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Untalkative_Bunny
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(12-01-2013, 05:24 PM)
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[I thought this from the crushed blacks thread deserved its own thread, all credit goes to Gizmowned. None of this is my work]

Originally Posted by Gizmowned

I've done it and it's not only crushing blacks and brightening whites but it seems to apply some anti-aliasing or some type of thing.

So these pictures were captured from 1080p source at 24 bits per pixel at TV (RGB Limited). I have done no editing to them just opening the original files then re-saving as PNG.

The pictures on the left are the screens from when we play in-game with the 1080p scaler in effect. The pictures on the right are exactly the same frame but when going back to or from the dash so no scaler is being used.

When you hit the dash button before it returns you home a few duplicate frames are displayed and some of there remove the "1080p upscaler filter" leaving you what I imagine the game would look like without the scaler.

If you look at the Sabrewulf opening shot at the background in the level you can see quite a lot of smoothness on the wooden beams but its crushed black.

But on the exact shot without the scaler working we can see quite alot of aliasing yet we can see a better color and detail.















As Izayoi points out,

Originally Posted by Izayoi

It looks like some form of FXAA. Real AA is not being applied, as the step count on all edges is identical.

Compare his headband in these two images:

http://i1.minus.com/ibbly73f7uecIZ.png
http://i6.minus.com/ibjlCoWX6gxGXY.png

Stairs are identical. It's hard to see on some other edges, but it you look closely, you can see that the stair count across the entire image remains unchanged.

If I weren't at work I'd fire up an image editor and point out some of the more obvious spots.

Papacheeks
Junior Member
(12-01-2013, 05:27 PM)
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Visually that game looks like dog shit close up.

Wow hope games overall improve on Xbone, because when games like new Street Fighter or Netherrealms game comes out, we know which system will have the better version.
GrimlÝck
Member
(12-01-2013, 05:29 PM)
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They both look like crap. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
stilgar
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(12-01-2013, 05:31 PM)
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Oh boy, it's either the capture tool is bad or I woke up in 2005 (and in this case, guys, SELL ALL YOUR SHARES BEFORE THE END OF 2006, you'll thank me later)
SRTtoZ
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(12-01-2013, 05:32 PM)
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I threw up in my mouth a little.
SteelAlchemist
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(12-01-2013, 05:32 PM)
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Can someone post a direct screenshot of Forza 5 for me?
ypo
Member
(12-01-2013, 05:33 PM)
The Xbox One version has sharper textures.
Black Mantis
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(12-01-2013, 05:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by Papacheeks(GRPodcast)

Visually that game looks like dog shit close up.

Wow hope games overall improve on Xbone, because when games like new Street Fighter or Netherrealms game comes out, we know which system will have the better version.

Yeah, because KI is the true showcase of the X1's graphical abilities.
blitzcloud
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(12-01-2013, 05:35 PM)
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this game looks seriously last gen.
Josh7289
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(12-01-2013, 05:35 PM)
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Wow, that black crush is awful. Is there no way to actually disable that while playing a game?
VanWinkle
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(12-01-2013, 05:35 PM)
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It's utterly bizzare to me that it actually applies some AA. That seems to weird to me that an upscaler that's not even built into the game but rather the hardware can even do that. Even so, it's not at all worth it with the horribly crushed blacks, and the oversharpening I've seen in some other games.
Terbinator
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(12-01-2013, 05:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Anick18

Can someone post a direct screenshot of Forza 5 for me?



Originally Posted by Reese-015

Both look pretty crappy up close indeed. However...

Are we sure that the additional anti-aliasing here comes from the filter? Or is it an in-game thing that for some reason gets disabled on those in-between frames where the no-filter images are grabbed from? Cause that is one hell of a filter if it can do that kind of AA in post. Effective post AA filters like FXAA use things like the luma channel and such for proper AA, right? Hard to imagine how a post AA filter like this one that would only operate on the actual final image can anti-alias the image so effectively.

I agree. I'd even go as far as to say it's impressive and I hate PPAA.
Last edited by Terbinator; 12-01-2013 at 05:38 PM.
sangreal
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(12-01-2013, 05:35 PM)
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If I'm reading this right, this is just comparing the screenshot of the game used for the home screen to the actual gameplay output. I'm not sure it's fair to assume this is representative of anything

(when you hit guide button it uses a still of the game for the transition effect and dashboard tile and that's where these lighter shots are from)
Last edited by sangreal; 12-01-2013 at 05:38 PM.
FargoDog
Banned
(12-01-2013, 05:36 PM)
So it's a choice of either an overly processed image that crushes fine detail, or an image filled with distracting jaggies?

MICROSOFT

WHERE IS THE BALANCE
Last edited by FargoDog; 12-01-2013 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Grammar
neptunes
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(12-01-2013, 05:36 PM)
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One looks saturated, the other looks jaggy and washed out.

Something in between would look ideal.
Reese-015
Member
(12-01-2013, 05:36 PM)
Both look pretty crappy up close indeed. However...

Are we sure that the additional anti-aliasing here comes from the filter? Or is it an in-game thing that for some reason gets disabled on those in-between frames where the no-filter images are grabbed from? Cause that is one hell of a filter if it can do that kind of AA in post. Effective post AA filters like FXAA use things like the luma channel and such for proper AA, right? Hard to imagine how a post AA filter like this one that would only operate on the actual final image can anti-alias the image so effectively.
Felix Lighter
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(12-01-2013, 05:36 PM)
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The crushed blacks are so ridiculous that I can't see how a bunch of engineers, software developers and artists saw the results and thought that it was acceptable.
Untalkative_Bunny
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(12-01-2013, 05:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Josh7289

Wow, that black crush is awful. Is there no way to actually disable that while playing a game?

If you set the bone's output to 720, it wont apply the filter.


can anyone grab some screens from AC4/BF4/any other upscaled games using the same method?

Its a tough call which ones look better. I'd probably opt for the more accurate colors + no crushed blacks given the choice.

It also make me understand why some of the journos had a hard time picking out the better image during the resolutiongate thing, especially if they aren't used to seeing things on a calibrated set with good black levels.

With the prevalence of cheap shitty monitors/TVs today, very few people notice crushed blacks unless it is severe. I guess it might be true, when the answer to a question is incompetence or conspiracy, it is almost always incompetence.
blitzcloud
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(12-01-2013, 05:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by neptunes

One looks saturated, the other looks washed out.

Something in between would look ideal.

or you know, calibrating your TV according to it.

People tend to forget that the wider arrange of colors (normally feels washed out due intermediate values in contrast) means more flexibility on your end.

BUT NO, CONTRAST +200% AW YISS. Need to oversaturate dat shit so it shines.
ManThatYouFear
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(12-01-2013, 05:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Black Mantis

Yeah, because KI is the true showcase of the X1's graphical abilities.

it should be.
derFeef
lil' bit tasty
(12-01-2013, 05:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by neptunes

One looks saturated, the other looks jaggy and washed out.

Something in between would look ideal.

One is the actual game, one is the scaled down (and then scaled back up for the "comparison") for the dash pic.

I think I am the only one without black crush problems sometimes. People should use the rcorrect color format, calibrate their TV and not let the capture device fuck it up again.
pixlexic
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(12-01-2013, 05:39 PM)
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I think with the slight cpu and gpu upgrades they should go back and make KI 900p.

DO IT! the game is awesome!
BruceLeeRoy
(12-01-2013, 05:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by GrimlÝck

They both look like crap. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Exactly what I was thinking ha
El Sabroso
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(12-01-2013, 05:39 PM)
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I think there is a post process effect in left pictures that is removed on right picture, there is no bloom in right pictures for example, is like comparing pictures in PC with SweetFX, the difference is that the post processing applied is not really a good one
benny_a
extra source of jiggaflops
(12-01-2013, 05:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Reese-015

Are we sure that the additional anti-aliasing here comes from the filter? Or is it an in-game thing that for some reason gets disabled on those in-between frames where the no-filter images are grabbed from? Cause that is one hell of a filter if it can do that kind of AA in post. Effective post AA filters like FXAA use things like the luma channel and such for proper AA, right? Hard to imagine how a post AA filter like this one that would only operate on the actual final image can anti-alias the image so effectively.

Someone answer this man!

It could just disable some graphical things because the OS informs the game in what kind of state it is and the game adjusts the graphics accordingly.
ItIsOkBro
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(12-01-2013, 05:40 PM)
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How is the filter adding a glow to Jago.
Last edited by ItIsOkBro; 12-01-2013 at 05:43 PM.
SgtCobra
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(12-01-2013, 05:40 PM)
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Wow.
Much pop.
So crisp.
Azula
Master Cancer Bender
(12-01-2013, 05:40 PM)
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Do people still want to argue this isn't an issue.
VanWinkle
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(12-01-2013, 05:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by El Sabroso

I think there is a post process effect in left pictures that is removed on right picture, there is no bloom in right pictures for example, is like comparing pictures in PC with SweetFX, the difference is that the post processing applied is not really a good one

Yeah, I have a hard time believing the upscaler is doing the AA, and especially the bloom that is missing in the "non-upscaler" screenshots. We do know that it crushes blacks and oversharpens, but this stuff here? Ehhh....
Face it Tiger..
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(12-01-2013, 05:41 PM)
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You should just keep most the resolution setting at 720p
blitzcloud
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(12-01-2013, 05:41 PM)
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things that I noticed is how one of the pictures creates a blooming effect (glow) on the shoulder of the guy for the filter version, while the 720p one doesn't have it.

weird.
Untalkative_Bunny
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(12-01-2013, 05:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by derFeef

One is the actual game, one is the scaled down (and then scaled back up for the "comparison") for the dash pic.

I think I am the only one without black crush problems sometimes. People should use the rcorrect color format, calibrate their TV and not let the capture device fuck it up again.

maybe. maybe not.

The pictures on the left are the screens from when we play in-game with the 1080p scaler in effect. The pictures on the right are exactly the same frame but when going back to or from the dash so no scaler is being used.

Ryuuga
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(12-01-2013, 05:41 PM)
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I'm seriously confused at how some like the overly-saturated darkened state of the upscaler. So much contrasting detail is lost.
Skittles
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(12-01-2013, 05:42 PM)
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Holy shit, didn't realize the extent to which the xbone crushed blacks. I knew it happened, but didn't know it was that noticeable. Disgusting filter to have, especially for FPSs
Replicant
There's a duck in the room
There's a duck i-OWWWW
(12-01-2013, 05:42 PM)
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KI already looks jaggy on its own. Don't know why MS thinks it's a great idea to increase the contrast.
derFeef
lil' bit tasty
(12-01-2013, 05:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Azula

Do people still want to argue this isn't an issue.

The sharpening is shit.
However, the right images are not ingame images, they are scaled down (the resolution) for the dash pic, plus removed AA and effects. People seem to miss that.

Originally Posted by Untalkative_Bunny

maybe. maybe not.

Exactly, they are not representive of the actual game. But peole ignore that.
Thrakier
Member
(12-01-2013, 05:43 PM)
360 did the same, no one bothered. Seems like quality standards raised. Good thing.
pixlexic
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(12-01-2013, 05:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Reese-015

Both look pretty crappy up close indeed. However...

Are we sure that the additional anti-aliasing here comes from the filter? Or is it an in-game thing that for some reason gets disabled on those in-between frames where the no-filter images are grabbed from? Cause that is one hell of a filter if it can do that kind of AA in post. Effective post AA filters like FXAA use things like the luma channel and such for proper AA, right? Hard to imagine how a post AA filter like this one that would only operate on the actual final image can anti-alias the image so effectively.

I think it is not the real game resolution but it draws the last frame from the buffer in what ever resolution the OS menu image is before scaling it down to the window.
Untalkative_Bunny
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(12-01-2013, 05:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by VanWinkle

Yeah, I have a hard time believing the upscaler is doing the AA, and especially the bloom that is missing in the "non-upscaler" screenshots. We do know that it crushes blacks and oversharpens, but this stuff here? Ehhh....

from the op:

It looks like some form of FXAA. Real AA is not being applied, as the step count on all edges is identical.

Compare his headband in these two images:

RoboPlato
I'd be in the dick
(12-01-2013, 05:44 PM)
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The sharpening and black crush is far worse than the lower resolution of Xbox One games. It's taking an suboptimal situation and making it far worse.
EuropeOG
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(12-01-2013, 05:44 PM)
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Looks like SweetFX with shit settings.
3rdamention
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(12-01-2013, 05:45 PM)
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I cannot get past all those jaggies in Killer Instinct. I know it looks much better in motion, but it doesn't matter which image you look at, the jaggies are awful.
Pray For Death
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(12-01-2013, 05:45 PM)
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Ok that looks rough
Papercuts
fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
(12-01-2013, 05:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Untalkative_Bunny

from the op:

Even then, how/why is there a glow on Jago in only the scaler images? The lighting is changed between shots on a few occasion.
derFeef
lil' bit tasty
(12-01-2013, 05:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Papercuts

Even then, how/why is there a glow on Jago in only the scaler images? The lighting is changed between shots on a few occasion.

Effects turned off for the dash pic to save resources.
Or they only turn on if "in game" - same with the AA
Chacranajxy
I paid good money for this Dynex!
(12-01-2013, 05:46 PM)
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Jeez, I can't believe how bad both variants look. Just awful.
Azula
Master Cancer Bender
(12-01-2013, 05:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by derFeef

The sharpening is shit.
However, the right images are not ingame images, they are scaled down (the resolution) for the dash pic, plus removed AA and effects. People seem to miss that.


Exactly, they are not representive of the actual game. But peole ignore that.

All I know is, my games when scaled to 1080p have crushed blacks and a sharpening effect applied to them. When I set it to 720p output it doesn't do it. It has more natural colors and no over excessive sharpening or darkened blacks. This also only happens on X1 and not PS4 or Wii U. Forza which is native 1080p doesn't do it. Ryse doesn't do it. (Crytek used their own scaler). But seemingly it's my tvs fault. Better accept it.

I find it strange that setting 720p solves the issue but 1080p scaled shows it. And yet it's my TVs fault.

Edit: re read your post. My apologies for misunderstanding.
Last edited by Azula; 12-01-2013 at 06:05 PM.
Crisium
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(12-01-2013, 05:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by ManThatYouFear

it should be.

Agreed. Soul Calibur showed off the DC. Although the DC had a very short timespan, it's arguably still the best looking 3D fighter on the system. DOA3 showed off the Xbox at launch and it stood above any DC or PS2 3D fighters at the time. 360 has DOA4 which was very impressive for 2005 standards being far ahead of anything on the market except maybe HD SC2 on Xbox.

KI is not impressive for 2013 standards.

But if we go further into the past, we can see games like Virtua Fighter for the Saturn and Battle Arena Toshinden for the PSX which are both hideous. But then we have Virtua Fighter 2 which is arguably the best looking 3D fighter of the generation and Tekken 3 which is the best looking PSX fighter and we can see that launches are sometimes rushed. They look a generation ahead of their launch counterparts.

Let's really hope it's more of a 32-bit launch than a DC/Xbox launch or MS is in trouble.
Last edited by Crisium; 12-01-2013 at 06:02 PM.
Untalkative_Bunny
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(12-01-2013, 05:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by derFeef

Effects turned off for the dash pic to save resources.
Or they only turn on if "in game" - same with the AA

I guessing for the dash, they don't need to apply post process AA and effects, & if they did it would look worse. I don't know if it is to save resources or just because the dash looks better without them.

I'm also interested in knowing if this is a software thing or if there is dedicated hardware for this.

IIRC, nvidia was touting some programmable blocks for this kind of stuff a few years ago, & they said it gave the advantages of both a hardware solution and a software solution (efficiency + programmabilty). So even if it is a hardware thing, it might still be tuneable by developers with sufficient resources.
iceatcs
Banned
(12-01-2013, 05:56 PM)
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Hmm both have more of things are not same, especially the flame effect.

Look like it reduce the resource for dash screenshot. Must be because Xbox One don't have the secondary processor, PS4 have one to spare resource away from game.

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