NeoGAF

I'm on the yay campus. I'm against anything that wastes my time playing a game. I don't like the idea that I have spent hours spec-ing a character to uselessness in end game. I don't mind paying (in game currency of course) to re-spec my character. But no Re-spec? Fuck that shit.

I understand the other point of view... you "need" to "pay" for your bad decisions. Then don't re-spec and start a new character and waste your time. Keep your masochistic tendencies from my games bro.

I for one will be re-specing all night long.

It needs to be possible by some means within a game. I know mods and stuff can add it in, but it needs to be somehow possible, they can make it somewhat difficult or expensive, but I just hate playing a game when I can't respec and I horde points and really don't enjoy myself.

For short games I don't really care about respeccing. For long games, especially where points are limited, respecs are mandatory. It is one of the reasons I lost interest in dark souls.

I'd like to at least be able to respec the last level up I've done in Dark Souls.

A single point that is.


Free respec-ing.. Nah. But respec at some [in game] cost, okay.

My problem mainly comes with the fact that I'm 30, I'm married, I have a full time job, and I simply don't have the time I used to. If I get to a point at which I made some poor decisions and would need to restart my character, I just play something else.

I remember screwing up my initial point allocation in Fallout 2 so bad I got raped by the tutorial ants. Just imagine if I were able to progress further with my spec skills!

A yay from me.

Generally i think respecing is a good thing, especially if the game is combat focused.

If you're talking about games like Dark Souls then I'm against it.

If you're talking about games like Borderlands, where you can unlock special ability's that after using you might realize you don't like or don't fit your playstyle, then I am for re-specing.

Originally Posted by Lord-Audie

I understand the other point of view... you "need" to "pay" for your bad decisions. Then don't re-spec and start a new character and waste your time. Keep your masochistic tendencies from my games bro.

Thats not the only reason though. It also increases the affinity you feel towards the character you're playing. Its not just about punishing the player.

Definite yes for me, and I prefer them at no cost/penalty.

Typically games that have respecs are RPGs or generally long games. I want to experiment and try new things without having to play through several hours of the game again. I understand that it is done to preserve replay value but I typically don't replay long games unless they're truly exceptional, so it's a moot point for me

I favor respeccing but dramatically increasing the cost each time. So, for instance, your first respec is relatively cheap, but the second is expensive, the third is wildly expensive, etc, etc.

That way, I think it gives the out to players who have crippled their character inadvertently without realizing it, and also allows multiple respecs for those players who just want to play with a single character, but at the same time discouraging it.

However, this still wouldn't work for some games. For instance, the Elder Scrolls' method of advancement wouldn't really work with any respec method, obviously.

Honestly, what most games need is a playground mode where you can test out all the skills and see what you like. I liked how Deadspace 3 let you play around with crafted guns before committing to one.

Yes, even if it's gated by a cheap real money purchase (for MMOs at least).

On RPGs I tend to not re-spec because I like to play the character as I chose to develop them, for good or ill. Games like Borderlands 2 however, I would respec all the time and part of the enjoyment for me was trying different builds with characters and seeing all the crazy ways people came up with builds around, say, a particular weapon or shield, and what a powerhouse that would make you.

Originally Posted by spirity

Thats not the only reason though. It also increases the affinity you feel towards the character you're playing. Its not just about punishing the player.

What? I'm sorry but I can't comprehend this. I ain't putting a ring on it to feel that attached to it.

Guildwars 1 did it best. I really wish GW2 didn't change the whole skill system. In case if you didn't play you could have a main role and a secondary role. Each main role had a specific trait that would be a bonus for you. So an elementalist would get more mana, a necro would get mana back if a monster died, and ranger would have reduced mana for skills. Depending on how much you skilled that up it would be better. So a necro could just main in just the class specific trait and then have a secondary as either monk or ritualist and only take healing skills. As long as your team could kill enemies you wouldn't have mana problems.

Best part about it is that once you were back in town you could change specs instantly. Even have your skill builds saved and all of that. If you started as an axe warrior you could easily refund the points and turn to a sword build. You were not penalized for trying out new builds.

Why would anybody say nay??

Yay because developers are usually terrible at making tooltips and I don't know what exactly something is going to do until my character has it.

Originally Posted by spirity

Thats not the only reason though. It also increases the affinity you feel towards the character you're playing. Its not just about punishing the player.

It can easily punish you for building towards a certain skill that you think sounds useful or cool, and then ends up being useless. Or wasting too many points in early level skills that become obsolete later on a la Diablo 2. In games like that, even in Skyrim, I just hoarded my points and ended up not even spending most of them because I didn't want to end up with something useless.

I vote yay, but with some kind of increasing payment every time you do it.

Nope, I want consequences and I want my decisions to be meaningful.

Also, re-spec-ing encourages lazy design.

Originally Posted by Solstice

Depends on the game, really. Some game can get royally fucked if you spec wrong, while some just make it harder. If it's the former, respeccing is a must. If it's the latter, I can do without.

Perfect examples:

Diablo II - it can fuck you over extremely if you don't spec right

Dark Souls - It's inconvenient if you don't spec right at first, but you can always push through.

Which is a good thing.

Utterly important. Make it hurt you (in gold or something) but make it possible.

Originally Posted by Lord-Audie

What? I'm sorry but I can't comprehend this. I ain't putting a ring on it to feel that attached to it.

Well then it obviously doesn't work for you, does it? What do you want me to say. Thats one of the reasons why its done.

Re-specing should have a heavy in-game cost. I mean a full one and it should just get more expensive in costs/mats.

Not free to do like D3. (cheapens the experience imo, like using cheats)
Not like PoE where you only can respec per point. (pretty brutal, you will hit a wall)

I feel Mass Effect 3 did it perfectly.

Yay.

I can see the positives about locking into the choices you make for the duration of a game, but if the game makes it possible to seriously fuck yourself, then I definitely need to be able to respec.

Games where I can't respec I usually end up looking for guides online to make sure I don't dump points into the wrong areas, like "Swimming" in Deus Ex (can't remember if you can respec in that game).
Either that or I play it safe and just put points into Health, Strength, and Endurance which can get a little boring, but it's better than messing up and not being able to beat a game IMO.

But on the other hand, I do like respecing to be a big deal in games. In Borderlands 2 you can just respec whenever you feel like it with very little consequence (just a bit of money). It's nice to try out a few different builds in a short amount of time, but I like to stick with a build unless I'm forced to change.

I think the Dragon Age Origins expansion had a respec potion that was a single use item (can't remember if you could buy extras). That's a decent tradeoff since you get a chance to fix your screw-up, but you cant use it as a crutch to just alter your entire character build before every battle.

I'm all for reassigning points at any point of a game.

If a game doesn't have re-specing, I'm not playing it. I love to experiment with builds, especially at max level and if that requires of me to remake my character 100 times then that kills whatever motivation I have for playing the game.

Hell yes. What's the point of designing multiple ways to play a game if the player is going to be rigidly locked into one?

Yay.

Nothing worse than playing 40 hours and realizing that a skill that sounded fun at the beginning of the game was stunningly useless, and that another path unlocked God's Wrath on Earth or something.

Really depends on the game. For anything with a competitive nature they should only be available once or twice to fix mistakes or misconceptions you might of had with a skill. in single player games... who gives a fuck.

Originally Posted by Bedlam

Nope, I want consequences and I want my decisions to be meaningful.

Also, re-spec-ing encourages lazy design.

Your decisions can be just as meaningful if you simply choose not to respec. What is inherently wrong with having the option? And how exactly does it encourage lazy design?

Originally Posted by Solstice

Diablo II - it can fuck you over extremely if you don't spec right

And then there's Path of Exile. Not only can you totally screw yourself over in their massive skill tree, but then respecing is VERY limited. Like a few points here and there. It's the one thing I really hate about that game. (Everything I else I love, though. <3)

I like the way Etrian Odyssey handles it. You can re-spec, but you lose an amount of levels that you have to regain afterwards so you can't do it too often and you still need to put careful thought behind how you develop your party's skills.

I have 74 respecs in WoW. I like it.

Of course it should be available at a fairly cheap cost. I don't know what I may want to do down the road, I might spec into Column A and find a cool thing for Column B.

Games should be fun, not punish my decision making because I didn't have all the facts. I will never "play your game again" with a different spec, so give me the option to change, for cheap. Everybody is different.

Originally Posted by Finster

And then there's Path of Exile. Not only can you totally screw yourself over in their massive skill tree, but then respecing is VERY limited. Like a few points here and there. It's the one thing I really hate about that game. (Everything I else I love, though. <3)

I think they handled it very well. They give you enough that if you made some mistakes you can fix it, but if you just totally missed the mark you SOL or have to grind really hard.

I mean it's a game that's suppose to be played many many times on many different characters, so it's not even a big loss.

Originally Posted by Off-Kilter

Your decisions can be just as meaningful if you simply choose not to respec. What is inherently wrong with having the option?

When I play a game, I don't want to fight the urge to use some of its options just to make it better. It's the same with quicksaves that have completely destroyed challenge and tension in FPS games.

I would be fine with it if they gave me a harder difficulty setting where I can make the decision one and before I start the game.

Originally Posted by Off-Kilter

And how exactly does it encourage lazy design?

Because if you put in that option, it lessens the importance to balance it all properly.

Originally Posted by flyinpiranha

Of course it should be available at a fairly cheap cost. I don't know what I may want to do down the road, I might spec into Column A and find a cool thing for Column B.

Games should be fun, not punish my decision making because I didn't have all the facts. I will never "play your game again" with a different spec, so give me the option to change, for cheap. Everybody is different.

Risk and reward are inherent aspects of good game design.

Unfortunetly, today's games almost completely eliminate the risk. It's just boring content tourism now.

Yes.

Why? Because time is valuable for me. I don't have time to have to roll a new character to get that "perfect" build. I like to play around with builds and experiment. If a RPG or any game with a skill tree that matters doesn't have the ability to respec i won't buy it because i don't want to waste my time.

Originally Posted by Bedlam

The answers in this thread is why games nowadays hold the player's hands to an excessive degree. And why we get crap like Diablo 3.

People love unchallenging content tourism. It bores the shit out of me.

I'd be in favor of locking out respec'ing if games didn't generally have misbalanced skills. In almost every game where you pick skills, there will be some skills that will be nigh on useless when actually used, and unless you look stuff up you'd have no idea.

It's like going primarily with firearms in Arcanum. By the middle and end of the game you're kind of fucked, and it's presented by the game as a perfectly valid path.

Originally Posted by Finster

And then there's Path of Exile. Not only can you totally screw yourself over in their massive skill tree, but then respecing is VERY limited. Like a few points here and there. It's the one thing I really hate about that game. (Everything I else I love, though. <3)

Orb of Regret gives you a skill point back.

Originally Posted by Intheflorsh

Hell yes. What's the point of designing multiple ways to play a game if the player is going to be rigidly locked into one?

Because of the "Emotional Attachment" the player has with their character, apparently.

Not sure why people who don't like respecing can't just use their willpower and NOT respec if they want to play that way. Maybe they didn't put enough points into willpower. :D

I can understand not wanting a developer to be be lazy and using respecing as a crutch, but I think it's just as lazy to build a game where a character can pump all their points into a useless skill that won't let the player beat the game.

I think the key thing for developers to remember is just to make good games and avoid making bad ones. It's that easy!

I do think it hurts replay value if you can just respec your character for every challenging situation. I don't agree that anything outside of perhaps an MMO is particularly driven by an "affinity" for the character as was stated above, but I do see how it can minimize the importance of carefully investing in your character and sometimes taking risks over the usefulness of unknown abilities.

I also agree that games that do have it should more often than not make it extremely challenging or a one-off kind of deal to be allowed to do it. Witcher 2 is a good example of a quest that takes some out-of-the-way work to re-spec.

I'm all for it as far as 1.the points are limited and 2.its stuck behind some game mechanic so you can't change on the fly

Yay. I'd rather figure out how to build my character myself rather than do a bunch of research before I even start playing.

Yay but with a significant cost so you can't abuse it too much.

I will not sink another 30+ hours into a game just to start over with a different spec build. I value my time too much.

If a game doesn't offer respec-ing then I find a mod that allows it, in which case I usually find mods to change a lot of other things. If it's a console game then I spend hours researching the optimal spec build.

So either I circumvent it with mods and end up completely altering the game away from its intended vision...or I use third-party consultation to break the game's balance away from its intended difficulty. Neither scenario is what the designer wants. Best just to offer respec-ing.

For long games, there should always be an option.

I am definitely in favor of respeccing, it keeps the game fresh every time you want to try something different. It has to have a cost though, just being able to respec anything you want whenever you want makes your character feel like it's never really "anything" and instead has the potential to be that other thing on a whim.

I think path of exile does respeccing well, you have to have SOME idea of what you want to do with a character before you go all willy nilly and actually do it, but you can always refund a couple of points if you screw up or something.

Diablo 3 has an interesting twist on respecs, it treats your "build" more like a loadout than a real build, partly because interactivity between skills is so limited you end up bringing skills that serve specific purposes into a build than skills that truly build off each other, obviously there are exceptions to this.

World of Warcraft when it had actual talent trees had the right idea, each respec climbs up to 50g, which was a good amount through BC, it let you feel like you could play all aspects of your class should you be willing to pay the entry fee to do so.

It's also important for respecs to cost stuff since it helps balance the in game economy through a currency sink. In games currency is weird because it's technically infinite in supply.

On a minor rant, I wish it had existed in dark souls (it kinda existed in demon's souls to a degree with soul sucker). It would have been easy as hell to implement, the cost of respeccing a point is the same as the amount you spent to get that point (spend 10k souls to level up, spend 10k to get that point back). It would keep with the non forgiving nature of the game, since you'd have to farm back the amount you spent to refund your stuff and it would have spared me having to make new characters every time I wanted to try something different. After getting 3 characters to 120 you kinda start wishing there was an easier way to do this...and then magic happened the BB glitch was discoverd! Thank fucking god for the BB glitch, or I would have never tried making a theme character.

Originally Posted by Rodney McKay

Not sure why people who don't like respecing can't just use their willpower and NOT respec if they want to play that way. Maybe they didn't put enough points into willpower. :D

I don't play games to fight my urge to use options at all times.

As I said, I'd be fine with it if there would be a higher difficulty setting that does not allow respecing so I can make that decision once.