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Klocker
(08-27-2013, 07:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Albert Penello

Wow. My grip on truthfulness was that tenuous?

Perhaps, it could be taken at face value that we are telling the truth. I haven’t been up here posting spin or BS. I’ve been pushing hard to be transparent in how we talk about what’s going on with the platform. And I’m clear when I can’t comment on things.

Yet, somehow since this truth doesn’t jibe with the popular belief online, we are being dishonest. I get that we’ve had a rough few months, but at some point I’d like to think we get the benefit of the doubt, at least on things that make sense logically. You know, Occam’s Razor and such.

Here’s truth:

There never has been any sort of yield or performance issues with our GPU/ESRAM/KINECT/ETC. It’s simply not true, and I’ve heard the rumors online so often I actually went to the silicon engineers to ask them again. Our HW program (knock-on-wood) has been on schedule and again, we’ve had the opportunity to increase performance even later in the program. You don’t have yield issues then upgrade the clock speed by 6%. Again, simple logic here.

Second, if we were having yield issues – why did our country delay not include markets like the US, Canada, or UK? Those represent the vast majority of our volumes. Anyone can look at GFK Chart-Track and see the volumes in the regions that slipped. Here’s an assignment for the GAF Detectives: go look at historical sell-thru rates of consoles by region, then tell me what percentage of global consoles sales were represented by those affected markets. (hint: it’s a small percentage). Each and every region is important to us, don’t get me wrong, but anyone can look at those numbers and deduce it has nothing to do with volume.

I’m going to state it again, just like I said here and to OXM: The delay was localization related. Besides needing local language support, we also need to prop-up local Live, Apps, a Marketplace, and a variety of other services. We bundle that together as “localization” in messaging, but there is more to shipping in a region then text and voice translation. The offset to that, like we’ve said, X1 is region free and while that’s slightly more inconvenient, it will still allow people in the local countries to enjoy launch. Again, not something we’d be promoting if we were having issues with volume.

I’m certainly not going to change everyone’s mind, I get that. And I know there is tendency to believe there are many more diabolical things going on behind the scenes. In this case, we are being fully transparent. And FYI – we passed FCC certification back in early summer, before PS4.

Lastly – anything that was shown on a box, was shown on near-final retail HW. Our Dev Kits and Retail Units are the same.

Albert “spoonful of sugar” Penello

thank you for putting up directly with people calling you a liar and standing up and telling us the truthfacts


it is refreshing and ignore those who do not want to believe as they will never believe and want no one else to believe the truth if it is painting you in a fair light
Vol5
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:32 PM)
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Fair play I suppose. Albert comes here to defend his product in the face of wild rumours and seems like a straight up guy. Ill be prepared to eat massive crow come launch if it holds up.
Wickerbasket
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vol5

Fair play I suppose. Albert comes here to defend his product in the face of wild rumours and seems like a straight up guy. Ill be prepared to eat massive crow come launch if it holds up.

We'll see when the launch numbers come out anyway.
JABEE
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Albert Penello

If that were true, then why delay any markets and just ship lower volumes everywhere?

We can go around-and-around. If you want to look for flaws or alternatives to my statement, they could be found.

All I can do is come on here and tell the truth. I have no reason to lie, nothing to be gained. The number of units we ship is what we will ship. The call on the regions has been made.

Why would I come and defend this only later to be called a liar when the actual numbers are released? The TRUTHFACT will be known when we launch.

If I didn't have a good idea of what was going on, and have faith that my statements will be affirmed in a few months, then it would be super easy to just shut-up about it. But it's SO wrong and uninformed, I felt the need to address it.

I'm sorry if what I'm saying collides with the leaks that have been going on, but the time and effort to debunk them... I just can't do that for everything.

1. There would be something to be gained from a PR perspective if the delay was caused by a language issue rather than a lowered shipping forecast or a strategic move. Coming into this thread and trying to dispel the notion that Microsoft is valuing certain tiered customers. Changing this perception is something that is of value to your company and to you as an agent of that company.

2. I don't believe there is a way that your statements can be proved unless the launch occurred and the units were distributed as originally announced at the E3.

There are a finite number of units that can be produced within a period of time. It's much easier to have product on the shelves when delivering product to 13 countries than it is for 21. Those units would otherwise have been distributed to 8 other countries. I don't understand how the story you have would be revealed as a TRUTHFACT when launch comes. That's without considering demand for the Xbox One in each specific region.
barkers crest
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Albert Penello

Second, if we were having yield issues – why did our country delay not include markets like the US, Canada, or UK?

So how about a release date then?

Right now Amazon says I will not get my Xbox one preorder delivered till Jan 2014.

Based on reported 2:1 preorder ratio between PS4, which I ordered weeks after xboxone but is scheduled to arrive on the 15th, and xboxone, I get the impression that xbox launch will have much less inventory than ps4 launch.

Less Inventory == hardware issues/yield rumor confirmation

That is the message most of us are getting, anyways.
Racer1977
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:38 PM)

Originally Posted by Iacobellis

https://twitter.com/aegies/status/372210356703072256



Is this guy for real?

Is he being serious when he talks about accents? In the UK, you only need travel 25 miles up the road to hear widely different accents, broad Lancastrian, Yorkshire, Souse, Mancs, then onto Geordies, Cockney's, Brummies etc.

Edit - of course that could just mean Kinect cannot understand the strong British regional accents, whereas a living, breathing human can often tell the difference from town to town, nevermind whole regions.
Last edited by Racer1977; 08-27-2013 at 07:45 PM.
ypo
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:39 PM)
If you want everyone to see the TRUTHFACT as you've put it then give us a number to compare. Saying you'll see after sales data is out is pretty stupid without something to compare to. What's the projected number?
Hana-Bi
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:39 PM)
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I think the biggest problem was the services for those countries. Like entertainment deals with local companies.
kaching
"GAF's biggest wanker"
(08-27-2013, 07:40 PM)
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Continuing to answer people's questions with questions isn't exactly a straightforward way to "come on here and tell the truth".
BloodMoney
Banned
(08-27-2013, 07:40 PM)

Originally Posted by Albert Penello

Second, if we were having yield issues – why did our country delay not include markets like the US, Canada, or UK?

How can there be a delay without an announced release date.....................................
Last edited by BloodMoney; 08-27-2013 at 08:13 PM. Reason: spilt my chilidog all over my pet sea otter
Iacobellis
Junior Member
(08-27-2013, 07:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Racer1977

Is he being serious when he talks about accents? In the UK, you only need travel 25 miles up the road to hear widely different accents, broad Lancastrian, Yorkshire, Souse, Mancs, then onto Geordies, Cockney's, Brummies etc.

Yes. He was also very serious about the secret sauce.
metareferential
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:41 PM)
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Bullshit.

Some of the countries they left out use the same languages as tier 1 countries.

And most of those countries also use the same distribution channels as tier 1 countries (see Switzerland's case, where we have 4 official languages, 3 of which are represented on Kinect's voice controls and 360's dashboard. Games come from Italy/Germany/France).

And even the size of the left-out markets isn't a viable argument: Austria is in (which is as small as a market as any tier 2 euro countries).

They want to have the most units ready for bigger markets. Why?

Manufacturing issues.

#teamCBOAT
mangochutney
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:43 PM)

Originally Posted by Albert Penello

I'm saying that it has nothing to do with Hardware, and I'm giving evidence that it has nothing to do with HW.

Of course, it's a platform launch. As we were evaluating the SW schedule, we made the very hard call to scale back those territories to give our SW teams some breathing room.

With all due respect you haven't given any evidence at all, you've only given your word.

As a company representative this should generally be taken as fact until proven otherwise, but it isn't evidence!

Evidence would be documents showing your schedules with loads of nice numbers and graphs on how all the targets have been met. That is what would shut the nay-sayers up, but obviously you aren't going to be able to disclose such a thing.

Originally Posted by metareferential

Bullshit.

Some of the countries they left out use the same languages as tier 1 countries.

And most of those countries also use the same distribution channels as tier 1 countries (see Switzerland's case, where we have 4 official languages, 3 of which are represented on Kinect's voice controls and 360's dashboard. Games come from Italy/Germany/France).

And even the size of the left-out markets isn't a viable argument: Austria is in (which is as small as a market as any tier 2 euro countries).

They want to have the most units ready for bigger markets. Why?

Manufacturing issues.

#teamCBOAT

Not necessarily. I mean they're claiming pre-orders are way above 360 levels, what if those levels were not anticipated? This isn't a yield issue but just a limitation of the production line output volumes. You can classify it as a manufacturing issue but it isn't really of the same ilk as poor yield.
Last edited by mangochutney; 08-27-2013 at 07:47 PM.
Katana_Strikes
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Albert Penello

Second, if we were having yield issues – why did our country delay not include markets like the US, Canada, or UK?

Because those countries are incredibly important to MS... you guys! If you delayed those countries, you'd be in a bit of a situation compared to your competitor, who would have a potential 1-4 month lead with much cheaper hardware and had all the big games. Where cutting down your launch countries and therefore not spreading out your allocations anywhere near as much, means you can double down on your most important ones. Which means more consoles for those countries than they would have had without this delay, thanks to your yield issues ;)
Raist
(08-27-2013, 07:48 PM)

Originally Posted by Albert Penello

I'm saying that it has nothing to do with Hardware, and I'm giving evidence that it has nothing to do with HW.

Evidence by saying that you're not delaying in 13 countries out of 21?
I'm sorry, but if you do have limited supplies (for whatever reason) then yes, you'll shift whatever you can from minor markets and don't leave a huge headstart up for Sony to grab. The fact that you're not delaying in these markets proves nothing at all.

And now GC HW was near final dev kits? I thought it was final, retail SKUs. And frankly, I really doubt the actual dev kits (not retail turned into some kind of dev kit as you've announced) have the exact same specs than retail SKUs.

The problem is, you might be absolutely legit. But you're a MS exec, and given the waves of "stealth" MS astrosurfers we've all of a sudden have on GAF, on top of the stream of BS and flat out lies some of your colleagues have been spreading in interviews and twitter posts since May, people will automatically suspect the credibility of your statements on these boards.
Epsilon
Banned
(08-27-2013, 07:49 PM)

Originally Posted by PopcornMegaphone

Anyone post this?

China’s Economic Daily News reports that Microsoft is having yield issues with Xbox One components

The plot thickens.
Ricerocket
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by PopcornMegaphone

Anyone post this?

China’s Economic Daily News reports that Microsoft is having yield issues with Xbox One components

When they say they expected 7 million, but only got 6.2 million, it means 800k were duds and wasted money?
BloodMoney
Banned
(08-27-2013, 07:50 PM)
.
Last edited by BloodMoney; 08-27-2013 at 07:52 PM. Reason: double-post
JABEE
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by PopcornMegaphone

Anyone post this?

China’s Economic Daily News reports that Microsoft is having yield issues with Xbox One components

Can you confirm or deny this report, Albert?
3rdamention
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Napalm_Frank

They still haven't implemented the languange of switz.



Lol, looks like he may have read my post in a previous thread, thus bringing up the beautiful land of Switzerland. I explained this in the other thread, but I will explain it here to just show how the whole "Localization" is absolute rubbish, at least for Switzerland, and Albert is the one that brought up Switzerland.


In Switzerland, there are 3 official languages recognized on the nation level within the Federal Administration of the Swiss Confederation, they are German, French and Italian.


The Xbox One is releasing this November in Germany, France, and Italy, but NOT in Switzerland. Yet Albert just recommends importing one instead, without taking into account any exchange rates/shipping charges that just drive up the already high price of the Xbox One. Why not release in Switzerland if you will have localization complete in Germany, France and Italy?


I feel its pretty obvious, the delay is for reallocation, not localization, at least for my example of Switzerland.

Sooooooooo, yeah, Switzerland, lol. Hey, he brought it up.
Bundy
Banned
(08-27-2013, 07:52 PM)

Originally Posted by JABEE

Can you confirm or deny this report, Albert?

You really think MS will confirm that they have problems with their hardware, 2 months prior launch?
They already have the (translation/Kinect, etc.) excuse.
Pug
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:53 PM)

Originally Posted by Albert Penello

Wow. My grip on truthfulness was that tenuous?

Perhaps, it could be taken at face value that we are telling the truth. I haven’t been up here posting spin or BS. I’ve been pushing hard to be transparent in how we talk about what’s going on with the platform. And I’m clear when I can’t comment on things.

Yet, somehow since this truth doesn’t jibe with the popular belief online, we are being dishonest. I get that we’ve had a rough few months, but at some point I’d like to think we get the benefit of the doubt, at least on things that make sense logically. You know, Occam’s Razor and such.

Here’s truth:

There never has been any sort of yield or performance issues with our GPU/ESRAM/KINECT/ETC. It’s simply not true, and I’ve heard the rumors online so often I actually went to the silicon engineers to ask them again. Our HW program (knock-on-wood) has been on schedule and again, we’ve had the opportunity to increase performance even later in the program. You don’t have yield issues then upgrade the clock speed by 6%. Again, simple logic here.

Second, if we were having yield issues – why did our country delay not include markets like the US, Canada, or UK? Those represent the vast majority of our volumes. Anyone can look at GFK Chart-Track and see the volumes in the regions that slipped. Here’s an assignment for the GAF Detectives: go look at historical sell-thru rates of consoles by region, then tell me what percentage of global consoles sales were represented by those affected markets. (hint: it’s a small percentage). Each and every region is important to us, don’t get me wrong, but anyone can look at those numbers and deduce it has nothing to do with volume.

I’m going to state it again, just like I said here and to OXM: The delay was localization related. Besides needing local language support, we also need to prop-up local Live, Apps, a Marketplace, and a variety of other services. We bundle that together as “localization” in messaging, but there is more to shipping in a region then text and voice translation. The offset to that, like we’ve said, X1 is region free and while that’s slightly more inconvenient, it will still allow people in the local countries to enjoy launch. Again, not something we’d be promoting if we were having issues with volume.

I’m certainly not going to change everyone’s mind, I get that. And I know there is tendency to believe there are many more diabolical things going on behind the scenes. In this case, we are being fully transparent. And FYI – we passed FCC certification back in early summer, before PS4.

Lastly – anything that was shown on a box, was shown on near-final retail HW. Our Dev Kits and Retail Units are the same.

Albert “spoonful of sugar” Penello

For some, no matter what you post they won't believe you.

Thanks for the heads up.
jhferry
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by JABEE

1. There would be something to be gained from a PR perspective if the delay was caused by a language issue rather than a lowered shipping forecast or a strategic move. Coming into this thread and trying to dispel the notion that Microsoft is valuing certain tiered customers. Changing this perception is something that is of value to your company and to you as an agent of that company.

2. I don't believe there is a way that your statements can be proved unless the launch occurred and the units were distributed as originally announced at the E3.

There are a finite number of units that can be produced within a period of time. It's much easier to have product on the shelves when delivering product to 13 countries than it is for 21. Those units would otherwise have been distributed to 8 other countries. I don't understand how the story you have would be revealed as a TRUTHFACT when launch comes. That's without considering demand for the Xbox One in each specific region.

This and no release date. Stop playing games, maybe on gamefaqs this BS would work but some of us have been through a ton of console launches.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by PopcornMegaphone

Anyone post this?

China’s Economic Daily News reports that Microsoft is having yield issues with Xbox One components

http://udn.com/NEWS/STOCK/STO3/8122035.shtml

The original sourced article. Somebody translate it.
KoopaTheCasual
Banned
(08-27-2013, 07:53 PM)

Originally Posted by mangochutney

With all due respect you haven't given any evidence at all, you've only given your word.

As a company representative this should generally be taken as fact until proven otherwise, but it isn't evidence!

Evidence would be documents showing your schedules with loads of nice numbers and graphs on how all the targets have been met. That is what would shut the nay-sayers up, but obviously you aren't going to be able to disclose such a thing.

Not necessarily. I mean they're claiming pre-orders are way above 360 levels, what if those levels were not anticipated? This isn't a yield issue but just a limitation of the production line output volumes. You can classify it as a manufacturing issue but it isn't really of the same ilk as poor yield.

Thank you. I'm sorry Albert, but nothing you say without hard numbers is 'evidence'. It's just you saying what you're allowed to say without breaking NDA. And I don't understand how launch would prove otherwise, unless you completely outship the PS4, which is well ahead of schedule, going by FCC certs.

Originally Posted by PopcornMegaphone

Anyone post this?

China’s Economic Daily News reports that Microsoft is having yield issues with Xbox One components

andherewego.gif
BloodMoney
Banned
(08-27-2013, 07:54 PM)

Originally Posted by Bundy

You really think MS will confirm that they have problems with their hardware, 2 months prior launch?
They already have the (translation/Kinect, etc.) excuse.

Katana_Strikes
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by JABEE

Can you confirm or deny this report, Albert?

Give him some time... he's just gone to the silicon engineers... AGAIN to ask them :P
DrM
Redmond's Baby
(08-27-2013, 07:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bundy

They already have the (translation/Kinect, etc.) excuse.

Or they just can say that they are unprepared or better "slightly behind schedule". The best excuse every company can use to hide potential production/software problems or just that they made big mistakes with projected allocations and are now trying to douse the fire, caused by early preorder numbers.
Last edited by DrM; 08-27-2013 at 07:58 PM.
oVerde
Banned
(08-27-2013, 07:55 PM)
This, and this again, they are giving more units to where more units are being sold. (hypothetical) They have X units per country, some countries didn't even match 1/3 of pre-sales, move that units to where the money is.
Last edited by oVerde; 08-27-2013 at 08:02 PM.
JABEE
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by CassidyIzABeast

http://udn.com/NEWS/STOCK/STO3/8122035.shtml

The original sourced article. Somebody translate it.

I used Chrome Translation and it appears to be linking the 10% decrease in production to yield issues and lens yield issues. It even references the European delay.
mangochutney
Member
(08-27-2013, 07:58 PM)

Originally Posted by KoopaTheCasual

Thank you. I'm sorry Albert, but nothing you say without hard numbers is 'evidence'. It's just you saying what you're allowed to say without breaking NDA. And I don't understand how launch would prove otherwise, unless you completely outship the PS4, which is well ahead of schedule, going by FCC certs.

Albert said the Xbox One has passed the FCC already, and prior to the PS4.

Don't forget you can request confidentiality from the FCC and they won't publish until your requested date.
Teriyaki
Member
(08-27-2013, 08:00 PM)
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Missed the original yield rumor thread but did cboat provide evidence that ms is having these issues?
3rdamention
Member
(08-27-2013, 08:00 PM)
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"This is the part of the internet that's frustrating, because everybody wants to assume there's a [units volume] issue. And yet I'm showing real hardware here at Gamescom - a real, final, retail kit. Which I have yet to see my friends show me.




Wow, dat jab at Sony, lol. BTW, what about FCC Certification? Assuming that hasn't been asked yet.


Has the Xbox One passed FCC Certification?
Pug
Member
(08-27-2013, 08:01 PM)

Originally Posted by oVerde

This, and this again, they are giving more unit to where more units are being sold. (hypothetical) They have X units per country, some countries didn't even match 1/3 of pre-sales, move that units to where the money is.

It's not rocket science is it?

Its obvious what MS is doing it's just seems that everyone loves a conspiracy theory. Funny thing is one of the AMD technical guys who posts over at B3D post months ago regarding the so called yield issues.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
(08-27-2013, 08:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Teriyaki

Missed the original yield rumor thread but did cboat provide evidence that ms is having these issues?

No, Microsoft pushing back release date in Europe was good enough for most people. Had Microsoft never announced a specific number of countries we'd never know.
Pug
Member
(08-27-2013, 08:02 PM)

Originally Posted by Teriyaki

Missed the original yield rumor thread but did cboat provide evidence that ms is having these issues?

No.
SneakyStephan
Banned
(08-27-2013, 08:03 PM)
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It must suck to lie for a living.
Wereroku
Member
(08-27-2013, 08:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by mangochutney

Albert said the Xbox One has passed the FCC already, and prior to the PS4.

Don't forget you can request confidentiality from the FCC and they won't publish until your requested date.

I wish Albert had given the FCC ID number for the xbox one the closest I can find is https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/repor...fcc_id=C3K1537 and funny enough its confidentiality only lasts until November 21. Anyway that would prove the date.
DrM
Redmond's Baby
(08-27-2013, 08:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wereroku

I wish Albert had given the FCC ID number for the xbox one the closest I can find is https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/repor...fcc_id=C3K1537 and funny enough its confidentiality only lasts until November 21. Anyway that would prove the date.

Maybe you just uncovered X1 release date.
oVerde
Banned
(08-27-2013, 08:05 PM)

Originally Posted by Teriyaki

Missed the original yield rumor thread but did cboat provide evidence that ms is having these issues?

Cboat and evidences are not something that work together, you must believe his truthfacts.

Originally Posted by Wereroku

I wish Albert had given the FCC ID number for the xbox one the closest I can find is https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/repor...fcc_id=C3K1537 and funny enough its confidentiality only lasts until November 21. Anyway that would prove the date.

Originally Posted by DrM

Maybe you just uncovered X1 release date.

SPOT ON?
Last edited by oVerde; 08-27-2013 at 08:11 PM.
henhowc
Banned
(08-27-2013, 08:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by PopcornMegaphone

Anyone post this?

China’s Economic Daily News reports that Microsoft is having yield issues with Xbox One components

Was their source crazy buttocks on a train? :D
KoopaTheCasual
Banned
(08-27-2013, 08:06 PM)

Originally Posted by mangochutney

Albert said the Xbox One has passed the FCC already, and prior to the PS4.

Don't forget you can request confidentiality from the FCC and they won't publish until your requested date.

Oh that is nice, but I was simply stating with (apparently) both consoles going through FCC early, that would mean production on both is sailing along. This would make it even stranger if XB1 got outsold by PS4 anywhere, if Albert is telling the truth. I don't expect Albert to be vindicated when those launch day numbers of both consoles hit, but I would be very happy to be proven wrong.

And also, now I'm very curious about this Chinese report. Aren't parts/system being manufactured in Foxconn? Wouldn't this be an excellent 3rd party source for the yield issues?
Freki
Member
(08-27-2013, 08:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Albert Penello

It’s simply not true, and I’ve heard the rumors online so often I actually went to the silicon engineers to ask them again.

Could you do me/us a favor and ask them how exactly they arrive at the 204GB/s peak performance number for eSRAM?
We can totally understand the 109GB/s number (4*256bit*853MHz) but we don't really know how the peak number is calculated...
Wereroku
Member
(08-27-2013, 08:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by DrM

Maybe you just uncovered X1 release date.

Doubt it looks like something related though since it has the dual band ant.
Valkyr Junkie
Member
(08-27-2013, 08:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by DrM

Maybe you just uncovered X1 release date.

The release date as it was in May, probably not any longer.
KoopaTheCasual
Banned
(08-27-2013, 08:10 PM)
The Chinese reports and FCC certs seriously deserve their own thread. Alas, my babby Junior status does not allow me to create threads. Can someone make one?
test_account
XP-39C²
(08-27-2013, 08:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by BloodMoney

How can there be a delay without an announced release date.....................................
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1...8tdoo1_500.jpg

They have said November, so it has a release "date". As long as Xbox One comes out in November, it wont be any delay.
derfybzh
Member
(08-27-2013, 08:11 PM)
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So much hate and anger in this topic.

Kinect 1 was a mess in France and it has only improved a little bit, I can understand that voice recognition is a big no go if not done correctly in market where Xone will be shipped.

If kinect is the center of the MS strategy there is no use for a half assed experience.
Ricerocket
Member
(08-27-2013, 08:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by henhowc

Was their source crazy buttocks on a train? :D

No the source is http://udn.com/NEWS/STOCK/STO3/8122035.shtml

I don't think china knows about cboat but they sure as hell do make the products there.

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