NeoGAF

ArkkAngel007 · (11-23-2013, 09:15 PM)

Originally Posted by rac

Adam Sessler gave it a 5/5. He also said he liked the fact that everyone was crashing into each other.

He brought up in the Ryse review he was having enough fun to not mind the grind in Forza 5 (didn't feel it was a grind iow) to take issue with that system, but couldn't say the same for what he felt was utterly pointless upgrades and boring gameplay in Ryse.

You also can't look at the review without looking at how someone approached it. Sessler wasn't looking to specifically unlock or complete, nor does it seem like he dabbles much in that genre.

The way he went about playing the game was far more different than what Eurogamer did.

jabuseika · (11-23-2013, 09:15 PM)

Originally Posted by AlexMogil

Buy your packs of 500k and 1M from the store today.

We are boned.

To be fair, you get those 1 million credits by preordering from Amazon, for no extra charge.

Just like you get custom livery cars if you preorder from Gamestop.

It's not adding anything new to the game or making you pay extra.

I have seen people mention that they could allow the purchase of "extra" credits with real money, but there are no details out on that.

Also GT has never locked content behind a pay wall from the get-go, GT5 didn't have it's first payed DLC until a year after it released.

conman · (11-23-2013, 09:16 PM)

Gross.

And just like with MS's botched announcement for the Xbone, Sony has a chance to step up to the plate smiling and say: "GT6 will never cost you more than the price of the game." Hopefully they're paying attention.

RaikuHebi · (11-23-2013, 09:16 PM)

Originally Posted by jabuseika

I have seen people mention that they could allow the purchase of "extra" credits with real money, but there are no details out on that.

Good to hear, I stupidly took other peoples word for it.

PG2G · (11-23-2013, 09:16 PM)

Originally Posted by StrongArmSteady

Forza 3 does that count?

Sure. So I'm sure you'd probably agree that getting the top level cars has always been a bit of a grind

MesserWolf · (11-23-2013, 09:17 PM)

Originally Posted by Speedy Blue Dude

What's the problem here? You're not forced to buy anything... If I want to spend $72 to buy my Lotus, instead of grinding for hours to get it, why does it matter to anyone? Others can still get it normally, Turn 10 is just giving players options.

The problem is that the game seems designed to push you to buy with real cash. It is blatantly obvious

The push come from the removal of certain aspects and game mechanics that would have made the game actually more enjoyable, but we're instead sacrificed to push the real cash tokens.

Spookie · (11-23-2013, 09:17 PM)

Man to think I almost bought a Xbone for this, jesus wept I would have been livid.

AlexMogil · (11-23-2013, 09:18 PM)

Originally Posted by Haunted

Yeah, consumables you can buy repeatedly would obviously not really fall into that, or would at least have to be listed separately.

But just the amount for the gated content would be fine.

I see what you're saying, but there is a potential for an infinite money sink in FM5. Cars and parts cost credits. With 0 driving, what would all those cars and parts cost? If you need to separate it, why are part upgrades different than cars? Credits are still earned through time, and tokens are earned through money. And I might be wrong but can't you buy parts via tokens?

*I* know the difference, I'm not being obtuse. But then again - what's the difference? You're earning a credit bank to buy... digital things in a game.

MTMBStudios · (11-23-2013, 09:18 PM)

Originally Posted by jem0208

You could also just not spend any money on the microtransactions. If they were to not earn any money from them they will stop implementing them.

it cost almost nothing to implement them

its free money to them

in this case buying the game and not buying this in game currency isn't "voting with your wallet". they are never going to remove these micro transactions as long as the game itself sells

RedNumberFive · (11-23-2013, 09:20 PM)

I'm just going to come out and say it. Anyone who purchases this stuff needs to be placed under a Britney Spears level conservatorship.

PG2G · (11-23-2013, 09:20 PM)

Originally Posted by MesserWolf

The problem is that the game seems designed to push you to buy with real cash. It is blatantly obvious

The push come from the removal of certain aspects and game mechanics that would have made the game actually more enjoyable, but we're instead sacrificed to push the real cash tokens.

I'd agrue that the game is pushing you away from buying real cash if the major change is cars cost more in tokens than before but the same in in game currency.

I have put a good 4 hours into the game and the only thing that has annoyed me so far is the push to buy some crap to allow me to gain XP quicker.

AlexMogil · (11-23-2013, 09:20 PM)

Originally Posted by jabuseika

To be fair, you get those 1 million credits by preordering from Amazon, for no extra charge.

FM5 had pre order bonuses too.

Originally Posted by jabuseika

I have seen people mention that they could allow the purchase of "extra" credits with real money, but there are no details out on that.

Well...

The PS Blog:

In addition, from launch at retail you’ll find a new option for building your ultimate fantasy car collection in-game credits will be purchasable through PS Store or your friendly local retailer at the following denominations: 500K, 1 million, 2.5 million or 7 million credits which you’ll be able to apply in-game for cars and parts. To know how much your credits will get you, take a look at the menu of choices. For 1 million credits you could get all the cars below.

I'm not saying any of this is better or worse or right.

nailbombxx · (11-23-2013, 09:21 PM)

The problem is with this is that its a full-priced retail game that's obviously going to be designed to be painfully boring and tedious to get any of the stuff that you can buy with real money.

StrongArmSteady · (11-23-2013, 09:21 PM)

Originally Posted by PG2G

Sure. So I'm sure you'd probably agree that getting the top level cars has always been a bit of a grind

Cant say... god bored of it after 10 hours of career more :P unlocking cars in that game wasnt may main concern at the time..

correct me if im wrong, but i read/heard that they they dont gift ars anymore, instead just give you tokens..

RavenholmDX · (11-23-2013, 09:21 PM)

This is where we show our support for indie games that one quarter of the price, for a similar amount of content, and are usually better gaming experiences that a lot of this "AAA" crap we're force fed.

conman · (11-23-2013, 09:21 PM)

Originally Posted by Speedy Blue Dude

What's the problem here? You're not forced to buy anything...

I'm also not "forced" to buy the game in the first place. The problem isn't about being coerced into anything. It's about a $60 game being deliberately scaled back and about your progress being "throttled." The crime is putting business strategy ahead of good design.

Dysun · (11-23-2013, 09:21 PM)

This sounds horrible, I hope it fails miserably

Niks · (11-23-2013, 09:22 PM)

Originally Posted by conman

Gross.

And just like with MS's botched announcement for the Xbone, Sony has a chance to step up to the plate smiling and say: "GT6 will never cost you more than the price of the game." Hopefully they're paying attention.

Has someone tweeted this to adam boyes, or shu?

Partial Gamification · (11-23-2013, 09:22 PM)

I supppse there is a real World aspect to having the best and nicest stuff but what kind of a message does that send? I had no idea it was this bad, how much would Forza 5 be (complete) if you outright bought everything, highest /lowest price? I see the sliding scale for the cost of vehicles. I miss hidden cheats and achievements to unlock stuff like this. The gear chasing is too much for me in games.

NullPointer · (11-23-2013, 09:22 PM)

So just to be clear, these tokens are to cover the in-game currency of owning these cars, right?

Do you still have to pay twice for DLC cars? Once to buy the DLC itself, and again to buy the car within the game to own it?

BigDug13 · 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by pixlexic

Soooooo.... the answer is take out all micro-transactions and make everyone grind for the cars?

I still do not get the rage.

Yes, that is absolutely the answer. Without a "shortcut", the developers would be forced to make a proper grind progression that is not frustratingly slow. Without a shortcut, developers have to focus on making the progression fun. WITH a shortcut, all they have to do is provide you a way to bypass the frustratingly slow progression. And why is the progression frustratingly slow? Because now that they're going to make more cash from people by creating a shortcut, it encourages them to slow down the non-shortcut progression in order to "encourage" gamers to pay real money to eliminate the grind, because who doesn't enjoy more money in their pockets? Game developers certainly do, and game publishers ESPECIALLY do, so developers show down progression to encourage you to give them more money.

A Grind with no other shortcut option would be tuned properly, as we see with a game like Diablo 3 on Consoles. A Grind with monetary shortcut options would be tuned to be slow and rewards trickled, as we saw with Diablo 3 for PC.

Bedlam · 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by PG2G

I'd agrue that the game is pushing you away from buying real cash if the major change is cars cost more in tokens than before but the same in in game currency.

That's just an attempt to milk the whales even harder.

"Hey, a few people gave us an irrational amount of money for that stuff last time, now let's try and ask them for even more."

AlexMogil · (11-23-2013, 09:23 PM)

Originally Posted by BigDug13

Yes, that is absolutely the answer. Without a "shortcut", the developers would be forced to make a proper grind progression that is not frustratingly slow. Without a shortcut, developers have to focus on making the progression fun. WITH a shortcut, all they have to do is provide you a way to bypass the frustratingly slow progression. And why is the progression frustratingly slow? Because now that they're going to make more cash from people by creating a shortcut, it encourages them to slow down the non-shortcut progression in order to "encourage" gamers to pay real money to eliminate the grind.

see candy crush

RaikuHebi · (11-23-2013, 09:24 PM)

Originally Posted by pixlexic

Soooooo.... the answer is take out all micro-transactions and make everyone grind for the cars?

I still do not get the rage.

With your avatar and the ridiculous micro-transaction bullshit on the games from that company, I can understand why you don't see the issue.

Orca · 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by The Crimson Kid

This is absolutely ridiculous. There is simply no precedent for this in $60 console games.

Except about a dozen other games with 'shortcut' DLC, ranging from Battlefield to Diablo to Assassin's Creed.

Originally Posted by The Crimson Kid

They admitted to deliberately curbing the speed at which you can earn credits in order to make the fanciest cars hard to obtain. And they've taken it to such an extreme that it takes several hours of play in order to afford one of those pricey cars, and since you get nowhere near close to affording many of those cars by the time you finish the career, that means you're going to be grinding the same content you've already completed several times over in order to afford all the cars.

None of that is true.

Originally Posted by The Crimson Kid

They deliberately designed the progression of the game to be molasses slow in order to tempt you to buy virtual currency. It's F2P game design grafted into a $60 game with paid day one DLC.

Nor is that.

Originally Posted by The Crimson Kid

There was a thread a day or two ago where many people were convinced that GT6 was JUST AS BAD because they announced they were selling virtual currency as well, even though we have no idea how quickly you can earn credits in that game or how much they charge for cars or how valuable their virtual currency is.

Just as you apparently have no real idea how Forza 5's progression works either.

It's almost like making definitive statements about games you haven't played and have no real idea - outside the hyperbole of doomsayers - about how they work is BAD, huh?

Originally Posted by The Crimson Kid

You can eventually purchase all the cars in FM5 without paying for virtual currency, but the rate at which you can earn the in-game credits to buy the cars normally is so ridiculously slowed down that it would take you several dozen hours of replaying races you already won in order to afford them. You could race online, but since you are less likely to finish first, that would be a slower way to get credits than just doing career races over and over.

That sounds almost like every Forza (and GT for that matter) ever made. If you want the best cars you'll have to earn money by racing - it's a weird concept for a racing game, but it's seemed popular in the past.

Originally Posted by The Crimson Kid

While Forza Horizon was littered with DLC ads and enabled you to buy tokens and boosters, none of that was necessary because the game gave out credits at a fair rate for playing the game. After playing Horizon for 25 hours (mostly single player, couple hours of online, and a couple hours of challenging rivals), I had bought most of the cars I had wanted and could afford to buy a couple of the 10 or so cars that cost over a million credits

So you couldn't buy all the cars after 25 hours but you would expect to be able to in Forza 5 after less time?

Originally Posted by The Crimson Kid

The kicker with the Forza DLC is that once you buy a DLC pack, you still have to buy the car with credits or tokens. So if you paid for the DLC for the LaFerrari, which is a highly desirable and expensive car, you would still have to earn the credits in game to buy that car, which would take several hours of playing. Or you could buy tokens, which the game reminds you of constantly.

So if the LaFerrari cost 1 million credits, and you bought the DLC for the LaFerrari, you would have to either have 1 million credits on hand, play for the hours required to make the difference up, or pay for enough tokens to buy the LaFerrari. Yes, you would be paying them MULTIPLE TIMES in order to drive that car.

Or you would just race and earn the money, like in every other Forza game with DLC.

Edit - I'm done with the thread. At this point it's just a bunch of people who haven't played the game and have no idea how it works feeding off the doom and gloom fears of other people who haven't played the game.

DrFurbs · (11-23-2013, 09:24 PM)

M$ has guaranteed I'll never buy their over priced POS and games.

SHAME SHAME SHAME ON ALL REVIWERS THAT DIDN'T MENTION THIS. (SESSLER FOR ONE)

CSX · (11-23-2013, 09:24 PM)

Holy shit @ one car costing half the base game

T10 taking bad lessons from Train Simulator 2013

ironcreed · (11-23-2013, 09:25 PM)

Originally Posted by ramparter

LOL this is so funny actually... If the game was free to download and play then I would understand all this... but are they expecting player will pay full and then spend even more to buy extra content?

What makes it worse is that even if you buy the $50 season pass, all of the cars are still locked until you either grind it out at a snails pace, or you guessed it, pay more real money to get them. Pay to pay to play indeed.

NullPointer · (11-23-2013, 09:25 PM)

Originally Posted by Orca

Except about a dozen other games with 'shortcut' DLC, ranging from Battlefield to Diablo to Assassin's Creed.

Can you buy a single ship in AC4 for in excess of $70? I must have missed that offer.

Originally Posted by ironcreed

What makes it worse is that even if you buy the $50 season pass, all of the cars are still locked until you either grind it out at a snails pace, or you guessed it, pay more real money to get them. Pay to pay to play indeed.

So we are still talking about two paywalls for DLC cars? Real money for the DLC and then tokens to buy them again once those cars are in your game?

crazygambit · (11-23-2013, 09:26 PM)

Originally Posted by Klocker

Or just play the game and earn the credits in game to buy them

This is strictly for those that do not want to sit through the game to get to that point and is totally optional

For them, the money is probably worth it. If you don't agree don't buy tokens and earn them in game. I don't see the issue with options for people with more money than time

Posts like this are why we have to put up with these insulting practices.

It's not totally optional when the game balance has been deliberately altered to push you in to buying in game currency. It's a lose lose situation for the player and I can't believe you don't grasp that.

The Crimson Kid · (11-23-2013, 09:27 PM)

Originally Posted by jabuseika

I have seen people mention that they could allow the purchase of "extra" credits with real money, but there are no details out on that.

They will be allowing you to pay real money for currency in GT6. We do know that.

What we don't know is how the career is structured, how quickly you can earn credits through playing, if and how you get free cars, how expensive the top end cars are, or how much it would cost in dollars to buy 1 million credits.

Until those questions are answered, it is pointless to make any concrete conclusions about how bad those are in GT6, let alone make any kind of equivalence between GT and FM5.

We know all this info about FM5, and it paints a shockingly ugly picture, the likes of which are unprecedented in console gaming. Presuming that GT6 will be just as horrible without having most of the necessary information to accurately come to that conclusion is actively harmful to having an accurate and informed discussion about all of this.

Racer1977 · (11-23-2013, 09:27 PM)

I'd happily sink £100 or more into a new Gran Turismo or Forza, but it has to be new, worthwhile content, and (what I consider) value for money.

This genre is perfect for paid DLC, but since Forza 4, MS/T10 have been taking the piss somewhat, first with the pricey Porsche pack, then reselling the same cars from Forza 4, as DLC in Forza Horizon.

They better be careful, they're taking their fanbase for granted, they could turn a lot of folk away.

PsychoSoldier · (11-23-2013, 09:28 PM)

I'll be the first to admit that I don't like these kinds of games so it doesn't affect me but it sounds pretty gross.

Did this not get mentioned in reviews?

phuturist · (11-23-2013, 09:28 PM)

Originally Posted by Orca

Except about a dozen other games with 'shortcut' DLC, ranging from Battlefield to Diablo to Assassin's Creed.

[...]

Edit - I'm done with the thread. At this point it's just a bunch of people who haven't played the game and have no idea how it works feeding off the doom and gloom fears of other people who haven't played the game.

You are...defending this, right? Are you seriously defending this? Really?

Ask yourself, or tell me, WHY.

DrFurbs · (11-23-2013, 09:28 PM)

There is no fucking way any one can defend this practice. I fucking pray no one buys this crap

LukasTaves · (11-23-2013, 09:29 PM)

Why is this any bad? As long as you can purchase the car ingame without spending a penny I don't see the problem XD Unless the game is badly balanced and it's almost impossible to earn all the in-game money, of course.

But I couldn't care less about people being scammed for buying in game content with money if it's fairly obtainable through the game itself.

Honey Bunny · (11-23-2013, 09:29 PM)

Originally Posted by RavenholmDX

This is where we show our support for indie games that one quarter of the price, for a similar amount of content, and are usually better gaming experiences that a lot of this "AAA" crap we're force fed.

There are no equivalent experiences to GT and Forza on consoles, sadly. I guess we're getting PCars soon.

ironcreed · (11-23-2013, 09:29 PM)

Originally Posted by NullPointer

Can you buy a single ship in AC4 for in excess of $70? I must have missed that offer.

So we are still talking about two paywalls for DLC cars? Real money for the DLC and then tokens to buy them again once those cars are in your game?

Yeah, the DLC cars will still be locked until you can afford them. Unless you want to buy tokens to unlock the cars.

Delusibeta · (11-23-2013, 09:30 PM)

Originally Posted by CSX

Holy shit @ one car costing half the base game

T10 taking bad lessons from Train Simulator 2013

Half? Closer to three quarters (UK Xbone Store price for Forza 5 is £45).

Bojanglez · (11-23-2013, 09:30 PM)

Can you race these cars in arcade mode? It not it is bullshit that you have paid £50 for a game you can't use all the cars in.

King_Moc · (11-23-2013, 09:30 PM)

I'm really not sure how anyone could defend any instance of a game charging you extra money for something that you already paid for buy buying it in the first place. Optional or not, this shit need to die in a fire.

RaikuHebi · (11-23-2013, 09:31 PM)

Originally Posted by Honey Bunny

There are no equivalent experiences to GT and Forza on consoles, sadly. I guess we're getting PCars soon.

GT6 doesn't have microtransactions, it just has a pre-order bonus that gives a person 1 million credits.

NullPointer · (11-23-2013, 09:32 PM)

Originally Posted by Delusibeta

Half? Closer to three quarters (UK Xbone Store price for Forza 5 is £45).

Again, it depends upon which token packages you buy. If you bought several of the smaller token packages the real world cost would be £79 for that car.

The pricing pushes you towards buying tokens in bulk to get discounts.

ricochetguro · (11-23-2013, 09:32 PM)

You don't get cars every time you level up anymore, just lots of credits. Haven't felt like there is any grind yet, suppose we'll see as we go along.

cutmeamango · (11-23-2013, 09:33 PM)

Cross-quoting Amar from the Forza thread.

Originally Posted by amar212

Can anyone clear up this questions, please - thank you!

1. what is the average net-payout for the 1st place in the mid-tier races, with all possible in-game bonuses (no assists usage, pro AI, simulation setting, etc)?

2. which amount of money can be earned by self-sustained grind of Rivals? (as in FM4, where you deliberately do not push someone's Rival in order to maximise the profits with every next run with Rival above)?

3. How long EXACTLY can take to earn 1-million? One hour? Two hours?

4. Also, I would like to know what is the length of the average race?

Once these are answered I can judge how vile T10 is or isn't.

I problably misheard, but a stream guy said 100k for a 10min event. Eurogamer's review said on avg, 110k for a <1hr event.
Plenty playing now, we shall know soon.

Crisium · (11-23-2013, 09:33 PM)

Evil.

Tabris · (11-23-2013, 09:33 PM)

The issue simply is that the game design has obviously been dictated by the micro transactions. Removing functionality like the Auction House is to ensure users can't buy and sell cars between each other and instead have to "earn or buy". Except they also increased the "earn" time required grade. It's shady fucking business.

I don't care about shortcut micro transactions in games, as long as the game design isn't altered based on it. Which it has been here and in multiple other games provided by companies like EA.

CSX · (11-23-2013, 09:33 PM)

Originally Posted by Delusibeta

Half? Closer to three quarters (UK Xbone Store price for Forza 5 is £45).

...wow Just wow

This has to be the most beautiful car model in the history of racing game. It has to be. Game will even magically turn on AA when you select the car

AlexMogil · (11-23-2013, 09:34 PM)

Originally Posted by The Crimson Kid

Until those questions are answered, it is pointless to make any concrete conclusions about how bad those are in GT6, let alone make any kind of equivalence between GT and FM5.

We know all this info about FM5, and it paints a shockingly ugly picture, the likes of which are unprecedented in console gaming. Presuming that GT6 will be just as horrible without having most of the necessary information to accurately come to that conclusion is actively harmful to having an accurate and informed discussion about all of this.

As long as each game gives the ability to play and earn the cars I think it's ok. I don't see any real difference about some perceived value when you're buying pretendy cars with shortcuts from real money no matter who the publisher.

BTW I'm just as bad, for FM4 I bought the Gamestop edition and then paid two bucks online for the tokens so I could buy the 2011 Subaru Sti. I had to, it's my car.

And I supposed Rowan Atkinson can afford to do the same. :)

Forza 5: The Game for Rowan Atkinson

Delusibeta · (11-23-2013, 09:34 PM)

Originally Posted by RaikuHebi

GT6 doesn't have microtransactions, it just has a pre-order bonus that gives a person 1 million credits.

Microtransactions (credit packs) are confirmed. Whether they are going to reduce credit income to force people towards buying the credit packs in a similar manner to Forza 5 is the ten million credit question.