NeoGAF

This topic could be very easily misunderstood, so let me try to be precise here.

The goal is to reconcile the laser focus of the linear levels in 3D Land and 3D World, with the open playground, sense of place and feeling of adventure in SM64 and Sunshine. I'll elaborate on what this means and why I think it's desirable in a moment.

But first... By "Metroidvania," I don't mean using items to progressively explore an interconnected world. There are NO items here. (There would be power-ups, but they're not essential)

Rather, I mean "Metroidvania" in the sense of Dark Souls, where you have a sprawling world that branches off in all different directions -- some easier, some harder -- and you can tackle them however you see fit, whenever you see fit. In this case, a player would only be held back by their own platforming skill -- something that would naturally grow with time as they continue to play.

More advanced players, or players willing to repeatedly fail a difficult stretch of the world until they beat it, could proceed to harder parts of the game without clearing easier parts. But even the "easier" parts would be interesting due to theme, gimmicks or other distinguishing features, and have something worth collecting for your trouble. In this way they would avoid tedium for advanced players.

Think of the overall design like spokes on a wheel, each spoke being a platforming gauntlet. To the west of the starting area, you may have a mountainside teeming with rising and falling elevators, wall-jumpable chasms, spring pads and more. To the east, you may have a series of spiraling logs and teeter-totters to scamper across.

Each of those gauntlets would be a well-crafted point-A-to-point-B experience, but feel like part of a continuous world and something you're uncovering -- hearkening back to the days when you could look to the top of the mountain in Bob-Omb Battlefield and think, "I can get there," and then do so, but taking that concept to a new level of scope, and without dumbing down the moment-to-moment gameplay.

Nintendo is clearly not going in this direction, and that's fine -- their current approach with 3D Land/3D World is obviously wonderful in its own right. I just wonder if something like this might satisfy the yearning of some to explore Mario spaces that feel like, well, spaces in the Mario universe -- something that really invites you to go all-out with exploration and experimentation. A true "next-gen" evolution of the sort of boundless sky-is-the-limit freedom the Wing Cap offered in SM64, but with the sort of disciplined design that comes from the more focused gauntlets of latter-day 3D Mario.

Hopefully this makes some sense. For all my adoration of 3D Land/World, I do see plenty of merit in the old approach, and I just wonder if there's a way to merge the two.

Jak and Daxter?

Mario with no levels? Could be interesting.

I don't know though. I mean the whole point of Mario is getting that star, or reaching the flag pole. That's his main objective. You essentially would be taking that away, no?

I'd rather have a Metroid game in this style.

If we are using an existing game for what you are proposing, it would essentially be similar to the Banjo-Kazooie series. Banjo-Tooie in particular really went in that direction with one huge connected world and I'd totally be down for that! (I can't hide my love for that IP :D)

Although I'm not sure if Mario is the greatest fit for that, maybe another go at 3D Donkey Kong? (with heavily scaled back collecting of course)

Originally Posted by Frumix

Jak and Daxter?

Heh, I was just thinking this as well...but was it really "open"? There were smaller worlds but between a lot of them were stupid biking sections or something that prevented you from moving on unless you collect X of item Y. It's in the right direction though, something like that with more exploration (and preferably less collectathon) would be really cool.

Originally Posted by hwy_61

Mario with no levels? Could be interesting.

I don't know though. I mean the whole point of Mario is getting that star, or reaching the flag pole. That's his main objective. You essentially would be taking that away, no?

What if the whole world is one big flagpole, maaaaaaan

Originally Posted by hwy_61

Mario with no levels? Could be interesting.

I don't know though. I mean the whole point of Mario is getting that star, or reaching the flag pole. That's his main objective. You essentially would be taking that away, no?

In this "mega level" model of Mario, you could have stars as an objective, and perhaps stars could open certain pathways that could bypass more difficult stretches, but those more difficult stretches, if attempted earlier and overcome through skill, could essentially bypass such gating and make finishing those easy areas only necessary from a completionist standpoint. Of course, the focus would be to make ALL areas fun, even if they vary in difficulty.

I like this idea. It's not the only way open-world-ish 3D Mario could work, but it's one way I'd really like to see.

At the risk of cluttering the thread with my own conception of it (and I'm sure this has been said before), I really think a GTA-style sandbox (or perhaps more aptly, Lego City style, though I haven't played it) could be totally fun in a Mario world. Hidden collectibles, goombas and koopas everywhere...and then talking to Toads or doing something else would initiate challenges. The challenges could transform the surroundings to become smaller contained levels in themselves if need be. No fetch quests would be necessary here. I doubt I'll ever see it happen but I bet if Nintendo threw their weight at it, it would turn out to be magical.

Edit: actually, I could see the way I'm thinking of the challenges/sidequests things actually fitting into your design really well. I could also see having usable Mario Karts to travel highways between places to be a fun diversion.

Originally Posted by Neiteio

In this "mega level" model of Mario, you could have stars as an objective, and perhaps stars could open certain pathways that could bypass more difficult stretches, but those more difficult stretches, if attempted earlier and overcome through skill, could essentially bypass such gating and make finishing those easy areas only necessary from a completionist standpoint. Of course, the focus would be to make ALL areas fun, even if they vary in difficulty.

So, Super Mario RPG+Mario 64?

That sounds incredible.

I don't know if I'd be into a completely Metroidvania styled Mario - but it would be cool within the 64/Sunshine/Galaxy structure where you have to do something in one level to open up the ability to get a star in another.

Kinda like the hidden gem paths in the original Crash Bandicoot.

All I'm thinking about is how painfully annoying it would be to run through the same 5 jumping segments 15 times going back and forth and around.
In Dark Souls it works because when you're pumped up it's effortless. But jumping around and shit will just get old quick if you're CONSTANTLY doing it, just to navigate a map.

Your idea reminds me a bit of Super Mario Land 2, except the overworld would now be more of a platforming open-world than a map. It could work, I suppose, but I also feel like it could just add filler into a system that doesn't need it.

Originally Posted by H3XAntiStyle

All I'm thinking about is how painfully annoying it would be to run through the same 5 jumping segments 15 times going back and forth and around.

In Dark Souls it works because when you're pumped up it's effortless. But jumping around and shit will just get old quick if you're CONSTANTLY doing it, just to navigate a map.

That's called a design challenge, and it could be solved. Possible solution: Clearing a complex stretch gets you to a ! switch... which when pressed, opens a warp pipe shortcut to the previous area.

Yep, that is the way an open world Mario needs to go. Larger areas connected to more straightforward platforming segments. Pretty much just every level in 3D World interconnected to each other.

This is a great idea. Jak and Daxter didn't exactly do what Neiteio is suggesting, but it was similar. It wasn't the same because it was still done in a semi-sequential order. Sure, you could choose between the jungle and the beach, or the underwater city, basin, or swamp, but you were still confined to certain hub areas. You had to go Sandover Village - Rock Village - Volcano - Tower, no exceptions. It was more like Mario 64 with its star doors, in this respect, but with less choice involved.

Honestly, I love the way Mario 64 and Jak and Daxter did it - it gave a sense of progression that you'd kind of lose out on with this idea, at least to an extent. You felt like you earned the right to enter that door on the second floor, or the right to go to Rock Village's areas. But even though that sense of progression is awesome, this idea would also be awesome.

What's being proposed here is a complete dissolution of linearity. I don't think that's ever been done before, at least in a platformer/adventure game (I haven't played Link Between Worlds yet, and I don't remember Banjo-Tooie at all, so correct me if I'm wrong) but I'd be totally down for that. It would be different, sure, but I can see this idea being really creative and bringing a new experience to the table. It would really give the player a sense of freedom and exploration that linearity simply cannot.

A Metroidvania game from Nintendo that's not Metroid would make me shit out my brain.

I think nearly every game would benefit from that sort of approach.

Originally Posted by Neiteio

That's called a design challenge, and it could be solved. Possible solution: Clearing a complex stretch gets you to a ! switch... which when pressed, opens a warp pipe shortcut to the previous area.

Hrm... I just don't see it working.
Disclaimer: I didn't like Mario 64 as much as everyone else, I like the ultra tight 2D games /3D Land/World.

I think this is the way to go, at least for the next Mario. And I had a very similar idea to yours in a past thread, though I think it went unnoticed. I personally think this would be THE best approach for a Mario game. But with the current EAD leadership I just don't see it happening.

Originally Posted by H3XAntiStyle

Hrm... I just don't see it working.
Disclaimer: I didn't like Mario 64 as much as everyone else, I like the ultra tight 2D games /3D Land/World.

Cool. You got it. Now it's time for something different.

Originally Posted by H3XAntiStyle

Hrm... I just don't see it working.

How? Using a warp is the same damn thing as picking a level off a hub map, except now players can choose to warp or just explore the whole way.

This is one of those threads where for some odd reason I thought my posting was half worthwhile, but really isn't. :X

Although didn't one of the Prince of Persia's do this? The second one of the GCN era series?

Originally Posted by TheCongressman1

Yep, that is the way an open world Mario needs to go. Larger areas connected to more straightforward platforming segments. Pretty much just every level in 3D World interconnected to each other.

If Mario would just take some cues from Tony Hawk's American Wasteland, the platforming genre would be revolutionized!

Although jokes aside, I could see this working, if done well. Something like Jak and Daxter, but with a more deliberately designed/intertwining layout ala Dark Souls or Metroid or something.

Ugh, that being said I just feel dirty imagining people touting their platformers as "inspired by Dark Souls and Castlevania and Metroid!" like on Kickstarter.

Originally Posted by TheCongressman1

I don't understand why. Those games are the top of the line when it comes to level design. More people should take inspiration from them.

I'm not saying Dark Souls has bad level design. A platformer with that sort of level layout could be really cool. I'm just making a crack about how "castlevania meets dark souls!" has become the indie version of "visceral and cinematic."

Seems like it would be incredibly difficult to design.

Originally Posted by TheSpaceBetween

Seems like it would be incredibly difficult to design.

It would require a piecemeal approach. First you'd have open areas with interesting geography that would be designed one at a time like the maps in SM64 and Sunshine. Then you'd have the various branches spinning off of them that would connect the playgrounds and be designed one at a time like the levels in 3D Land and 3D World.

They'd aim for a similar number of levels to 3D Land/3D World, and use them to connect and interconnect the playgrounds. There'd be a blend of options in any given area, from the "Super Bell Hill" easy to the "Champions Road" hard.

And perhaps in the end you could even get something like the Wing Cap and experience the reward of being able to freely fly over the "mega level" in its entirety. Until then, you'd avoid the tedium of backtracking by opening warp pipes to previous areas, while those who want to huff it on foot can do so and find creative new ways of traversal in the process.

Originally Posted by hwy_61

So, Super Mario RPG+Mario 64?

That sounds incredible.

"brb using imagination since this game won't happen"

there was a paper mario with regular 2d platforming but it didn't live up to what i hyped it to be in my mind

Think of it like a Mario where you look around and feel compelled to run and play in 10 different directions at once; where each of those directions offers the density of design in 3D Land/World; and where you avoid the "anti-climax" of being dropped back on a map when you reach one of many potential objectives. Instead you have 10 new avenues in mind to check out, for every avenue you explore, and every summit you reach reveals more intricately crafted gauntlets heading up and down and all-around. And they all interconnect and ultimately loop back in on themselves for a real sense of place -- something with a bit more weight and personality than the usual abstraction of random elements in the middle of nowhere.

It's the best solution. A true open world wouldn't really work since those genres are at odds. Open worlds are about removing boundaries, whereas platformers are defined by boundaries. So the Metroidvania style would work best. Seamless, yet gated. It's very important that a platformer have linearity in it's challenges so that you can't simply subvert them. And Dark Souls is the best comparison. Just replace the natural obstacles in Dark Souls (combat) with obstacles suited to a platformer.

So basically you want a Metroidvania "Luigi's Mansion".

Only read Metroidvania. Assumes it's about castles and exploration

I feel like Nintendo already has a series that works well with the Metroidvania formula...

Originally Posted by Neiteio

Think of it like a Mario where you look around and feel compelled to run and play in 10 different directions at once; where each of those directions offers the density of design in 3D Land/World; and where you avoid the "anti-climax" of being dropped back on a map when you reach one of many potential objectives. Instead you have 10 new avenues in mind to check out, for every avenue you explore, and every summit you reach reveals more intricately crafted gauntlets heading up and down and all-around. And they all interconnect and ultimately loop back in on themselves for a real sense of place -- something with a bit more weight and personality than the usual abstraction of random elements in the middle of nowhere.

That would have to be a big ass world for this to work. Mario's always runnin. That's when it's fun. When you have this momentum, smashin bricks, fuckin shit up. Ambitious ideas, man.

Originally Posted by Gsnap

It's the best solution. A true open world wouldn't really work since those genres are at odds. Open worlds are about removing boundaries, whereas platformers are defined by boundaries. So the Metroidvania style would work best. Seamless, yet gated. It's very important that a platformer have linearity in it's challenges so that you can't simply subvert them. And Dark Souls is the best comparison. Just replace the natural obstacles in Dark Souls (combat) with obstacles suited to a platformer.

Yes, exactly! :)

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

So basically you want a Metroidvania "Luigi's Mansion".

I don't recall much platforming in Luigi's Mansion. (Love both of 'em, though)

Nintendo releases the best 3D platformer in a decade and gamers still aren't happy?

I've never been a fan of the idea of returning to "exploration" based open world Mario BUT if it were to happen, then, yeah, this is the idea I would want to see. Take all of the ideas and levels of a Galaxy style game and cram them together like LEGO blocks next to one another. Exploring should be a game and involve just as much platforming as the actual levels of one of the latest titles, not simply walking or jumping without any demand on timing or accuracy in an overworld.

Originally Posted by aidan

Nintendo releases the best 3D platformer in a decade and gamers still aren't happy?

He's just tossing an idea out, man. I don't think he has any beef with 3D World. (And Galaxy came out years ago.)

Originally Posted by aidan

Nintendo releases the best 3D platformer in a decade and gamers still aren't happy?

Did you even read the OP, dude? Jesus.

Originally Posted by aidan

Nintendo releases the best 3D platformer in a decade and gamers still aren't happy?

3D Land and 3D World were both wonderful, as I said in the OP. But we're talking about two different things here -- apples (3D Land/World) and oranges (SM64/Sunshine). Equally delicious, but each their own flavor. The question is, can we merge those flavors into a delicious Mario smoothie that can combine the appeal of both formats? I'm proposing one way that might be possible, albeit a very design-intensive way. :)

This is exactly what I wanted from the new 3D Mario game. 3D World is great for what it is, but it's not the direction I wanted the series to go in.

I'd rather it be a Wario game but sure that sounds fun

If they were to do this, I feel like it would also be the perfect opportunity to bring back the bigger moveset from 64, which is really the only thing I felt was off in the Galaxy and 3D titles. Watching sig's speedruns have me wanting it back, even if 64 itself didn't really require you to utilize them.

After reading the OP I have to say for this to work it would probably have to be somewhere else then 3D Mario, maybe in a Mario RPG perhaps but 3D Mario has always been based on a form of linear progression in any level or level based "world". For me it is hard to imagine a huge open world 3D Mario. And I say this with consideration for all the different environments such as huge beaches, area's made of blocks, even cookies and cakes, in the clouds, volcanic area's and of course inside internal structures such as battleships and castles. It's a lot to think about and consider.

Now if we were to say split a open world format by mishmashing a world with synonymous themes as stated and meld them into one mega level and do that then maybe it could work out but that would take a lot of effort and time I would think to make everything flow seamlessly and naturally while also not looking out of place.

Originally Posted by Neiteio

Rather, I mean "Metroidvania" in the sense of Dark Souls, where you have a sprawling world that branches off in all different directions -- some easier, some harder -- and you can tackle them however you see fit, whenever you see fit. In this case, a player would only be held back by their own platforming skill -- something that would naturally grow with time as they continue to play.

So basically Prince of Persia 2008 just done right. Making all 4 gauntlets equally viable really hurt the game in the end. I could see your approach working for Mario but I've never been a huge fan of open/exploration platformers. I guess it depends on how dense the world is and as long as there are warp points, I wouldn't mind.

Originally Posted by Spring-Loaded

Metroid Prime managed to have "lava level, snow level, jungle level, water level" areas while they were all connected. Some of those were separated by elevatros, sure, but still all conceivably a part of the same world.

You raise a good point.

Originally Posted by Spring-Loaded

Metroid Prime managed to have "lava level, snow level, jungle level, water level" areas while they were all connected. Some of those were separated by elevatros, sure, but still all conceivably a part of the same world.

Could you say the same about Galaxy 1 + 2 levels though? I think it would be almost impossible to create a world that is both seamless and cohesive out of the various galaxies. There was just too much crazy stuff. You'd need a system similar to the portraits in SM64.

I support this idea. General speaking, I personally prefer linear platforming. I much preferred the Galaxy and DKCR approach than Banjo Kazooie, for example. But, as someone else said, those linear Mario games exist and it would be good to give the series a refresh.

Another poster compared the idea to a recent PoP and I think PoP 08 is probably what they were thinking of.

"Open-world" and "Metroidvania" are the 2 biggest buzzwords used by people who have no idea how to design a good video game.