfect blend of semi-realistic behavior with patterns and reactions that allow the player a proper chance at success.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
(06-27-2013, 10:10 AM)
I don't know about you guys but if i don't start shooting human enemies will flank and charge me. The moment i start shooting they put their heads down and try to be quiet.
Guymelef
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(06-27-2013, 10:11 AM)
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Why compare with an awful offscreen?
Napalm_Frank
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(06-27-2013, 10:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by Vashetti

Very disappointed that NO enemy grabbed me in the game calling me a "MOTHERFUCKER!" like in the E3 demo.

It's become a bit of an in-joke for me and my boyfriend now. When we get a satisfying kill we comically grunt "motherfucker!"

I did get people do a ''cinematic melee'' from behind a few times but they don't say shit AFAIR.

But yeah even if the stuff that is in the demo can happen in the game it definately is more ''alive'' in the E3 demo.
Nome
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(06-27-2013, 10:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by Soulflarz

Soo the ai was TOO good or something, or was flanking bad?

In terms of game design, a properly smart AI is only enjoyable if it's very directly showing the player that it's smart.

That's why games generally have enemies call out what they're doing. Otherwise it just seems like it's cheating.
Replicant
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(06-27-2013, 10:12 AM)
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Some of that are not true. In the final version, enemies still run and hide when they realize that you have bigger arsenal. Some even do that so they'll catch you off-guard.
Clear
This post contains disingenuous arguments meant to disguise my fanboyism. Reader beware!
(06-27-2013, 10:13 AM)
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The way the AI is working in his video is really odd, I've played through the game twice and even on Normal I've never seen it act so dumb.

The speed with which he melees that dude down was suspiciously easy for Normal, and as for the brutality being toned down... No. Just no.
Vashetti
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(06-27-2013, 10:13 AM)
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Oh god, watching that video is an eye-opener.

Naughty Dog better patch that shit back in. At least give people the option.

That's the kind of enemy AI I was expecting, one of the big reasons I was excited for the game.

Kinda misleading I think.
CambriaRising
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(06-27-2013, 10:14 AM)
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That video is poorly researched, and misrepresentative.
Gorillaz
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(06-27-2013, 10:14 AM)
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I did the exact same thing when I got to that same part of the demo. If honestly felt like they toned down the...."realness" and fear of the A.I. compared to the E3 demo. There was a sense of "emotional" weight in each gunfight back then that isn't there now. Wondering if they felt it was getting a little too real maybe?

EDIT: or was the A.I. a little too good apparently?
Last edited by Gorillaz; 06-27-2013 at 10:18 AM.
Pazuzu9
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(06-27-2013, 10:15 AM)
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Overall I found the AI to be decent - I never saw the glitches shown in that video apart from one time where a guy was standing motionless on some stairs.
madmackem
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(06-27-2013, 10:16 AM)
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I cant believe one of the points was it being less brutal, WTF!!!!. Not being brutal enough is not something id aim at tlou.
JawzPause
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(06-27-2013, 10:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by shagg_187

They said that they toned down A.I. because they kept on flanking players and the system got very complicated, or some sort.

I understand their reasons for doing this but it makes me sad :(

Anyway regarding OP, I agree in that they could have put this in survivor mode but we don't know what the AI was actually like besides a few videos. This video looks cool but maybe it actually sucked to play against this AI. We'll never know...
Also if you watch this video you can see that they have a sort of cover system too, which I am so happy they took out.
Last edited by JawzPause; 06-27-2013 at 10:30 AM.
Zemm
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(06-27-2013, 10:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by Cave Johnson

I feel like I'm playing the shareware version of the game

fucking hell.
dark10x
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(06-27-2013, 10:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by Vashetti

Oh god, watching that video is an eye-opener.

Naughty Dog better patch that shit back in. At least give people the option.

That's the kind of enemy AI I was expecting, one of the big reasons I was excited for the game.

Kinda misleading I think.

I wouldn't say they mislead people so much as the game simply changed during development.
blitzcloud
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(06-27-2013, 10:20 AM)
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the enemy AI is not like that on hard. I've totally seen them destroying me and not staring at me like they do in this video. It could have something to do with it. Also they expressed fear in my version as far as I know (the "he's got a gun" and all that).
Replicant
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(06-27-2013, 10:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Blinck

I'm guessing it was something like Uncharted 3 where you were constantly being flanked and charged at in a not so fair and fun way.
I'm just guessing though.

OMG, I still have nightmare about that showdown within the ship's cargohold on Crushing. FFS, enemies left, right, front, and back without mercy.

But it's completely false to say that the enemies on TLoU don't flank you. They do. They may not as accurate as real-life flanking but if you let them, they'd close the loophole where you can escape undetected.
1.21Gigawatts
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(06-27-2013, 10:22 AM)
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Aren't some NaughtyDogs in here? Maybe we should ask if they could add that kind of A.I. as DLC. A new even harder difficulty.
nib95
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(06-27-2013, 10:23 AM)
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Here's the play through of that exact segment on Survivor. The guy making the vids makes a point of thinking the game is very realistic on Survivor mode, though the Ai still has it's issues now and again, on the whole it is very sharp. Even running alerts them from long distances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1vRimiOb1Y
Last edited by nib95; 06-27-2013 at 10:26 AM.
TheNiX
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(06-27-2013, 10:23 AM)
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I thought the AI was good enough that it kept the game fun and challenging.

Most people don't realize that overly smart AI can destroy fun pretty quickly. I hated the AI in FEAR for how often they would just disappear and the next thing you know you're being suppressed and flanked.
blitzcloud
Banned
(06-27-2013, 10:24 AM)
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having said that, i've had a few AI to be broken (as in, they are staring somewhere and not moving). I consider that to be just a glitch and nothing else.
xbhaskarx
(06-27-2013, 10:26 AM)
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Originally Posted by Spring-Loaded

I'd say there's still so far to go before achieving decent enemy A.I. but ND has admitted to toning it down. Love to try out the full thing.

Why would they do this?? Isn't that what different difficulty levels are for? Nah fuck it, just weaken the whole game...
Cave Johnson
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(06-27-2013, 10:26 AM)
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Originally Posted by PrivateRyan

I get the point being made but...

Come on now

Originally Posted by Zemm

fucking hell.

I didn't mean to insinuate the game is bad. It's just that - compared to the E3 demo - the differences IMO is practically WORLDS apart. The final game AI wasn't that bad and I played it through Hard Mode. Maybe he was playing at the easiest difficulty which is why we are seeing a lot of contention here. I just want to create awareness of the situation and why ND should implement "subtext" next to difficulty levels (like Hitman: Absolution) indicating what kind of obstacles we are to face rather than leaving it as a standalone description.

Originally Posted by xbhaskarx

Why would they do this?? Isn't that what different difficulty levels are for? Nah fuck it, just weaken the whole game...

EXACTLY, this is what I don't get! ND could've gone away from the easiest of difficulty game tropes and they stuck with your typical "more resistant enemy, lower health" bullshit. A pure missed opportunity, really. How hard is it to implement replace the Listen Mode with a lean system (like the one at the E3 demo) or having better AI intelligence. What's the point of a higher difficulty if it's just a more frustrating version of the normal one?
Last edited by Cave Johnson; 06-27-2013 at 10:30 AM.
Blackthorn
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(06-27-2013, 10:29 AM)
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I encountered nearly every AI gimmick from the E3 demo in my playthrough, just nowhere near as concentrated. The demo was obviously showing off everything at once.
Pazuzu9
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(06-27-2013, 10:29 AM)
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Ok... so I just watched the E3 2012 stage demo for the first time (was on media blackout for this game throughout).

I now see why people are upset. The final product is nothing like that in terms of flawless companion and enemy AI. It's nowhere near as bad as the video in the OP suggests, but it's nowhere near as good as the E3 demo either.

Was the ND guy really playing live? Maybe, but with custom scripts to make it all work without a hitch. That was not the genuine AI there.
nib95
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(06-27-2013, 10:31 AM)
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Here's a segment from that vid on Survivor where the guy gets spotted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1vRimiOb1Y&t=9m58s
Cave Johnson
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(06-27-2013, 10:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by Blackthorn

I encountered nearly every AI gimmick from the E3 demo in my playthrough, just nowhere near as concentrated. The demo was obviously showing off everything at once.

Really, please elaborate? How did you manage to wrestle the gun from the enemy? Or having a bloody nose while ground fighting? Also, did the enemy grabbed your arm and punched your face while you were aiming? What difficulty setting were you playing on?
Jobbs
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(06-27-2013, 10:32 AM)
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I think part of it is that the original demonstration was "idealized" and not 100% authentic.
Perkel
Banned
(06-27-2013, 10:33 AM)

Originally Posted by Soulflarz

Soo the ai was TOO good or something, or was flanking bad?

Even if you are amazing player, outnumbered and outflanked means death.

Uncharted 1&2 on crushing had special forces constantly trying to outflank you
R0nn
Member
(06-27-2013, 10:35 AM)
I still think the AI is one of the best in the business. Very convincing. This comparison notwithstanding.

One of the most memorable moments for me was when some dude came around the corner, spotted me, noticed I had a gun and he immediately went "Oh shit, he's got a gun!" and he dodged away instead of charging at me.
Vashetti
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(06-27-2013, 10:35 AM)
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#NaughtyDogPatchTLOUTrueAI
Cave Johnson
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(06-27-2013, 10:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by Perkel

Even if you are amazing player, outnumbered and outflanked means death.

Uncharted 1&2 on crushing had special forces constantly trying to outflank you

You can offset the balance had enemies received realistic damage like limping while being shot in the leg or being unable to shoot if shot in the arm. By doing this you don't necessarily have to "kill" everyone, just tactfully utilizing the best of your abilities to survive. The whole point of a survival game is to work away around disadvantages. This is why the sandbox nature of the game is workable without bordering around being trivial.
Last edited by Cave Johnson; 06-27-2013 at 10:43 AM.

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