Yay, nay, or depends on the game?
That should have been the question. Its like asking if every single game should have quicksaves or difficulty sliders.
No but there should be some type of preview or a better description as to what the skill does.
Let me see how the skill would be used and what it does.
Someone mentioned Mass Effect 3. Perfect example of a game that does it wrong. Sure you can respec, but the powers tell you almost nothing. Cluster Grenades have a power upgrade to do 100% extra damage to lifted targets. Cluster grenades are usually on a character that has Pull, so you would think lifted targets means targets that you used Pull on. It doesn't, it means any target that has already been primed with a biotic power. Something as small as that makes a huge change in the way a character can be played.
there's so many cases like this in video games and it's just annoying.
Let me see how the skill would be used and what it does.
Someone mentioned Mass Effect 3. Perfect example of a game that does it wrong. Sure you can respec, but the powers tell you almost nothing. Cluster Grenades have a power upgrade to do 100% extra damage to lifted targets. Cluster grenades are usually on a character that has Pull, so you would think lifted targets means targets that you used Pull on. It doesn't, it means any target that has already been primed with a biotic power. Something as small as that makes a huge change in the way a character can be played.
there's so many cases like this in video games and it's just annoying.
Its essential in MMOs where you have invested hundreds of hours into a character, powers are constantly being rebalanced, and it takes a very sharp, focused build to perform at high-tier events. I don't think its as necessary in other games where the difficulty curve rarely keeps up with the late progression of your character, and you can make up for your mistakes with a little bit of grinding.
The idea of "Risk/Reward" usually goes:
Risk: you wasted your time.
Reward: Spend time looking for the perfect build online.
Risk: you wasted your time.
Reward: Spend time looking for the perfect build online.
So is this like prestiging in CoD, or wut?
It's not black and white. Making an ineffective build can teach you a lot about what makes the good ones tick. No, your time didn't go towards building and using the best possible thing, but I wouldn't call it wasted unless you have an extremely narrow view of what makes your time worthwhile.Originally Posted by Lord-Audie
The idea of "Risk/Reward" usually goes:
Risk: you wasted your time.
Reward: Spend time looking for the perfect build online.
"I have not failed 1,000 times. I have successfully discovered 1,000 ways to NOT make a light bulb." and all that.
You can't tell when playing the game how useful a skill/perk might be. Seems pretty unfair to permanently punish the player for sinking huge amounts of hours in because a perk is badly balanced and/or overpromises but doesn't deliver.
I will concede that re-spec-ing may be a necessity in mmo's. But in a game like Diablo 3, the whole re-spec-ing aspect annoys me.Originally Posted by Not Spaceghost
On some level I agree with that quote, but unfortunately I don't think that's how it is, especially if the game is multiplayer.
Nope.Originally Posted by Lord-Audie
The idea of "Risk/Reward" usually goes:
Risk: you wasted your time.
Reward: Spend time looking for the perfect build online.
That's the point though, there are games with many useless skills so developers can brag that they have over 100 skills which means over x number of combinations. Sometimes a player can end up with a build that initially looked solid but that it turns out you cannot complete the game with. Allowing people to change their build and get rid of skills that turned out to be useless or to not actually do what they advertise is not hand holding.I'd be sufficient if no skill was completely useless and you can complete the game with any of them.
Again: it shouldn't be about min/max-ing or about making the perfect build.
If I can fuck up my build and still complete a game via hard work and ingenuity than fine don't let me change shit. If however, there's actually only 20 builds you can complete a game with out of say 60 available then it's unfair to make me have to replay the whole game and either hope to pick better or use the internet to make sure what I'm using I viable.
Games should strive to allow people to make characters that are unique but also always viable.
Yes, I'm not 11 years old anymore, I don't want to waste time, if I am 20 hours into a game and find out the decisions I made when I didn't understand the system screwed me, I'm not going to start over. I'm going to trash the game.
The obvious response to this is that we're not inventing world-changing devices. We're playing a videogame."I have not failed 1,000 times. I have successfully discovered 1,000 ways to NOT make a light bulb." and all that.
respec'ing should be an end game feature. the game should be able to be beaten no matter how you spec out your skills and attributes.
facing consequences because you don't understand how the game works early on is bs. i've grown so conditioned to being fucked over and neurotic about making incorrect builds that i typically wont even add attributes or skill pts until its mandatory, and i know what weapons/skills are useful etc.
facing consequences because you don't understand how the game works early on is bs. i've grown so conditioned to being fucked over and neurotic about making incorrect builds that i typically wont even add attributes or skill pts until its mandatory, and i know what weapons/skills are useful etc.
Last edited by heckmanimation; 12-03-2013 at 07:52 PM.
Because it compromises the immersive quality of the game. Sure, there's nothing objectively wrong with Skyrim, it just fails to match my taste for appropriate consequences in a game that's based on playing in an open fantasy world. I play Skyrim and feel bored because nothing I do has any meaning. I play out Bethsoft's shitty quest lines and move on to the next as if with a totally clean slate.Originally Posted by flyinpiranha
With Skyrim, that's just game choice, you could still go through as a Mage the entire game and not join the Thieves Guild. But for those that WANT to do it all, why stop them?
Balancing N skills so that things are equally viable and fun within the game system... is impossible. I don't know how high N is but it's probably pretty low. Like in the single digits. Even fairly simple games that offer "stealth or combat" turn out usually to be way better in one or the other. So when you talk about games with lots of skills like Dragon Age forget it.Originally Posted by Chrono Helix
I think that would be a problem with the developer not doing a good job balancing the game, and not a problem with respecs per se.
Their point is that is affects the whole design of the game from the ground up, and inherently leads to a focus on consequence-free game design. I'm not sure I fully agree (or I don't believe it's the biggest thing that leads to that kind of design), but I can see why someone could think that.Originally Posted by flyinpiranha
What are your examples of where spec'ing ruined it for you?
I think it depends on the game, in some respecs fit, while others are better when you have to live with your choices (the latter is certainly harder to get right though). I'm not against respecs usually, but I don't think they need to be in every game with mutually exclusive skill choices.
Last edited by Mman235; 12-03-2013 at 07:52 PM.
That'd be exactly the kind of lazy design that I said is encouraged by having a re-spec-ing option.Originally Posted by Shinypogs
That's the point though, there are games with many useless skills so developers can brag that they have over 100 skills which means over x number of combinations. Sometimes a player can end up with a build that initially looked solid but that it turns out you cannot complete the game with. Allowing people to change their build and get rid of skills that turned out to be useless or to not actually do what they advertise is not hand holding.
I have never encountered a game without the option of re-spec-ing that I couldn't possibly complete just because I've chosen my skills poorly.Originally Posted by Shinypogs
If I can fuck up my build and still complete a game via hard work and ingenuity than fine don't let me change shit. If however, there's actually only 20 builds you can complete a game with out of say 60 available then it's unfair to make me have to replay the whole game and either hope to pick better or use the internet to make sure what I'm using I viable.
I'd add that games with consequences are much more satisfying.Their point is that is affects the whole design of the game from the ground up, and inherently leads to a focus on consequence-free game design. I'm not sure I fully agree (or I don't believe it's the biggest thing that leads to that kind of design), but I can see why someone could think that.
I think it depends on the game, in some respecs fit, while others are better when you have to live with your choices (the latter is certainly harder to get right though). I'm not against respecs usually, but I don't think they need to be in every game.
Respec at the beginning of the game (kind of like New Vegas). Maybe another option with penalties after you beat the game. No respec anytime in between.
Re-specing should always be an option. Those that feel they are above it can continue to feel superior to the rest of us by simply not using it.
Full respec for free, without any loss/cost/cooldown is a stupid way of doing things, it means you have access to everything at every time, so basically why even have skill trees or systems alike in the first place ?
It needs to have some sort of cost, which can be tuned depending on the game genre, or difficulty level.
MMo's are maybe the exception to this.
It needs to have some sort of cost, which can be tuned depending on the game genre, or difficulty level.
MMo's are maybe the exception to this.
In the case of D2, if you were not aware of the content in Hell before starting the game you could literally screw yourself over by going into lets say all in Physical + Cold damage and then when you get into Hell mode you would hit a brick wall where you couldn't progress because you were up against a Cold + Physical immune Champ pack.Yes and no. You need to make sure you're using a well-optimized build if your goal is to "pilot" it for maximum competitive performance, but that's not strictly necessary (in most cases) if you're just talking about playing and enjoying the game. Also, there will always be some innovative players who develop new ideas that change the metagame.
In that situation a re-spec would be necessary because your only other choice would be to re-roll a new character. That is pretty much why almost no ARPG these days have immunity monsters like in D2, that was a bad design choice.
That's a situation where a re-spec would be needed. D2 did eventually add a re-spec option though. The only time where no re-spec should be allowed at all is in a game where no matter what you do you can at least progress in the game (with varying levels of difficulties) alone.
Easy mode re-specing however changes a RPG to a full on action game. Like the current Diablo 3 where you can freely allocate stat points, skills, passives at any time even mid combat makes that game more like an action game with load outs than an RPG. You are not really invested in your character in that situation nor are you invested in their abilities where as in most other RPGs you are pretty much invested in the character and skills you invested in like PoE.
Not saying one is better than the other but its a key difference that should be highlighted.
Not a Diablo 2 player I guess? You could easily gimp your character in that game. Especially before they introduced synergies into skill choices.That'd be exactly the kind of lazy design that I said is encouraged by having a re-spec-ing option.
I have never encountered a game without the option of re-spec-ing that I couldn't possibly complete just because I've chosen my skills poorly.
Yes you could beat normal and nightmare. But hell?
Yeah, I think it's more of a Skyrim issue, then the actual idea of respec. For example if you went to another Guild another leader would take over the one you left, not just have ultra-leader everywhere. Basically Skyrim is North Korea and You're The Kim Jong-unborne. BUT, with some tweaks to the questing system they could have fixed that.Originally Posted by MadSexual
Because it compromises the immersive quality of the game. Sure, there's nothing objectively wrong with Skyrim, it just fails to match my taste for appropriate consequences in a game that's based on playing in an open fantasy world. I play Skyrim and feel bored because nothing I do has any meaning. I play out Bethsoft's shitty quest lines and move on to the next as if with a totally clean slate.
I don't feel superior to anyone here, I just want my games to be satisfying and motivating.Re-specing should always be an option. Those that feel they are above it can continue to feel superior to the rest of us by simply not using it.
Last edited by Bedlam; 12-03-2013 at 08:00 PM.
I agree with Bedlam; everything he said, fullstop. "I say thee nay!", to re-specs.
Yes but it should have a decent in game currency cost.
Not too hefty, but not inconsequential.
Not too hefty, but not inconsequential.
Exactly. It isn't that we want to be superior, lol. It is that we want our games to be what we feel is the superior experience. Why people who want to have their easy-mode games would get offended at this, is beyond me.I don't feel superior to anyone here, I just want my games to be satisfying.
It really just seems silly to me. For me it's not an urge, it's just a simple single decision NOT to do something. It's about playing a game the way you want to play a game.I don't play games to fight my urge to use options at all times.
As I said, I'd be fine with it if there would be a higher difficulty setting that does not allow respecing so I can make that decision once.
I don't have a constant obsession over this one tiny option every second that I'm playing a game, eating away at me. It's like: "Nah, I don't want to respec with this playthrough" decision made, full stop.
Last edited by Rodney McKay; 12-03-2013 at 08:05 PM.
What examples of games were ruined by this option and what games do you consider satisfying and motivating?I don't feel superior to anyone here, I just want my games to be satisfying and motivating.
I'm just curious about examples because we could discuss yay or nay without actually saying 'anything'. I explained with WoW and have touched upon Skyrim. For me, the most challenging thing I have done in gaming was clearing early WoW bosses (besides some great scores in Tetris and clearing the ships in SMB3, and other older games but there wasn't a 'respec' option in those so I can't compare them).
Borderlands I LOVED being able to try out new builds. Same with WoW, Guild Wars 2, Skyrim, and others that I can remember. Not once did the ability ever take away from my enjoyment or feel of "satisfaction" nor did it de-motivate me to continue playing.
Because it doesn't make it "easy mode". If I have a Warrior in WoW that I brought up as a Tank, do you really think it's a good way to spend my time to level up that SAME class with a DPS spec, then level ANOTHER one up with a PVP spec? Plus gearing them? That sounds like like nothing more than adding a grind to an already grindy game and an absolutely HORRIBLE way to spend my time. My character still has to perform as each of these roles, how I got to that point is irrelevant.Exactly. It isn't that we want to be superior, lol. It is that we want our games to be what we feel is the superior experience. Why people who want to have their easy-mode games would get offended at this, is beyond me.
Like Bedlam, what are you examples of games with a respec that "ruined" it by making it easy mode?
Last edited by flyinpiranha; 12-03-2013 at 08:09 PM.
I do not see how you can not see it. It fundamentally changes the very foundation of a game's play dynamic. The very fact that it is there, makes the game itself a very different experience. Rock, paper, scissors is all fine and dandy. Rock, paper, scissors, shotgun... not so much.
Can you explain how it ruins the game in more detail? I don't quite see it at all. If you don't want to use a respec option, just ignore it, and play the game as though it weren't there.I do not see how you can not see it. It fundamentally changes the very foundation of a game's play dynamic. The very fact that it is there, makes the game itself a very different experience. Rock, paper, scissors is all fine and dandy. Rock, paper, scissors, shotgun... not so much.
Ruined? Diablo 3 and Bethesda RPGs (in the "my actions don't have consequences"-sense, also because of the enemies leveling with you).Originally Posted by flyinpiranha
What examples of games were ruined by this option and what games do you consider satisfying and motivating?
The game's I consider motivating? The Souls and Witcher games, for example (back then obviously cRPGs from Bioware and Black Isle; and I loved Diablo 1).
Again: I conceded that mmo's probably need to have a re-spec option.
The human mind is weak and I don't want to constantly fight the urge. Just as I would use quicksaves even though I know it ruins the game.That's fine, but are you against having the option to respec? You could still have your satisfying & motivational experience.
I'll bring this up again because no one gave me an answer: what about adding a difficulty that doesn't allow re-spec-ing? That'd be alright with me if I only have to make that decision once and don't have to think about it for the rest of the game.
Last edited by Bedlam; 12-03-2013 at 08:14 PM.
Yeah, I really don't have time to waste anymore. Back in the day I'd think nothing of getting D2 characters to Hell difficulty only to discover they kinda sucked and reroll. Now that I am an adult with much less free time I sure as hell am not going to start over, I'll just pick up a new game. Even if my character is not gimped, I'd like the option to respec just to try different playstyles without rerolling.
And that's when you re-spec.It's not black and white. Making an ineffective build can teach you a lot about what makes the good ones tick. No, your time didn't go towards building and using the best possible thing, but I wouldn't call it wasted unless you have an extremely narrow view of what makes your time worthwhile.
"I have not failed 1,000 times. I have successfully discovered 1,000 ways to NOT make a light bulb." and all that.
Most of the time you become aware that you wasted spec points hours and hours into the game. I for one don't like the idea of starting from scratch to basically risk happening it to me again. Or basically looking online for the one spec allocation to rule them all.
The fact that you can screw yourself by spec-ing wrong is a design flaw. A good developer would make all builds viable. With their own strengths and weaknesses.
On normal difficulties you should be able to, it's more fun to try yourself then looking up guides and tips n tricks online to copy someone else's build out of fear of stranding a wrecked ship. Your own build is almost always more rewarding and satisfying.
An absolute necessity in any game that doesn't intend to waste gamers time to pad the clock. If you don't like your build, or you messed it up you absolutely should be able to change it.
I think respecs should be standard, that being said, respecs is never a problem for me since I tend to be lazy and just live with the choices I've made. If I like the game well enough then I'll just go out of my way to max everything anyways.
In multiplayer games like MMOs in can lead to homogenization.
It makes for more interesting gameplay if a player can choose conditional utility over the most well-rounded build. Plus those players can then fill a special role in a guild or be in demand for groups.
It makes for more interesting gameplay if a player can choose conditional utility over the most well-rounded build. Plus those players can then fill a special role in a guild or be in demand for groups.
Yay.
Re-specing is playing the game. Don't "punish" me for playing your game.
And to those who are against re-specing, or doing so freely... If you don't like it, then don't do it. If you want to increase the difficulty for your own sake, then don't respec. It's kinda like the cheating vs not cheating rule. In a single-player game, if you don't like cheats, then don't cheat! Seems like a pretty straightforward viewpoint to me.
Re-specing is playing the game. Don't "punish" me for playing your game.
And to those who are against re-specing, or doing so freely... If you don't like it, then don't do it. If you want to increase the difficulty for your own sake, then don't respec. It's kinda like the cheating vs not cheating rule. In a single-player game, if you don't like cheats, then don't cheat! Seems like a pretty straightforward viewpoint to me.
In MMOs it needs to be allowed in at least a limited use fashion because the developers need to be able to rebalance stuff. They can't force players to keep a build that used to be awesome but has now been nerfed.In multiplayer games like MMOs in can lead to homogenization.
It makes for more interesting gameplay if a player can choose conditional utility over the most well-rounded build. Plus those players can then fill a special role in a guild or be in demand for groups.
The homogenization will occur anyways.In multiplayer games like MMOs in can lead to homogenization.
It makes for more interesting gameplay if a player can choose conditional utility over the most well-rounded build. Plus those players can then fill a special role in a guild or be in demand for groups.
I don't like it, but its necessary.
Too often are skills poorly designed, explained, or just plain useless. Players shouldn't be punished for bad development decisions.
Too often are skills poorly designed, explained, or just plain useless. Players shouldn't be punished for bad development decisions.
That will happen regardless. Without re-spec you will end up with a useless character that cannot be rebuild and no one will want to party up with you.In multiplayer games like MMOs in can lead to homogenization.
It makes for more interesting gameplay if a player can choose conditional utility over the most well-rounded build. Plus those players can then fill a special role in a guild or be in demand for groups.
At some point MMO end game is encouraged to have a certain built if you want to play.
Part of the appeal in the game is to make a Build that can pass through Hell...Not a Diablo 2 player I guess? You could easily gimp your character in that game. Especially before they introduced synergies into skill choices.
Yes you could beat normal and nightmare. But hell?
No one I know passed through the game with their first character. Same with Path of Exile.
You have to learn what works with your playstyle, learns the mechanics of the game and learn the monsters. Those game are made around making more and more characters.
lol so you don't want to respec, but if the option is there you can't keep yourself from doing it? Why? Maybe because you want to try new things and not waste your time? Hmmm. I think it's funny that because you can't keep yourself from using it, it should therefore be removed :PThe human mind is weak and I don't want to constantly fight the urge. Just as I would use quicksaves even though I know it ruins the game.
I'll bring this up again because no one gave me an answer: what about adding a difficulty that doesn't allow re-spec-ing? That'd be alright with me if I only have to make that decision once and don't have to think about it for the rest of the game.
The difficulty level thing isn't a bad suggestion, but I don't see how it's much different from just opting not to use respecing. You're just making the decision at the outset of the game as opposed to not making the decision while playing.
I did not say that it ruins the game. I said it fundamentally changes the gameplay, how it is approached, and ultimately what type of game the game is. For me, such games are not fun, comparatively.Can you explain how it ruins the game in more detail? I don't quite see it at all. If you don't want to use a respec option, just ignore it, and play the game as though it weren't there.
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