While i'll agree intro level tutorials in western can sometimes drag (I like them a lot actually, it is important that someone lays out the rules and controls of the game), but holy crap at Japanese games.....now yes Im making some generalizations but from what Ive seen...Japanese games tend to do one of three things
A) Throw you in the deep end of menus and explains literally nothing (except of course that the attack button is to attack and the magic button is to use magic)
or
B) Copy pasting what would be in a hypothetical manual
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...wYgMa4Fg#t=543
or
C) Are FF13
Now I do not like being spoon fed, but damn it would be nice if Japanese devs gave some sort of explanation of deeper mechanics of the game or used the show dont tell form of teaching. I think we understand how attack and magic work, but if you are about to explain some deep crafting system do not say "Items can be combined to form other items. Find more crafting items on your journey to create powerful weapons and armor!" and leave it at that.....if I have to google something to explain a basic mechanic you did something wrong.
I'll take a japanese tutorial over the horror that is the Need for Speed Rivals tutorial any day
I feel the same way a lot of the time. It could be because a lot of the Japanese games I play are more 'complex' than a lot of western games I play though. Some JRPGs have insane menus and crazy amounts of combat options and features. Western games sometime hold your hand too much though.
Maybe slim tutorials make you a better learner.
EDIT: The FF13 tutorial meme should probably die by now if people are including it in this kind of conversation. It is not a literal tutorial, it just holds back mechanics for too long (just because a game introduces mechanics later doesn't mean everything earlier is a tutorial). Nintendo makes more sense.
EDIT: The FF13 tutorial meme should probably die by now if people are including it in this kind of conversation. It is not a literal tutorial, it just holds back mechanics for too long (just because a game introduces mechanics later doesn't mean everything earlier is a tutorial). Nintendo makes more sense.
Last edited by Riposte; Yesterday at 05:45 AM.
Yes they are. If only more games would allow you to skip them.
My most common problem particularly with Japanese games is that they throw everything at you at once in the tutorial before you even start the game. Guilty Gears 2: Overture was the worst. Before I even fought my first opponent it forced me through an exhaustive tutorial introducing more mechanics than I could remember. I just wanted to play the game. Not study it. They should let the players just play and let the player learn things on their own. I don't need to be taught. I will experiment and work most things out on my own. I certainly don't need information overload before I even get to play the game.
My most common problem particularly with Japanese games is that they throw everything at you at once in the tutorial before you even start the game. Guilty Gears 2: Overture was the worst. Before I even fought my first opponent it forced me through an exhaustive tutorial introducing more mechanics than I could remember. I just wanted to play the game. Not study it. They should let the players just play and let the player learn things on their own. I don't need to be taught. I will experiment and work most things out on my own. I certainly don't need information overload before I even get to play the game.
Last edited by old; Yesterday at 05:58 AM.
I love learning complex Japanese systems (or complex mechanics of games of any origin). But tutorials are terrible in most places.
I'd rather they throw me in the deep end then pause every second to explain every little thing.
I'd rather they throw me in the deep end then pause every second to explain every little thing.
The opening tutorial area for Kingdom Hearts is truly god awful. Holy shit, does it start a great game on the worst fucking foot.
Which game are you talking about here?Now I do not like being spoon fed, but damn it would be nice if Japanese devs gave some sort of explanation of deeper mechanics of the game or used the show dont tell form of teaching. I think we understand how attack and magic work, but if you are about to explain some deep crafting system do not say "Items can be combined to form other items. Find more crafting items on your journey to create powerful weapons and armor!" and leave it at that.....if I have to google something to explain a basic mechanic you did something wrong.
When they don't make good tutorials, it's even worse, they do it because reviewers don't want to experiment at all.
I remember how reviewers didn't know how to dodge in MGR or do ANYTHING in W101, always amusing. So yeah, they better keep the tutorials or lose points in metacritic because honestly, most people suck at games.
I remember how reviewers didn't know how to dodge in MGR or do ANYTHING in W101, always amusing. So yeah, they better keep the tutorials or lose points in metacritic because honestly, most people suck at games.
Last edited by Mauricio_Magus; Yesterday at 06:00 AM.
Persona for one...incredibly complex fuse system boiled down into "Fuse Personas to make new Personas!"...also I am still unsure as to how the sell materials system works......Originally Posted by cosmicblizzard
Which game are you talking about here?
Oh yeah fighting game tutorials are stupid good...Im thinking more JRPGs and character action games
Not true...games with completely new system such as W101 really do need to explain how it works....havent played the game so I cant comment too much, but from what Ive seen is does look pretty complexOriginally Posted by Mauricio_Magus
When they don't make good tutorials, it's even worse, they do it because reviewers are stupid.
I remember how reviewers didn't know how to dodge in MGR or do ANYTHING in W101, always amusing. So yeah, they better keep the tutorials or lose points in metacritic because honestly, most people suck at games.
Last edited by sn00zer; Yesterday at 05:57 AM.
Now THAT was ridiculous, same as people not knowing how to play Vanquish, seriously learn the fucking game, its all there for you to explore and it only takes a little time to do, I can't relate to the modern AAA game critic for these reasons, its sad.Originally Posted by Mauricio_Magus
When they don't make good tutorials, it's even worse, they do it because reviewers are stupid.
I remember how reviewers didn't know how to dodge in MGR or do ANYTHING in W101, always amusing.
You can't generalize like that. One of the best tutorials ever is Wario Land 4's first level.
I like disgaea's tutorial.
Ah, thought you were talking about the Atelier series or something.Persona for one...incredibly complex fuse system boiled down into "Fuse Personas to make new Personas!"...also I am still unsure as to how the sell materials system works......
I never had a problem with Persona's since it's about trial and error anyway.
I remember these, man VF4 had some insane good tutorials built into the game. Quick and easy.
indeed, I don't consider myself to be a master of gaming or do a lot of research before playing a game, but I TRY and end up understanding almost every game, it feels like a lot don't even try or give up if a game isn't simply as fuck.Originally Posted by CrackPebbles
Now THAT was ridiculous, same as people not knowing how to play vanquish, seriously learn the fucking game, its all there for you to explore and it only takes a little time to do, I can't relate to the modern AAA game critic for these reasons, its sad.
That's the reason tutorials are necessary, it's okay when you try to teach your game via game-play when it's simple like Meat Boy for example, but you can't do that when it's a complex game and when most people won't even try to learn or experiment.
I retract the "stupid" comment, I meant to say they don't even experiment because they just want to be over with them, and they end up not knowing how to DODGE(for the love of everything) in an action game.Not true...games with completely new system such as W101 really do need to explain how it works....havent played the game so I cant comment too much, but from what Ive seen is does look pretty complex
Also, a lot of gamers won't experiment, I've seen this many times.
Last edited by Mauricio_Magus; Yesterday at 06:07 AM.
On the other hand, it would have been nice if Resident Evil 6 included any tutorial at all, considering games don't come with instruction manuals anymore.
I don't know. For most games I think figuring this stuff out is half the fun.
I don't agree. Good game design should make the player learn without explaining everything, which is the case in most western games. Not that japanese games are better.While i'll agree intro level tutorials in western can sometimes drag (I like them a lot actually, it is important that someone lays out the rules and controls of the game).
It's a widespread problem in modern gaming IMO. Completely killed Mario & Luigi Dream Team for me.
I'd rather have the confusion-fest that Resonance of Fate is over a game that handholds you through half of the game.
Nothing will ever top DotA 2 tutorial.
"But i played this exact goddamn game for EIGHT YEARS!"
"I SAID DO THE TUTORIAL"
Sigh.
"But i played this exact goddamn game for EIGHT YEARS!"
"I SAID DO THE TUTORIAL"
Sigh.
I think God of War had a great tutorial...throw you in the shit immediately but pause the game once in a while to show you how certain attacks work.I don't agree. Good game design should make the player learn without explaining everything, which is the case in most western games. Not that japanese games are better.
It's a widespread problem in modern gaming IMO. Completely killed Mario & Luigi Dream Team for me.
I'd rather have the confusion-fest that Resonance of Fate is over a game that handholds you through half of the game.
*Reads post*While i'll agree intro level tutorials in western can sometimes drag (I like them a lot actually, it is important that someone lays out the rules and controls of the game), but holy crap at Japanese games.....now yes Im making some generalizations but from what Ive seen...Japanese games tend to do one of three things
A) Throw you in the deep end of menus and explains literally nothing (except of course that the attack button is to attack and the magic button is to use magic)
or
B) Copy pasting what would be in a hypothetical manual
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...wYgMa4Fg#t=543
or
C) Are FF13
Now I do not like being spoon fed, but damn it would be nice if Japanese devs gave some sort of explanation of deeper mechanics of the game or used the show dont tell form of teaching. I think we understand how attack and magic work, but if you are about to explain some deep crafting system do not say "Items can be combined to form other items. Find more crafting items on your journey to create powerful weapons and armor!" and leave it at that.....if I have to google something to explain a basic mechanic you did something wrong.
Son Im going to have to ask you to turn in your gun and badge.
There is no difference that I've noticed, I think it's just you perceiving these things. All tutorial levels in every game are equally shitty. But so far there's only been one that was so shitty I didn't even finish it and it was one of the Assassin's Creed games.
Nah dude, the tutorial level in Dark Souls begs to differ. Completely out of the way, yet straight to the point and completely skippable if you want to tough it out.
Introduces all of the mechanics of the game gradually, and lets you experiment at your leisure all within the first level.
Introduces all of the mechanics of the game gradually, and lets you experiment at your leisure all within the first level.
I don't remember any bad, dragging tutorials in the Japanese games I've played recently. LBW, SMTIV, FE:A, TW101, MH3U, DW8, BDFF, etc etc I think you are really over exaggerating OP.
No western ones are far worse. AC4 kept introducing crap in story missions that I had done 10+ times already. The Saints Row games also do this, and GTA 4 kept introducing basic elements about 35-40 missions into the game. Western games treat everyone like drooling morons who would consider managing to hold the controller without dropping it a true achievement.
OP post is a pretty big generalization, however I will say I tried getting through the tutorial for Nights in the Nightmare twice, failed both times, and never started the actual game as a result. Easily the longest tutorial I've ever seen in my life
How does the OP feel about optional tutorials? By which I mean stuff like how Vanquish's tutorial can be accessed from the main menu, or how MGR's can can be accessed any time(even during the campaign) via VR Missions, but neither is forced on you during the main campaign.
Was going to argue but then I remembered RE6.
I love the game but god damn is that tutorial shit. It's the main reason a good amount of people don't know how to play the damn game.
people still don't know you can slide into cover.
I love the game but god damn is that tutorial shit. It's the main reason a good amount of people don't know how to play the damn game.
people still don't know you can slide into cover.
There's really not much to explain about that system. You fuse two Persona together, the arcana and level determine the new Persona, and each Persona has rules as to what it can and cannot inherit. Real simple.Originally Posted by Chrono Helix
I think Elizabeth/Margaret are willing to explain it to you if you ask them.
Although they could possibly explain the base level concept, because that always throws people off.
I don't even get the selling materials part, because it flat out tells you "Sell materials to get new equipment unlocked in the shop."
There are lots of games with awful tutorials. Especially Japanese games that seem to go back and forth between the two extremes that the original poster mentioned. Persona 3 and 4 are not among those games however. :\
I do like optional tutorials myself, but Metal Gear Rising didn't have very good ones. :SOriginally Posted by Fimbulvetr
How does the OP feel about optional tutorials? By which I mean stuff like how Vanquish's tutorial can be accessed from the main menu, or how MGR's can can be accessed any time(even during the campaign) via VR Missions, but neither is forced on you during the main campaign.
I don't like it when tutorials break the fourth wall or when the characters tell you to press so and so buttons etc in their dialogue. Zelda is notorious for this. Mario is light hearted so I can understand because it's sometimes funny. But it's really out of place in Zelda.
Yeah, western games tend to treat you like an idiot. I feel Japanese games usually treat me like someone with a brain.Originally Posted by Derrick01
No western ones are far worse. AC4 kept introducing crap in story missions that I had done 10+ times already. The Saints Row games also do this, and GTA 4 kept introducing basic elements about 35-40 missions into the game. Western games treat everyone like drooling morons who would consider managing to hold the controller without dropping it a true achievement.
Games didn't have fuckloads of tutorials back in the day, and they don't need to now. You can just press some buttons and figure shit out. It's weird seeing my little brother play something and not even try each button out.
Err.. does they even give "tutorial" for it?Persona for one...incredibly complex fuse system boiled down into "Fuse Personas to make new Personas!"...also I am still unsure as to how the sell materials system works......
Igor just gave you analogy to how its working, and you must figure everything out.
for the most part i think western games are the worse offender.
but the main casual COD audience brings it on us i think.
had a acquaintance of mine trade in gtav after failing the initial robbery mission simply because he couldnt run away from it. he only plays battlefield and COD.
same person couldnt get through the sneaky part of tomb raider. tomb raider wasnt the best but the direction was solid i could always tell where i should go. especially in places like that.
i press every button when i pick up a controller. if its a deep title i press every button plus a direction.
i loathe being told onscreen text prompts of any kind.
tis why dark souls is my fave.
but the main casual COD audience brings it on us i think.
had a acquaintance of mine trade in gtav after failing the initial robbery mission simply because he couldnt run away from it. he only plays battlefield and COD.
same person couldnt get through the sneaky part of tomb raider. tomb raider wasnt the best but the direction was solid i could always tell where i should go. especially in places like that.
i press every button when i pick up a controller. if its a deep title i press every button plus a direction.
i loathe being told onscreen text prompts of any kind.
tis why dark souls is my fave.
Once again the problem is lack of choice. Give us basic tutorials in game, give us the Xs and Os, nitty gritty to access at our desire in the menu's.
I am a fan of emergent "tutorials" that teach you through just playing the game.
This is so true. I personally managed to play FFVII in 2010 with no tutorial and without looking at the manual. Mind you it did teach you stuff but in a subtle way tied into the dialogue of the characters. MGS is the same. Uncharted does it in a different way but it's still subtle.Games didn't have fuckloads of tutorials back in the day, and they don't need to now. You can just press some buttons and figure shit out. It's weird seeing my little brother play something and not even try each button out.
In fact now that I think about none of my favourite games have tutorials
Just seems like way too much of a generalization, considering you're lumping thousands of games together over a 30 year period of time. Some games have lengthy tutorials, some games have zero tutorial. And it's not really a uniquely Japanese thing either way.
I remember shortly after one of the Dissidia releases, someone from Square Enix explained the difference between the tutorial lengths. The Japanese version was several hours longer... He also mentioned that the Japanese "love" tutorials, so they didn't mind the length.
I just don't like the tutorials that pauses your game to tell you the obvious. I remember trying out GoW1 on ps+ and the tutorial would pause my game to tell me to press O when a O pops up on screen, but press x to cancel the box first.
Hmmm, I feel like the OP is referring specifically to jrpgs. I'm usually content to browse menus at my leisure rather than have to endure a "tutorial phase," but in any case, rpgs are generally more complex than most games, so a strong tutorial is pretty necessary. Or at least, some kind of strong tutorializing is necessary. Some rpgs kind of manage to build tutorial stuff into the initial story and the dialogue pretty well. I think games need to lose the whole shtick of displaying tutorial messages on-screen though. It takes you outside of the narrative too much. Games have only become more and more hand-holdy too. So many games feel like really controlled experiences to me these days. It's like the financial risk involved means the devs can't afford to make games too challenging for fear of bad reception.
Japanese games in general though? I always thought Zone of the Enders had a pretty no-nonsense tutorial. It pretty much set you up perfectly. Then again, ZOE isn't a particularly difficult game (has it's moments though).
Japanese games in general though? I always thought Zone of the Enders had a pretty no-nonsense tutorial. It pretty much set you up perfectly. Then again, ZOE isn't a particularly difficult game (has it's moments though).
Let's just say that most tutorials are bad, Japanese or otherwise.
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