NeoGAF

Wow this is fucked up.

Originally Posted by Klocker

Or just play the game and earn the credits in game to buy them


This is strictly for those that do not want to sit through the game to get to that point and is totally optional

For them, the money is probably worth it. If you don't agree don't buy tokens and earn them in game. I don't see the issue with options for people with more money than time

Originally Posted by AlexMogil

or you can earn it with credits

carry on

Tertullian addressed this incorrect mindset in another thread.

I'm always amazed when someone claims that these kinds of microtransactions don't affect design or gameplay at all, and you can ignore them and have no less lovely an experience than you would have had if this predatory business model had never reared its ugly head.

Sure, right: the designers don't design for microtransactions at all. They don't build in any incentives to spend more money. They tweak progression just perfectly so that the rate at which you acquire new stuff is just perfect, and it wouldn't be any more fun to get stuff faster. They're totally optional, guys! BTW, would any of you gentleman like to buy one of the many fine bridges I have for sale?

There is no such thing as a game with microtransactions whose design is not tainted by them. There is no such thing. Every game with microtransactions builds in incentives to spend more money; every game with microtransactions is designed to ensure that the optimal experience is one in which the publisher gets more of your money. It's just that it's acceptable in games which are free up front because hey, they're free up front. But in a $60 retail game? Come on.

"Pay so that you don't have to play" microtransactions are particularly odious, because they reveal the underlying bad design of any game they're in. If I'm paying so that I don't have to play the game, what does that say about the minute to minute gameplay? It says it's not fun. It says it's a slog, something negative, something I endure rather than enjoy so that I can get the arbitrary rewards I have been conditioned to want. It says that the game has little to offer besides a skinner box, at least past a certain number of hours.

Can you imagine if Super Mario 3D World had microtransactions that allowed you to buy green stars for $1, so that you can get out of the chore of actually playing the levels? Would anyone buy that? Of course not, because playing the level to get the stars is the game, and it's extremely fun. If I'm paying for cars in a racing game because, man, I don't want to race for one more hour, what does that say? It says that the moment-to-moment gameplay is not fun, at least after a certain number of hours, and it says that the game was designed so that I would not acquire cars as fast as I want to, so that I would rather spend real money to get something than actually play the game I already paid $60 for.

Plus with as many features as Forza 5 is missing this bullshit makes it even worse. Maybe if they spent less time figuring out how to screw the customer they'd have more time to implement fun features.

So you can earn the cars with in game credits as well, so how long would it take to earn enough to buy just that 1 £32.50 car?.

I'm guessing it must be one heck of a long grind if it costs £32.50 cash.

The true cost of DRM reversal?

I will not be buying Forza at all and I got KI for free and will not be purchasing a single thing for it. They will not nickle and dime me. I'll be very wary of MS first-party games, going forward, and will not support this trend.

I hope there are more that are like me.

Aight its kinda disgusting i have to agree.
The thing is they are pushing this system because it obviously works for them. People are that stupid to spent cash on this bullshit. Actually i dont mind them doing it, as long as it does not affect game balancing. And in forza 5 it doesnt.
I always looked at this Microtransactions as a way of cheating you pay money for.
People doing that are pathetic, i cant take them serious.

And with this news I have completely lost any interest in the future of this series. Thanks MS for saving me money, I guess! :-/

Microsoft's gotta make up for the $200M they spent upgrading that controller somehow. Not to mention the $2B they're in the hole with the Xbone so far.

Disgusting, though. Microsoft could become synonymous with Microtransactions if they're not careful.

Is getting cars really that hard in Forza 5?

I'm not talking about ALL cars, since unlocking all content in almost any video game will take someone a while, but if I play couple of hours a day, how many cars am I looking at by the end of the week?

Originally Posted by GhaleonEB

Pretty awful, especially since things are likely to progress even further from here. I'd read that most of MS's launch games are like this, are they all this bad?

From what i can gather the only one that's more dishonest is Crimson Dragon in that it forces you to grind in order to advance (or you can just buy gems or something). Ryse has some xp stuff but I haven't heard anyone on any podcasts (gb, WC) complain about it.

Dead Rising doesn't appear to have anything.

The forza stuff sounds kinda shitty and I hope the Horizon team doesn't follow their lead too closely. Granted, in a lot of these cases you can still buy the stuff by just playing the game for a lot longer but still, it's not a great path to start walking when you are already charging full retail price.

Originally Posted by Derrick01

I don't think they're as bad as this but from what I saw in a different thread it seems like Dead Rising 3 and one other game, can't remember if it was crimson dragon or lococycle, are the only major exclusive on XB1 that don't have microtransactions.

From what I heard Crimson Dragon is just as gross as Forza. Maybe even more so, since they are basically selling a free to play game for 20$.

Whoever actually buys a car for 32$ deserves to get as screwed as they are getting.

Only way to show a company like MS this shit is unacceptable is to not purchase the whole product. You will get a much better product next time around.

LOL this is so funny actually... If the game was free to download and play then I would understand all this... but are they expecting player will pay full and then spend even more to buy extra content?

Originally Posted by Seanspeed

I posted this is in the other thread, but it seemed to have been forgotten pretty quickly. In regards to my defending this in the case of Forza:

After learning a bit more about how Forza 5 works, I must say, they definitely have made some changes that are, without a doubt, designed to encourage people to buy cars with real money to the detriment of the game experience.

Seems like earning potential and car prices haven't changed. That's the good news.

But these few things all combine to make a pretty big and noticeable difference:

- No cars unlocked as you level. There is no logical, game-enhancing reason this was taken out. Its something that most everyone enjoyed. Some tweaks could have been to the 'progression' of cars you unlocked, but certainly no one wanted the whole system taken out.

- Manufacturer affinity is gone. This was something that also could have used some tweaking, but was otherwise a very good idea. Before, you could basically get free upgrades quite quickly. That could have used changing. It was definitely too quick. But again, people liked the system and it didn't warrant taking out. The fact that you can use tokens to buy upgrades now makes it blatantly obvious what the intentions were here.

- Free Play no longer allows you to drive any car in the game. Before, while some cars were quite expensive, it didn't stop people from the enjoyment of driving them if they wanted to. You just wouldn't own the car, couldn't customize it or race it in career. This was a fantastic compromise, as you could test drive anything you wanted and even if you couldn't afford an expensive car you really liked, you could still get to experience it out on-track. With that gone, it really pushes at the car collector types to pay real money.

- No buying/selling paints/setups/vinyls. You can still make some money off of this, but there will clearly not be any sort of ecosystem built around this like before. No reason for this to have happened. People *loved* the way it was.

- Buying cars and upgrades, the game definitely treats 'car tokens' as an equally viable way of bartering. Every step of the way, prices are given in credits and tokens, with equal font size and all, even going as far as having a little pop-up menu to 'confirm' whether you're going to buy with credits or tokens.

It all amounts to a blatant attempt at encouraging people to spend more money. All at the detriment of the game from several important angles.

So I was wrong here guys for defending this. I didn't realize it was going to be that bad. Its definitely not like previous Forza's at all and is totally shameful.

All that said, I still don't feel microtransactions are inherently evil. Previous Forza's were fine. Other games do ok with it, too.

Oh, wow. That is some corporate america bullshit.

their blatant attempt to rip people off is so completely obvious that it isn't even funny.

I'm more interested in seeing the credit breakdown for how you obtain them in-game.

Maybe I'm wrong but wasn't GT5 initially supposed to be a game based around microtransactions? Every cars were to be bought with real money if I remember correctly. At least it was a model that was advertised by Kazunori Yamauchi around E3 2005, in the wake of the Vision Gran Turismo trailer, resulting in a backslash that made him fall back to a safer formula.

How long would it take to earn enough credits for the best cars and what would you be doing e.g. racing the same single track/race repeatedly or the same set of tracks or are there a few different events you can do to make the grind less boring?

This is no different than Tiger Woods offering to let you buy clubs and balls instead of playing and earning them in game.


This is purely optional for people with more money than they need to do with what they want


The rest of us can just get all the same cars by playing through the game

Originally Posted by IAmRandom31

Whoever actually buys a car for 32$ deserves to get as screwed as they are getting.

Only way to show a company like MS this shit is unacceptable is to not purchase the whole product. You will get a much better product next time around.

The bigger problem, though, is what effect the presence of the micro-transactions had on the design with regard to progression. You probably have to grind to get the best cars in this one, which was never something I had to do in Forza 4.

If T10 decided to make it F2P I would drop all of my complaints against it. I just hate that they are charging full price for this game and blatantly changing the way it plays to encourage players to pay out even more for microtransactions. I mean $60 for the game, then another $50 for a season pass, then a terrible credit earning ratio from playing, then DLC cars that only give the option of purchasing the cars rather than giving them to you.

It's horrible.

Where the fuck are the gaming press in all of this. Oh right they all have digital versions with everything unlocked from the start.

I really wish there was a website or magazine out there who review games as we play them, not with all the options and content unlocked from the start. It makes reviews completely pointless when it comes to games like these. The experience they have is totally different to the experience players have at home, and we have to fucking pay for this shit unlike them.

Jason, if you are out there, I think Kotaku has the balls to do a massive fucking exposé on the practice of microtransactions in full priced games. It could shake the foundations of the games industry as we know it if you could get to the bottom of it.

There's some misunderstanding here.
You don't need to pay real money to buy cars ingame; they can be bought the usual way, by racing and earning ingame money.
It doesn't look like a lot of grinding either tbh, since you earn money rather quickly and even when you are not playing your drivatar earns money for you.

T10 just gives the option to impatient/stupid/rich fellas to get those cars sooner.

Not that this makes it less evil. What T10 is doing (especially by HOLDING BACK content so they can sell it back to you as DLC later) is repulsive, as is taking advantage of impatient/stupid/rich fellas, luring them by removing the ability to drive each car from the get go in free race.

Im surprised ign , kotaku or polygon haven't picked this up.

Originally Posted by ArkkAngel007

I'm more interested in seeing the credit breakdown for how you obtain them in-game.

Same here. Credit and token prices.

Originally Posted by MajorMelchett

So you can earn the cars with in game credits as well, so how long would it take to earn enough to buy just that 1 £32.50 car?.

I'm guessing it must be one heck of a long grind if it costs £32.50 cash.

Yes, I would like to know this too before actually jumping to any conclusions.

1. what is the average net-payout for the 1st place with all possible bonuses (no assists, pro AI, simulation setting, etc)?

2. which amount of money can be earned by self-sustained grind of Rivals? (as in FM4, where you deliberately do not push someone's Rival in order to maximise the profits with every next run with Rival above)?

3. How long EXACTLY can take to earn 1-million? One hour? Two hours?

4. Also, I would like to know what is the length of the average race?

Holy fuck, that is some expensive DLC. Milking their fans to the extreme.

Originally Posted by MajorMelchett

So you can earn the cars with in game credits as well, so how long would it take to earn enough to buy just that 1 £32.50 car?.

I'm guessing it must be one heck of a long grind if it costs £32.50 cash.

That Lotus E21 costs

Two million or 4,000 tokens was confirmed by me.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/fo...howThread.aspx

From the Eurogamer review

A series will, on average, net the player in excess of 110,000 credits for just under an hour's effort - but with some of the premium racecars costing well over a million, it's a somewhat brutal grind.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...sport-5-review

So if you believe Eurogamer's numbers, should take a bit more than 18 hours to get that 2 million credit car

Originally Posted by Naminator

Is getting cars really that hard in Forza 5?

I'm not talking about ALL cars, since unlocking all content in almost any video game will take someone a while, but if I play couple of hours a day, how many cars am I looking at by the end of the week?

Look at it this way, in Forza 4 every time you leveled up you get to choose a free car from a pre defined line up. This happens for the first 50 levels, so you eventually level up 50 times and get 50 cars for free, no in game money needed. After level 50, leveling up means getting around 50,000 - 150,000 credits.

Basically you get rewarded for playing the game a lot.

Originally Posted by Beant

They were too busy saying they like the fact that there are very many less tracks, so you can get to know them better. AdamSessler literally said that.

Originally Posted by Zinthar

The bigger problem, though, is what effect the presence of the micro-transactions had on the design with regard to progression. You probably have to grind to get the best cars in this one, which was never something I had to do in Forza 4.

Nope... they increased the payout timing and reduced costs on most of the cars

Originally Posted by MormaPope

Look at it this way, in Forza 4 every time you leveled up you get to choose a free car from a pre defined line up. This happens for the first 50 levels, so you eventually level up 50 times and get 50 cars for free, no in game money needed. After level 50, leveling up means getting around 50,000 - 150,000 credits.

Basically you get rewarded for playing the game a lot.

They removed car rewards in Forza 5. Among other things.

Originally Posted by StoopKid

Im surprised ign , kotaku or polygon haven't picked this up.

This is Gran Turismo's chance to comeback with a great game that comes out the box with access to all of the awesome cars. Forza can really only get away with this is they don't fear losing sales for doing it. If GT makes them lose sales by offering a better deal then we may see Forza go back to the old way.

Pipe dream. But we can hope.

Next gen is looking like shit.

I wonder if this was Microsoft's own doing.

Originally Posted by Klocker

Nope... they increased the payout timing and reduced costs on most of the cars

Then I stand corrected. If the progression is fine this is really a non-issue.

Originally Posted by firehawk12

Next gen is looking like shit.

Still looking pretty good on PS4.

Originally Posted by NullPointer

They removed car rewards in Forza 5. Among other things.

I know, I was just describing how Forza 4 operates versus Forza 5.

Originally Posted by NullPointer

They removed car rewards in Forza 5. Among other things.

I'm pretty sure that lack of storefront and auction house was based on this as well. I could make a few millions a day on storefront selling my stuff and then I would share the money with others via Auction House.

Now it's all removed so you either grind like crazy or you pay with real money.

Originally Posted by teiresias

Guys guys, "Sony will do the same thing!"

Doubt it unless third party enforces them to do these things....

Originally Posted by Prince Vultan

Still looking pretty good on PS4.

If GT6 has "buy credits to buy cars", I can only imagine what GT7 will look like.

Originally Posted by Ding-Ding

Don't shout too loud as GT6 has microtransactions. We just dont know how they will be implemented.

I dont like microtransactions but if they get the balance right, I dont really care (I wont buy them regardless). If it feels like the developer has slowed down progression in game to try to force microtransactions, then we have a big fucking problem .

Yeah. And the fact that Ryse has the too i see this as something all future ms games having. And if sony is experimenting on it with GT6, I am very scared of the future. If we thought last gen was bad with DLC its about to get a whole lot worse.

Its like NO MORE ONLINE PASSES we will only sodomize you now.

Did reviews detract/bring this up?

Originally Posted by Ding-Ding

Don't shout too loud as GT6 has microtransactions. We just dont know how they will be implemented.

I dont like microtransactions but if they get the balance right, I dont really care (I wont buy them regardless). If it feels like the developer has slowed down progression in game to try to force microtransactions, then we have a big fucking problem .

Ding-ding

I think we have a big fucking problem.

Originally Posted by Beant

They were too busy saying they like the fact that there are very many less tracks, so you can get to know them better. AdamSessler literally said that.

Does not mean anything.

Dan Greenawalt literally said how FM5 will have greatest graphic engine ever produced for the driving game and then said how daytime changes can't be done because of such superior engine.

One minute later he said how FM5 tyre-model is better then F1 teams have and then concluded they can't make wet surfaces because it would be too complex for the tyre-model.

My mind was beyond disbelief during that interview. From that point on I am amazed how anyone can take that man seriously.

Originally Posted by TimeEffect

Did reviews detract/bring this up?

Adam Sessler gave it a 5/5. He also said he liked the fact that everyone was crashing into each other.

Originally Posted by TimeEffect

Did reviews detract/bring this up?

Gametrailers did, it was a FYI sidenote though...f@@# I dont like where this gen is heading..