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Foxix Von
rolling up newspapers
and smacking noses
(11-25-2013, 03:00 AM)
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So this is a very different issue that cropped up in the Xbox One Scaler Thread, which was more concerning sharpening. I thought this subject deserved it's own thread to figure just what exactly is happening since it seemed to be derailing the other thread.

In short user Timu has been a kind and active contributor to the console screenshot thread. As he was posting screenshots of Xbox One games other users pointed out that his screenshots were sporting severely crushed blacks. Most of us thought it had to due with Full Range RGB being set and possibly causing some trouble after that Digital Foundry BF3 comparison. In turn we requested that he take some screengrabs with the system set to Limited RGB and see what happened. At the very least we expected the black level to be reduced and yet, here are the screens he took.

This is with RGB set to full:


and these are with RGB set to limited:



He's posted some other photos from DR3 with the gamma cranked up to attempt to compensate for the lack of detail, and yet the problem still persists:

Originally Posted by Timu

Ok, here's Dead Rising 3, and I increased the gamma because it looked way worse than before.



If this has been covered before, or if there's merely something wrong with his captures please lock the thread. But at the very least I thought this would make for an interesting discussion in pinning down what could be going wrong either in the Xbox One's output or in Timu's method of capturing.
Kame
Junior Member
(11-25-2013, 03:02 AM)
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Kinect can't see black .
pixlexic
Banned
(11-25-2013, 03:04 AM)
yes full range doesn't work correctly. Fix this MS!
Mesoian
Member
(11-25-2013, 03:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kame

Kinect can't see black .

Kade
Member
(11-25-2013, 03:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kame

Kinect can't see black .

Wow, first posts don't get any more EPIC! xD

Anyways, those screens look terrible. Must be something with the capture setup and game combination or something because this is the first time I've seen this.
SteveWinwood
Banned
(11-25-2013, 03:07 AM)
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well does cable television or fantasy football really need blacks

edit: wait this sounds really racist and totally not what i mean
Wishmaster92
Member
(11-25-2013, 03:08 AM)
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I have a tv that supports full rgb, in addition to limited. I have tried messing around with both, then checking the black and contrast levels via the xbox one calibration tool and i haven't noticed any crushed blacks whatsoever. What i have noticed is that when i set both the tv and xbox to full rgb, the picture is a little brighter as it should be (16-235) vs (0-255). No issues for me so far.

Edit: I tested this with Ryse. Full rgb looks a little better than limited where it looks a little dull.
Rich!
If this is a retro/homebrew thread, I'm a helpful poster.

If not, I'm either angry about something minor or ranting about how much GAF sucks because everyone is angry all the time.

This tag will disappear when it is no longer true.
(11-25-2013, 03:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by SteveWinwood

well does cable television or fantasy football really need blacks

It does if you're watching The Wire
aaaaaa
Member
(11-25-2013, 03:09 AM)
aaaaaa's Avatar
Might be an intentional effect, too. Try it with some multiplat titles.
synce
Member
(11-25-2013, 03:09 AM)
But it's the loss of detail that makes it pop!
Thacker
Member
(11-25-2013, 03:10 AM)
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Full on my Vizio 60" looks like total ass, where as full on the PS4 looks great.
Satchel
Banned
(11-25-2013, 03:12 AM)
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I don't know what crushed blacks are, but when I set the RGB to full, the dash goes reeeeeeeally black.
SSReborn
Member
(11-25-2013, 03:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by SteveWinwood

well does cable television or fantasy football really need blacks

edit: wait this sounds really racist and totally not what i mean

lol I read this before the edit and I was totally thinking "I don't think he is being racist and I think I get what he is trying to to say but I wonder if he realizes this could be taken the wrong way" nice edit.
Foxix Von
rolling up newspapers
and smacking noses
(11-25-2013, 03:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Satchel

I don't know what crushed blacks are, but when I set the RGB to full, the dash goes reeeeeeeally black.



It's essentially a loss of detail in the darker color ranges. Where you should see gradations of color you only see a flat black surface. Unless your television also supports a Full Range setting, just keep it set to limited. Although I'm not sure that makes a difference with the way the console is currently set.
Rich!
If this is a retro/homebrew thread, I'm a helpful poster.

If not, I'm either angry about something minor or ranting about how much GAF sucks because everyone is angry all the time.

This tag will disappear when it is no longer true.
(11-25-2013, 03:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by SSReborn

lol I read this before the edit and I was totally thinking "I don't think he is being racist and I think I get what he is trying to to say but I wonder if he realizes this could be taken the wrong way" nice edit.

I knew what he meant too, I just found it hilarious.
Wishmaster92
Member
(11-25-2013, 03:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Satchel

I don't know what crushed blacks are, but when I set the RGB to full, the dash goes reeeeeeeally black.

That's because you need to activate full rgb mode on your tv, or else you're gonna get crushed blacks.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
(11-25-2013, 03:23 AM)
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I worried about this, based on Xbox360 linear gamma.
Please don't tell me Xbone uses linear gamma.
CTLance
(11-25-2013, 03:37 AM)
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Could this be a possible fix for at least one part of the woes around Full/Limited RGB? Disable HDMI auto detection. Might not do much.

Don't have an XBone, can't verify. Can someone please check if this actually does anything?
Klocker
(11-25-2013, 03:44 AM)
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My tv allegedly handles rgb full and it worked great on 360 but on the One the calibration tool doesn't allow me to see the dark closed eye in full only limited

So thought maybe it is messed up
Team Vernia
Banned
(11-25-2013, 03:45 AM)
It's not just full range that crushes the blacks in certain games. Limited range has the same problem. It's mainly a problem in Dead Rising 3 and Killer Instinct. Changing gamma settings in game doesn't help as noted. It makes me not want to play Dead Rising 3 since it's SOOOOO dark. It isn't a problem in Ryse.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
(11-25-2013, 03:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by Wishmaster92

That's because you need to activate full rgb mode on your tv, or else you're gonna get crushed blacks.



How do you activate full RGB mode on your TV? I know how to set it on the game systems, but would a Sony Bravia LED HDTV have that option? I am assuming that not all TV's would have that option, right?
nib95
Banned
(11-25-2013, 03:47 AM)
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Even the RGB limited shots still look to have crushed blacks, so yes, it's probably messed up. On a side note, this shot does no favours for KI graphically...wow....

Chobel
I shouldn't make bets because every time I do my tag gets worse
(11-25-2013, 03:48 AM)
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Can someone post Powerstar Golf screenshots?
Team Vernia
Banned
(11-25-2013, 03:49 AM)

Originally Posted by nib95

Even the RGB limited shots still look to have crushed blacks, so yes, it's probably messed up. On a side note, this shot does no favours for KI graphically...wow....

:(

KI still looks and plays awesome... it's just a bit dark.
Klocker
(11-25-2013, 04:35 AM)
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Can someone tell me is it worth going to 30 or 36 bit color?. Not sure I see a difference
Timu
Member
(11-25-2013, 04:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by Foxix


If this has been covered before, or if there's merely something wrong with his captures please lock the thread. But at the very least I thought this would make for an interesting discussion in pinning down what could be going wrong either in the Xbox One's output or in Timu's method of capturing.

The 1st shot is Full RGB but the rest are Limited RGB. I also increased the Gamma for Dead Rising 3 in those shots to near full, and KI has no real brightness/contrast options, I might have to increase the brightness of that game with my capture card.

Also I don't think Crimson Dragon has this problem but I heard that was in 1080p.
Replicant
There's a duck in the room
There's a duck i-OWWWW
(11-25-2013, 04:59 AM)
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The Killer Instinct shots aren't nice but at least it doesn't really interfere with the gameplay. It's just unfortunate that the background is just one giant black hole (and increased aliasing). But the Dead Rising shots are horrible. If you can't see what's around you then it'd be a nightmare trying to fend off the zombies.
Timu
Member
(11-25-2013, 05:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by aaaaaa

Might be an intentional effect, too. Try it with some multiplat titles.

I wish I had a multiplat.

Originally Posted by Klocker

Can someone tell me is it worth going to 30 or 36 bit color?. Not sure I see a difference

Nah, I don't see much of a difference between them.
Foxix Von
rolling up newspapers
and smacking noses
(11-25-2013, 05:57 AM)
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Quoting you from the other thread. A shot from DR3 without the gamma adjusted to compensate.

Originally Posted by Timu

Your eyes won't regret this:

Christ, that's dark.
Angelus Errare
Banned
(11-25-2013, 06:06 AM)
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Looks cinematic, perhaps the framerate is intentional as well. D:
bodine1231
Member
(11-25-2013, 06:19 AM)
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I have this problem with Blu-Rays and the Xbox One. I was watching the new Superman this morning and noticed the crush black effect at the beginning on Krypton. The blacks are so deep and flat that you can't notice the detail in Zod or Jor-El's suit. I had to jack my black level up another 15 points on my movie settings that I've had calibrated and been using for months. Also,in Dead Rising I had to set the gamma to one below full. Setting it to Limited did fix this problem though on the 360 it wasn't an issue.
vazel
Member
(11-25-2013, 06:22 AM)
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Not again... Dammit Microsoft! Hopefully Microsoft is able to fix this in a firmware update this time.
Syphon Filter
Member
(11-25-2013, 06:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by aaaaaa

Might be an intentional effect, too. Try it with some multiplat titles.

why would it be intentional?
That Wont Fit In There
Member
(11-25-2013, 06:25 AM)
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How would I change gamma settings on my asus vg23ah? I noticed some possibly crushed blacks while playing ps4 and I set the ps4 to limited but would like to know how to get the best picture possible. I'd appreciate a PM reply.
dynamitejim
Member
(11-25-2013, 06:25 AM)
Not really related, but the PS4's built in video recording seems to crush blacks as well. I was watching some night time AC4 footage that I recorded and there was absolutely no detail in the darker areas when I know that's not the case for the actual game.
vazel
Member
(11-25-2013, 06:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by That Wont Fit In There

How would I change gamma settings on my asus vg23ah? I noticed some possibly crushed blacks while playing ps4 and I set the ps4 to limited but would like to know how to get the best picture possible. I'd appreciate a PM reply.

If the crushed blacks are in the source picture there's nothing you can do about it. You can't make more details appear from a picture they were erased from.

Edit: Oh wait you're talking about the PS4.

Monitor OSDs are straightfoward, you should be able to find the gamma setting easily if it has one. You should also Google to find out other people's experience with calibrating that model.
MCD
Junior Member
(11-25-2013, 06:31 AM)
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I remember this bug in one of the 360 dashboard updates. Was annoying.

Make some noise and maybe they will fix it in an update.
Izayoi
Banned
(11-25-2013, 06:31 AM)
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Originally Posted by nib95

Even the RGB limited shots still look to have crushed blacks, so yes, it's probably messed up. On a side note, this shot does no favours for KI graphically...wow....

720p upscaled to 1080p with an aggressive sharpening filter applied.

It butchers what little IQ the game had in the first place.
big_z
just gonna rub one out
in the next few minutes
(11-25-2013, 06:35 AM)
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is limited and full the only options? 360 has standard which is what most people need to use and another option as well if I remember correctly.
Izayoi
Banned
(11-25-2013, 06:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by Syphon Filter

why would it be intentional?

Why would they intentionally ruin upscales with a horrific sharpening filter?

Sometimes it's best just not to ask, I think.
MCD
Junior Member
(11-25-2013, 06:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by big_z

is limited and full the only options? 360 has standard which is what most people need to use and another option as well if I remember correctly.

Limited = Standard

Intermediate = I have no idea what this ever did

Full = Expanded
Timu
Member
(11-25-2013, 06:39 AM)
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Ok, I did some adjustments, this is DR3 on highest gamma without touching the capture card brightness:



For KI, I had to increase the brightness from my capture card, I'll show the differences between default 128, then 140 and then 150:

128:


140:


150:
Timu
Member
(11-25-2013, 06:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by big_z

is limited and full the only options?

Yes.
nib95
Banned
(11-25-2013, 06:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Timu

Ok, I did some adjustments, this is DR3 on highest gamma without touching the capture card brightness:



For KI, I had to increase the brightness from my capture card, I'll show the differences between default 128, then 140 and then 150:

128:


140:


150:

In this Dead Rising shot, you've gained brightness at the expense of black level depth. Blacks are now closer to a grey like hue, and the shadow detail is still lacking. It's an alternative to dealing with black crush no doubt, but by no means a solution to the problem. Just replaces one issue with another.
cartoon_soldier
Member
(11-25-2013, 07:03 AM)
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Is this happening for one user or other XB1 users too?
MCD
Junior Member
(11-25-2013, 07:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by cartoon_soldier

Is this happening for one user or other XB1 users too?

Looks like it's a system wide bug.
Timu
Member
(11-25-2013, 07:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by nib95

In this Dead Rising shot, you've gained brightness at the expense of black level depth. Blacks are now closer to a grey like hue, and the shadow detail is still lacking. It's an alternative to dealing with black crush no doubt, but by no means a solution to the problem. Just replaces one issue with another.

Going to have to adjust the gamma or brightness to fix that, lol.
PetriP-TNT
Member
(11-25-2013, 07:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by MidgarBlowedUp

I worried about this, based on Xbox360 linear gamma.
Please don't tell me Xbone uses linear gamma.

I am 100% sure at this point that XBone uses the same style of gamma handling as the 360, which causes uncorrected games look very dark (see http://www.valvesoftware.com/publica...eOrangeBox.pdf for reference, the #1 reason why PS3 games nearly always looked lighter than their 360 counterparts)
Timu
Member
(11-25-2013, 07:23 AM)
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Guys I'm running out of ideas, here's default brightness 128:



And now 140:

PetriP-TNT
Member
(11-25-2013, 07:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Timu

Guys I'm running out of ideas, here's default brightness 128:

Does this look better?


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