Yeah - that is true. Developers risk losing their jobs if they do disagree. Publishers is what all of this effort should be directed to.You know it's not the choice of the Devs. This is being pushed primarily by the Publishers as an alternative revenue stream.
#mytime!=yourmoney
This one is a bit longer but it might get the problem accross?
#NoF2P60$Games
Uhm, would it sound confusing to casual gamers?
#NoF2P60$Games
Uhm, would it sound confusing to casual gamers?
Ok. i ll change that. Makes me look dumb (I mean: even dumber than I am...)Originally Posted by SneakyStephan
Op you should have limited it to 'developers are taking your time hostage with arbitrary grind and microtransactions'
Your production cost analogies etc only give the defense force ammo to deflect and distract instead of staying on point
(also it's to lose, not to loose:p)
I agree though, we are going to end up with f2p design in full price games, and the worst kind of f2p (arbitrary inconveniences) , not the dota kind
It's already here and unless we make it stop gaming will never be the same, do you guys really want chores and work to go into your games?
The effort put into a game should be in the form of a learning curve (which ironically developers are conditioning gamers to shy away from... but that's for another thread), not filling bars or ticking boxes, and the reward and drive should be gameplay , not filling bars and removing inconveniences
there is no reason for a game to be designed to not be as pleasant and convenient as possible from a gamer standpoint, and the only reason developers do it is to nickle and dime their fans.
Please, for the sake of everyone, do not support the developers that do this.
We are now a hair's breadth away from paying for bagspace in 60 dollar games as well , and every other f2p inconvenience you can think of, and we've already crossed the line with arbitrary grind
It's almost too late to go back... we make a stink right now and vote with our wallets or freemium will become the standard
It's almost like they WANT us to wait for the $20 release that comes with more stuff already unlocked 6 months down the line...
I am personally against the entire idea of IAP for all games (because I take then very seriousky--but I know not everyone is like me). If you feel like your ROI for your game is or will be too low and you start looking for ways to get the consumer to give you more money than a single, up-front cost, then your game is already compromised from a philosophical standpoint.
Maybe the effect is minimal, maybe it isn't. It still bothers me that instead of delivering complete, rich and fulfilling experiences, many developers/suits are simply all business and no art. There is no integrity in these IAP.
Sometimes, this stuff is "tacked on" a la Path of Exile, but this is few and far between.
Maybe the effect is minimal, maybe it isn't. It still bothers me that instead of delivering complete, rich and fulfilling experiences, many developers/suits are simply all business and no art. There is no integrity in these IAP.
Sometimes, this stuff is "tacked on" a la Path of Exile, but this is few and far between.
Really, the problem is when you "think" the game has changed due to microtransactions
Meaning the story experience has somehow changed for the worse because thought had to be given to how these transactions would affect gameplay and the experience has changed and made worse by these.
Wouldn't you need a before and after to show what it would be without, and then with these transactions, and compare the two showing how the game is worse.
If these microtransactions were added after the fact (game completed, then went back and added the ability to "skip") I don't see the point of this thread.
If you believe the game designers made the grinding more demanding so that purchasing the ability to "skip" certain sections of the game is required, then it sounds like a nuisance.
Meaning the story experience has somehow changed for the worse because thought had to be given to how these transactions would affect gameplay and the experience has changed and made worse by these.
Wouldn't you need a before and after to show what it would be without, and then with these transactions, and compare the two showing how the game is worse.
If these microtransactions were added after the fact (game completed, then went back and added the ability to "skip") I don't see the point of this thread.
If you believe the game designers made the grinding more demanding so that purchasing the ability to "skip" certain sections of the game is required, then it sounds like a nuisance.
I interviewed Jon Chey of Blue Manchu Games earlier this month and we had a long talk about F2P games (and by extension IAP). There are ways to do it right and make you WANT to pay for a free game... it just takes someone with a desire to make a good game first and a payment model second.Originally Posted by zenosparadox
I am personally against the entire idea of IAP for all games (because I take then very seriousky--but I know not everyone is like me). If you feel like your ROI for your game is or will be too low and you start looking for ways to get the consumer to give you more money than a single, up-front cost, then your game is already compromised from a philosophical standpoint.
Maybe the effect is minimal, maybe it isn't. It still bothers me that instead of delivering complete, rich and fulfilling experiences, many developers/suits are simply all business and no art. There is no integrity in these IAP.
Sometimes, this stuff is "tacked on" a la Path of Exile, but this is few and far between.
There is one thing I believe that needs to be proven for this to work. That the grind is, without a shadow of a doubt, being extended out further than ever before in order to push buying the in game currency. That it becoming so excessive that buying the currency is the only way to make it bearable.
Prove that and you have something. Because this movement is way late and is lacking in cold hard facts to raise eyebrows where they need to be raised.
Prove that and you have something. Because this movement is way late and is lacking in cold hard facts to raise eyebrows where they need to be raised.
I edited the OT to delete my cost/Monopoly/price brilliant analysis.
And so the world will never know what genius I am... :-(
And so the world will never know what genius I am... :-(
I have never bought a single DLC this gen because i think it did a dis-service to me as the consumer. I bought only one expansion this whole gen, and that Infamous Festival of Blood. As long as these micro transactions donīt hinder progress, and make it extremely difficult then i donīt mind. I wonīt pay money for a game then unlock it with paying more money. Publishers can go fuck themselves with milking us for money.
It's also users and consumers. It wouldn't be there if people weren't buying it.You know it's not the choice of the Devs. This is being pushed primarily by the Publishers as an alternative revenue stream.
Now that I'm older, I don't mind a little bump here and there as I don't have 40 hours to grind something out. I paid $5 for points in NBA2k14 and it was well worth it. Doubled my enjoyment of the MyCareer (since I suck at the game but still want to get better and play). But I'm not going to spend 20 hours grinding for those tokens which others will do just as naturally as breathing.
I play on easy.
I don't play competitively.
These options are great now that I'm older. They just monetized the Game Genie and Cheat Codes. You don't have to use them.
But as I mentioned, if you change the dynamic of your game to push people to purchase these, for example if those VC points in 2K15 took 4 times as long to earn ... then we have a problem.
But this has been going on for years, dating back to Tiger Woods with the "unlock all courses" because a lot of users complained about not having courses open for playing against friends and such.
Exactly. I have not seen this change. I've seen in it the F2P games like Puzzles & Dragons but I haven't seen this in a lot of AAA games. Unless you count Forza 5 withholding the LeFerrari (which could go either way, they may have paid a pretty penny for that and need to recoup, who knows except them and they won't say).There is one thing I believe that needs to be proven for this to work. That the grind is, without a shadow of a doubt, being extended out further than ever before in order to push buying the in game currency. That it becoming so excessive that buying the currency is the only way to make it bearable.
Prove that and you have something. Because this movement is way late and is lacking in cold hard facts to raise eyebrows where they need to be raised.
Last edited by flyinpiranha; 11-21-2013 at 05:13 PM.
I want a regulatory board, and shame stickers on every game deemed to pass a threshold of microtransaction content (perhaps if microtransactions have a cumulative value of more than half of the RRP, assuming no repeat purchases).
We will.I edited the OT to delete my cost/Monopoly/price brilliant analysis.
And so the world will never know what genius I am... :-(
We will speak of your genius in the decades ahead as we enter a gaming utopia unburdened by greedy publishers forcing their evil monetizations schemes on us.
Your sacrifice will not be forgotten.
A wild Monster Hunter Frontier appears!There is one thing I believe that needs to be proven for this to work. That the grind is, without a shadow of a doubt, being extended out further than ever before in order to push buying the in game currency. That it becoming so excessive that buying the currency is the only way to make it bearable.
Prove that and you have something. Because this movement is way late and is lacking in cold hard facts to raise eyebrows where they need to be raised.
It uses Covet.
It's super effective!
I don't think we can really change this. There is always going to be grinding and more and more devs (read: publishers) are making money off players paying to skip it. If you don't like a game because of it all you can really do is not buy the game
I would gladly pay a small fee to skip the tedious hours of grinding in any grind happy game.
You want to grind your life away...
I don't...
Why would you want to take that option away from the consumer?
Microtransactions are fine. If you want more content you can buy it, if it is not worth it to you then don't.
You want to grind your life away...
I don't...
Why would you want to take that option away from the consumer?
Microtransactions are fine. If you want more content you can buy it, if it is not worth it to you then don't.
I am lacking time (kids coming home) and would appreciate some help completing the OT.
We need to name all the biggest games that use F2P model.
Please describe what kind of monetization we are talking about for each.
Can someone do that? And then I ll add it to the OP?
We need to name all the biggest games that use F2P model.
Please describe what kind of monetization we are talking about for each.
Can someone do that? And then I ll add it to the OP?
Not when you design your game to practically force player to buy their way out of the grinding.Originally Posted by Clockwork5
I would gladly pay a small fee to skip the tedious hours of grinding in any grind happy game.
You want to grind your life away...
I don't...
Why would you want to take that option away from the consumer?
Microtransactions are fine. If you want more content you can buy it, if it is not worth it to you then don't.
Why do you have to pay for it? Cheats used to be free. Easy modes used to be free.Originally Posted by Clockwork5
I would gladly pay a small fee to skip the tedious hours of grinding in any grind happy game.
You want to grind your life away...
I don't...
Why would you want to take that option away from the consumer?
Microtransactions are fine. If you want more content you can buy it, if it is not worth it to you then don't.
It is, apparently (as I've never played the game) much. much, much worse. You buy passes that have a determined duration (a day, 3 days etc.) that raises the possibility of certain rare items to drop. And the drop rate of the rare items are ridiculously low. RIDICULOUSLY low.Originally Posted by EsotericManiac
but how does this compare to the grind that a regular retail version of monster hunter has?
Edit: at least, to add to MH Frontier's defense, it is going to be distributed as F2P on the new release.
Games with IAPs have their design changed in order to incorporate IAP's. How much the actual game design is changed depends on the game and developer. If there is no asinine grind, there is no reason to purchase unlocks. Turn 10 will never come right out and say Forza 5 introduced more grind to entice players to purchase tokens, even if asked directly, I expect them to lie. This goes for every other company that introduces micro transactions into full price games.
They will all say it's for the benefit of the players as it allows them access material sooner, or skip things they don't necessarily like, but lets be honest here. It only benefits developers and publishers and the more this practice is allowed to continue, the more it will intrude into games. The wait and see approach is akin to sticking your head in the sand. The longer this goes on and the more established it is, the harder it will be to fight it.
IAP's to purchase content ahead of time changes the game design in order to substantiate the IAP. But I'm sure no developer that releases a full priced game with this garbage will ever actually admit to that, as that statement could possibly lead to gamer's flying it as their flag and rallying behind it in a concerted effort to stop the practice.
Ignore it now, allow it to gain more traction and by the end of this new generation it will be the norm. New gamers that just entered into console gaming with the Xbox One and PS4 probably think this is normal. Everyone else knows its a drastic change from the beginning of last generation. I dont know why DRM caused such uproar, while being nickel and dimed does not. I guess people care more about buying used, trading in, and borrowing games in order to have more freedom and possibly save money, but generally dont give a shit about being up charged after a game purchase. I assume its because the amounts are usually small and hidden behind tokens. If these tokens were not used and the actual monetary value was shown for the unlock I suspect there would be less sales.
They will all say it's for the benefit of the players as it allows them access material sooner, or skip things they don't necessarily like, but lets be honest here. It only benefits developers and publishers and the more this practice is allowed to continue, the more it will intrude into games. The wait and see approach is akin to sticking your head in the sand. The longer this goes on and the more established it is, the harder it will be to fight it.
IAP's to purchase content ahead of time changes the game design in order to substantiate the IAP. But I'm sure no developer that releases a full priced game with this garbage will ever actually admit to that, as that statement could possibly lead to gamer's flying it as their flag and rallying behind it in a concerted effort to stop the practice.
Ignore it now, allow it to gain more traction and by the end of this new generation it will be the norm. New gamers that just entered into console gaming with the Xbox One and PS4 probably think this is normal. Everyone else knows its a drastic change from the beginning of last generation. I dont know why DRM caused such uproar, while being nickel and dimed does not. I guess people care more about buying used, trading in, and borrowing games in order to have more freedom and possibly save money, but generally dont give a shit about being up charged after a game purchase. I assume its because the amounts are usually small and hidden behind tokens. If these tokens were not used and the actual monetary value was shown for the unlock I suspect there would be less sales.
I support this and I have been boycotting games whose game design incorporates such monetization schemes for years now. I even skipped Forza 4 because I was already sickened by its avalance of DLC, exclusive pre-order shit and more-expensive-editions. Likewise I refuse to play F2P games because the pricing model in 99% of F2P games affects the gameplay (I am aware of rare exceptions such as Dota or PoE).
Originally I was planning to get an Xbone in 2 or 3 years but if these types of games become more widespread on the console, I will gladly not buy it at all. Of all the new consoles available now, I'm actually closest to buying a WiiU right now.
Originally I was planning to get an Xbone in 2 or 3 years but if these types of games become more widespread on the console, I will gladly not buy it at all. Of all the new consoles available now, I'm actually closest to buying a WiiU right now.
How can you be that naive? The hours of tedious grind are (in many cases) artificially built into these games to make you pay for skipping them. The fact that people are actually falling for this is making me lose faith in human intelligence.Originally Posted by Clockwork5
I would gladly pay a small fee to skip the tedious hours of grinding in any grind happy game.
You want to grind your life away...
I don't...
Why would you want to take that option away from the consumer?
Microtransactions are fine. If you want more content you can buy it, if it is not worth it to you then don't.
Last edited by Bedlam; 11-21-2013 at 05:55 PM.
Regulatory board sound very plausible but what basis of the regulation will be? What kind "grinding" is tolerable enough for fully-priced game to have a legitimate microtrasanction? We really need more academics on video gaming like the movie dudes back then when setting up regulatory boards.I want a regulatory board, and shame stickers on every game deemed to pass a threshold of microtransaction content (perhaps if microtransactions have a cumulative value of more than half of the RRP, assuming no repeat purchases).
how low is ridiculously low?It is, apparently (as I've never played the game) much. much, much worse. You buy passes that have a determined duration (a day, 3 days etc.) that raises the possibility of certain rare items to drop. And the drop rate of the rare items are ridiculously low. RIDICULOUSLY low.
Edit: at least, to add to MH Frontier's defense, it is going to be distributed as F2P on the new release.
and I've play PSO2, i'm well aware of what real "ridiculously low" drops are
What game does this?Not when you design your game to practically force player to buy their way out of the grinding.
Easy modes still are free. Cheats used to be on a per game basis and a lot of them didn't have them anyway.Originally Posted by Mt Heart Attack
Why do you have to pay for it? Cheats used to be free. Easy modes used to be free.
Many of these things just take that "30 hour game" down to a "10 hour game" for people. Or take out repetition that games use to extend 'length'. If I could have purchased gold in WoW legit, I would have. I spent WAY too much time in that game on the shit that wasn't even really the game like farming metals and gathering shit.
Some games I enjoy the grind (Forza, Monster Hunter, ACIV) and others I don't (WoW, NBA2K14) and I would rather get to a more competitive level with my stats to enjoy the meat of the game.
People get freaked out and paranoid that the game is being balanced towards encouraging people to pay more money instead of being able to play normally and unlock content/progress that way.Originally Posted by Clockwork5
I would gladly pay a small fee to skip the tedious hours of grinding in any grind happy game.
You want to grind your life away...
I don't...
Why would you want to take that option away from the consumer?
Microtransactions are fine. If you want more content you can buy it, if it is not worth it to you then don't.
A valid concern, but a lot of people just make this assumption that it basically automatically hurts a game when it doesn't have to.
I wholeheartedly agree.
This is one of the reasons why i consider not to pass into next-gen.
This is one of the reasons why i consider not to pass into next-gen.
To those who think we need definitve proofs of what we say: why not?
BUT
Let's not forget it's not a debate between devs and gamers. What we need is to make enough noise so they know they can't do it anymore. They know what they do... we don't need to get in a technical debate to prove our point: just to let everyone know that their dear game they just bought for 70 is broken and is actually a trojan to sell you more and more stuff...
We need to scare them, not to convince them.
Don't you think?
BUT
Let's not forget it's not a debate between devs and gamers. What we need is to make enough noise so they know they can't do it anymore. They know what they do... we don't need to get in a technical debate to prove our point: just to let everyone know that their dear game they just bought for 70 is broken and is actually a trojan to sell you more and more stuff...
We need to scare them, not to convince them.
Don't you think?
And why are they rising?Originally Posted by chickdigger802
It is all bullshit though, but with game cost rising while games are still $60. What can they do?
It's not our fault that developers/publishers can't correctly budget their games.
If you make a CoD or GTA sequel, you can raise your budget as high as you want - because you could literally shit in the case and lots of people would still buy it.
However if you make a Hitman sequel, you just shouldn't. Especially when it also ruins the gameplay at the same time.
Pay to win especially in multiplayer. As in people who have extra money buy packs to unlock weapons etc.... Itīs akin to hacking these game and giving hackers the advantage to win over everyone else.I am lacking time (kids coming home) and would appreciate some help completing the OT.
We need to name all the biggest games that use F2P model.
Please describe what kind of monetization we are talking about for each.
Can someone do that? And then I ll add it to the OP?
My biggest fear is Candy Crush type games that come to consoles as in you canīt proceed after certain level without paying or doing social crap.
Exactly.To those who think we need definitve proofs of what we say: why not?
BUT
Let's not forget it's not a debate between devs and gamers. What we need is to make enough noise so they know they can't do it anymore. They know what they do... we don't need to get in a technical debate to prove our point: just to let everyone know that their dear game they just bought for 70 is broken and is actually a trojan to sell you more and more stuff...
We need to scare them, not to convince them.
Don't you think?
Developers definitely know that these are not convenience options. They are purposefully turning games into vehicles to sell more stuff. I remember reading articles about ex-F2P developers who left their company because they themselves were disgusted by the philosphy behind those games.
Some of you are incredibly naive if you think the game design is not influenced by the monetization strategies, as if they were added after the game was finished just as a "bonus". Whole games are starting to be designed around monetization strategies, and not just f2p games.
So right now: here are the options:
#mytime!=yourmoney
#NoF2P60$games
#noconsoleF2P (but i think it's not good as the problem is not F2P, it's F2P we paid 60 bucks)
#NoRetailF2P
#NoPAymium
Come on men. Give me more.
#mytime!=yourmoney
#NoF2P60$games
#noconsoleF2P (but i think it's not good as the problem is not F2P, it's F2P we paid 60 bucks)
#NoRetailF2P
#NoPAymium
Come on men. Give me more.
Yes you do. They provide a service that a lot people use. It IS a technical debate because you need to show that ACIV has included an unnecessary grind in order to make people pay. You need to show that NBA2K14 has changed their leveling so you almost 'have to buy' points.To those who think we need definitve proofs of what we say: why not?
BUT
Let's not forget it's not a debate between devs and gamers. What we need is to make enough noise so they know they can't do it anymore. They know what they do... we don't need to get in a technical debate to prove our point: just to let everyone know that their dear game they just bought for 70€ is broken and is actually a trojan to sell you more and more stuff...
We need to scare them, not to convince them.
Don't you think?
What is your argument without that? "I don't like this, it should stop, here are some others that don't like this". I think the burden of proof is on this 'cause' because people need to see what is "missing" or what is "being changed" in order to force payment structures. Without that, it's "just an option for people".
That's not something that has any ground. This argument came up with the Rewind feature in Forza, people saying it would "ruin" the game when it's AN OPTION and I personally loved it.
There are some games I enjoy the grind and some I don't. I have 160 hours in MH3U and way too many in WoW before the grind just got to me. I have tons of hours spread between Forza's and Gran Turismos ...
#$60PaidFor$60PlayedSo right now: here are the options:
#mytime!=yourmoney
#NoF2P60$games
#noconsoleF2P (but i think it's not good as the problem is not F2P, it's F2P we paid 60 bucks)
#NoRetailF2P
#NoPAymium
Come on men. Give me more.
Last edited by flyinpiranha; 11-21-2013 at 05:39 PM.
http://www.destructoid.com/jimquisit...y-258971.phtmlOriginally Posted by Seanspeed
A valid concern, but a lot of people just make this assumption that it basically automatically hurts a game when it doesn't have to.
Every day that passes makes me even more happy that I'm going Wii U exclusive this gen.Should have bought the Wii U, dumbasses.
industry is going to crash at some point because of all this crap.
i don't have a problem with game publishers trying to "sell more stuff"
like character customizations and things of that nature. i'll never purchase them but I can see others getting into it. it's something extra that will allow them to get more enjoyment out of their game
like character customizations and things of that nature. i'll never purchase them but I can see others getting into it. it's something extra that will allow them to get more enjoyment out of their game
I wouldn't be able to say, the only impressions I've got are from some Japanese players on the Frontier threads. Like these:Originally Posted by EsotericManiac
how low is ridiculously low?
and I've play PSO2, i'm well aware of what real "ridiculously low" drops are
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...87&postcount=7
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...87&postcount=5
Not all games with microtransactions are like that, though. That's what you're not getting.How can you be that naive? The hourse of tedious grind are (in many cases) artificially built into these games to make you pay for skipping them. The fact that people are actually falling for this is making me lose faith in human intelligence.
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