I see no reason it wouldn't work, aren't they already shaping it to work on Steam controller?
Change controller from pointer to direct control ala Diablo 3 for the most part, with the DS4 touchpad to be able to use click controls where needed
Source for this? I'd like to read Valve's take on these experiments.I think valve tried to play it with their controller, they said something like: "you can play with a controller, you just can't win."
I don't think it's possible to play this game effectively without m/kb.
Dota is the most played game on steam, isn't it? It's a good insentive to use steam everyday, which is something valve wants. They wouldn't want to keep potential customers away by putting it on consoles, they'd prefer to make the pc audience even bigger.
Guys Im not saying partity with PC. Its akin to asking a counter strike or cod console player to compete with a semi skilled pc aimer . I'm saying there is a market for it if its within the console eco system. There is no question the mouse keyboard is way better. I personally hate console fps and refuse to play one for more than 10 minutes because I started competitive gaming in a clan in cs and I feel console controllers are rubbish for that. But 10 or 15 whatever million console cod players disagree with me ...
It would be nowhere near that easy. Changing the controls would change the game, and the game in turn would have to be balanced for those changes. Valve would have to create an entire subset of Dota 2 with it's own team and regular updates. That's how important the control is to the game.Originally Posted by Chuck Norris
I see no reason it wouldn't work, aren't they already shaping it to work on Steam controller?
Change controller from pointer to direct control ala Diablo 3 for the most part, with the DS4 touchpad to be able to use click controls where needed
Of course, Valve could do it. It would just be a lot of work, and they're not that big of a company.
Maybe voice command could be used to some degree
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthre...eam+controllerSource for this? I'd like to read Valve's take on these experiments.
So far, Valve has been able to successfully play (and win) games in every genre -- except for one.
“Somewhat ironically, our flagship at the moment that we spend a lot of time thinking about is Dota 2,” Coomer said. “You can definitely play Dota 2 with this controller, but we wouldn’t say to anybody who’s a serious DOTA player that this is an acceptable replacement for a mouse and keyboard for that game.”
“We have an internal joke. You can play Dota with the controller; you just can’t win,” Hope laughed. “Unless you’re playing against everybody else who has a controller, and then it’s a tractable problem.”
This. It's not a matter of buttons, it's the way these games are built and work.dota2/lol can't be ported to consoles, they would have to be completely reworked to fit console limitations. anyone who has played these games understands that.
The only way they could work on consoles would be having a controller plus kinect/PS move setup, and who the hell is going to buy accessories to play free to play games that you can get to work in pretty much any PC?
PS4 supports keyboard and mouse. Problem solved.
Dota is a gateway Steam drug for Valve. Maybe when more of their titles and crossbuy are on the next-gen platforms they could show a business interest, but...
There are like 30 devs on it and you need instant precision aiming cannot be done on a current console controller. The button mappings can be easily worked out, that's not the problem. You need to be able to click on multiple things all across the screen very accurately nearly instantly and hit hotkeys with very fast timing as well.
One could play the game, but good luck on matching last hits or doing anything remotely quickly.
I suppose some kind of smart casting system which targets heroes or nearest hostile creep could help alleviate some things, but it seems like it would make the entry barrier a lot higher.
There are like 30 devs on it and you need instant precision aiming cannot be done on a current console controller. The button mappings can be easily worked out, that's not the problem. You need to be able to click on multiple things all across the screen very accurately nearly instantly and hit hotkeys with very fast timing as well.
One could play the game, but good luck on matching last hits or doing anything remotely quickly.
D3 is PvE and you can just point your AoE/Cleave skills. That doesn't work in Dota.Originally Posted by Chuck Norris
I see no reason it wouldn't work, aren't they already shaping it to work on Steam controller?
Change controller from pointer to direct control ala Diablo 3 for the most part, with the DS4 touchpad to be able to use click controls where needed
I suppose some kind of smart casting system which targets heroes or nearest hostile creep could help alleviate some things, but it seems like it would make the entry barrier a lot higher.
Last edited by Hazaro; Yesterday at 12:04 PM.
Have you ever played it?Originally Posted by Chuck Norris
I see no reason it wouldn't work, aren't they already shaping it to work on Steam controller?
Change controller from pointer to direct control ala Diablo 3 for the most part, with the DS4 touchpad to be able to use click controls where needed
It could work well if there was some kind of console where the main controller had a touch screen. The minimap could be displayed there, the shop could be a touch interface, I think it could work really well.
Unfortunately I am not sure such a thing exists.
Unfortunately I am not sure such a thing exists.
It's here: http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/11/...troller?page=2Source for this? I'd like to read Valve's take on these experiments.
“We have an internal joke. You can play Dota with the controller; you just can’t win,” Hope laughed. “Unless you’re playing against everybody else who has a controller, and then it’s a tractable problem.”
Because the community would be even worse which is already hard to imagine.
err i do this all the time. click on enemy hero. click on ground next to your own hero once creeps aggro on you. (assuming you have a hotkey for your hero which is one extra button if you havent got your hero selected). its not that hard. maybe i just use fewer buttons naturally than most dota players. And if anything using such shortcuts makes things simpler for me rather than using 10 buttons for something that can be achieved with 2 presses and quick mouse movement.Not good enough. You must be able to look at different areas of the map independent of your hero and perhaps check enemy heroes' items. Example of application is to take creep aggro with axe. Simply att click on an enemy hero on any spot on the map and immediately hit stops. Creeps will aggro to you.
Heres a list of buttons needed:
Select your hero - 1
Select all units, only summoned units - 2 (possibly more to include control groups)
Skills - 5
Items - 6
Attack, Move, Stop - 3 (there are others but not really used)
Scoreboard etc - minimum 2 (1 to bring up or close, another to cycle through)
Courier (select, take item, return item, speed boost, deliver item, go to secret shop) - 6 (minimum 5)
Queueing actions - 1
Auto buy - 1
1 analog stick for moving your vision around, another to move your selector around? If not you need dedicated buttons for shop, glyph, buy queue up
Conclusion: at least 26 buttons and 2 sticks
Activating the abilities may be one thing. Aiming them properly would be really awkward and slow on a gamepad.There aren't more buttons on the keyboard i dont think...
Plus there are even more for ps4 if they utilize the touchpad like they did in Warframe. Thats all your abilities right on the touchpad alone.
Edit: in fairness ive never played dota in my life so idk.
Go watch a replay from a relatively good player (I'm not even talking Pro player) from the player point of view and you'll understand quite quick why it just can't work with the same efficiency.Originally Posted by Chuck Norris
I see no reason it wouldn't work, aren't they already shaping it to work on Steam controller?
Change controller from pointer to direct control ala Diablo 3 for the most part, with the DS4 touchpad to be able to use click controls where needed
The Keyboard is one thing, and key bindings might be able to get emulated, but the swiftness and precision that the mouse allows ... NO WAY !
Why do all the items and skills have to be separate buttons? That's insane. You'd hold down a button for each of them and then select them from a radial. All the hero and courier management would have to be simplified, but those could easily be a list of commands telling them what to do. And need we forget, Halo Wars had an All Units button.Not good enough. You must be able to look at different areas of the map independent of your hero and perhaps check enemy heroes' items. Example of application is to take creep aggro with axe. Simply att click on an enemy hero on any spot on the map and immediately hit stops. Creeps will aggro to you.
Heres a list of buttons needed:
Select your hero - 1
Select all units, only summoned units - 2 (possibly more to include control groups)
Skills - 5
Items - 6
Attack, Move, Stop - 3 (there are others but not really used)
Scoreboard etc - minimum 2 (1 to bring up or close, another to cycle through)
Courier (select, take item, return item, speed boost, deliver item, go to secret shop) - 6 (minimum 5)
Queueing actions - 1
Auto buy - 1
1 analog stick for moving your vision around, another to move your selector around? If not you need dedicated buttons for shop, glyph, buy queue up
Conclusion: at least 26 buttons and 2 sticks
You're thinking how to map mouse friendly functions over to buttons, which is always going to be unwieldy. Instead, it would be perfectly reasonable and doable to make a few console specific UI tweaks and BAM, Console DOTA.
That would be one esoteric use of Remote Play!It could work well if there was some kind of console where the main controller had a touch screen. The minimap could be displayed there, the shop could be a touch interface, I think it could work really well.
Unfortunately I am not sure such a thing exists.
Could the touchpad of DS4 not be enough?
Ahaha I would love to see someone with a controller hex a spirit breaker that just popped out of the bushes next to them. hell, I would love to see someone with a controller consistently place a ward properly without stopping. I would rather play with bots on my team than people with controllers. And yeah, you have 4 skills, but I use half of the keys on the keyboard and like 6 buttons on the mouse.
Dota on a controller is just a third person action game with a bad camera.
Dota on a controller is just a third person action game with a bad camera.
Last edited by CaptainAhab; Yesterday at 12:07 PM.
IGN has an article about the steam controller, and even they say that it is the only game they can't get to work with it. They have the saying that "you can play a game but you can never win" versus mouse and keyboard
And once again to emphasize. Im not saying people will be able to pull off everything they can with a mouse/kb. Im just saying a slightly simplified version for console gamers would be a big opportunity.
And some people have pointed out valve uses it as a gateway for steam ... well they have already lost the pc battle to lol on this end. (which is a shame imo .... but that apart) .... but this could help them push dota's popularity and battle the lol crowd.
And some people have pointed out valve uses it as a gateway for steam ... well they have already lost the pc battle to lol on this end. (which is a shame imo .... but that apart) .... but this could help them push dota's popularity and battle the lol crowd.
In DotA I may have to do the following in <1 second:
(possibly) Select my hero,
move myself into position,
activate a skill,
select an activate item,
move the cursor over another unit (friendly),
move the cursor over another unit (enemy),
activate skill.
I know I can do this on a keyboard with a mouse. Controller though? Not so confident.
I've always wondered why more games don't use bumpers and triggers like shift buttons, which would basically add (4 to 6) x 2 more buttons that are easily accessible. That would get rid of a lot issues with lack of hotkey slots and it's no harder to learn/use than knowing ctrl+c is copy on a computer. Certainly not any harder than having two press two buttons in a fighting game or any of the thousands of games that let you press two buttons at once.
A console version of DOTA wouldn't be cross platform, so everyone would be using the controller setup. So no issue there.IGN has an article about the steam controller, and even they say that it is the only game they can't get to work with it. They have the saying that "you can play a game but you can never win" versus mouse and keyboard
the mouse precision and accuracy cant be replicated . but a console only variant can work imo ... there is a reason devs dont do cross play with console and pc fpses. pc fps players would destroy console equivalents.Go watch a replay from a relatively good player (I'm not even talking Pro player) from the player point of view and you'll understand quite quick why it just can't work with the same efficiency.
The Keyboard is one thing, and key bindings might be able to get emulated, but the swiftness and precision that the mouse allows ... NO WAY !
Regarding the steam controller DOTA2 and solutions - “Somewhat ironically, our flagship at the moment that we spend a lot of time thinking about is Dota 2,” Coomer said. “You can definitely play Dota 2 with this controller, but we wouldn’t say to anybody who’s a serious Dota player that this is an acceptable replacement for a mouse and keyboard for that game.”Originally Posted by Chuck Norris
I see no reason it wouldn't work, aren't they already shaping it to work on Steam controller?
Change controller from pointer to direct control ala Diablo 3 for the most part, with the DS4 touchpad to be able to use click controls where needed
“We have an internal joke. You can play Dota with the controller; you just can’t win,” Hope laughed. “Unless you’re playing against everybody else who has a controller, and then it’s a tractable problem.”
“There are definitely games that, although playable, aren’t good enough for the existing players to spend much time playing them with this controller,” Coomer explained. “There aren’t very many games like that on Steam, though. So when we say we’ve managed to accommodate the whole catalog, there are some places where, at the highest level, that’s not complete, because of things like Dota. But the entire catalog, we still think we can call it playable. There just aren’t that many in that category.” Hope said Valve has also “been doing a lot of experiments” regarding fighting games and will have more to reveal soon.
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2013/11/0...troller?page=2
They'd have to make it console vs console only, remove single target global ability heroes, remove control group dependent heroes like meepo, limit the store... it'd be some grotesque version of the original game where professional competive play would be non existent
Go watch any FPS competition played on a PC vs played with a controler. Same thing. And still FPS market is huge on consoles and lots of people are having fun with it. Why not do the same for Dota or League?Go watch a replay from a relatively good player (I'm not even talking Pro player) from the player point of view and you'll understand quite quick why it just can't work with the same efficiency.
The Keyboard is one thing, and key bindings might be able to get emulated, but the swiftness and precision that the mouse allows ... NO WAY !
No one is saying it would be comparable on a skill level if they went head to head, lots of things would need to be simplified but it would still be fun and I bet there would be a huge market for it.
The quote is about the Steam controller though, which is entirely designed around touchpads. Who knows how a traditional controller built around analog sticks would fare.A console version of DOTA wouldn't be cross platform, so everyone would be using the controller setup. So no issue there.
I'd argue that isn't the case either. I play TF2 solely with a controller, and I regularly top out non-Valve server pub games against good competition. I can't play sniper (so CoD level stuff where headshots are a priority isn't in the cards), but I can do every other class with ease.the mouse precision and accuracy cant be replicated . but a console only variant can work imo ... there is a reason devs dont do cross play with console and pc fpses. pc fps players would destroy console equivalents.
I'm always amazed when people just automatically assume that KB/M players will win. Just gotta up the sensitivity on the sticks and put hundreds of hours in and you can get the job done.
The biggest obstacle would be the heroes that have multiple units to control. I can't see those working with a controller, but if you play Guardians of Middle Earth you can see how League would work with a controller. Can't say the same for Dota 2. It just demands too much precision.
and the metagame would change. mercurial meepo werent even in the game a year back (or was it 2 years back ... god its been ages ive been playing this game ive lost track) .... the game was still competitive back then ... ignoring very specific heros like chen or items like helm ... which even half the people who get it get it to convert it into satanic ... microsing is specific to certain heros. its not like dota cant exist without chen/enchantress/meepo ... look at dota 2 it got heros in one by one. God that stuff doesnt even have terrorblade yet ... (and yes i know hes a pub stomper unless played by some super rice farmer with a baby sit lane but his lines are awesome ;) )Originally Posted by Dodecagon
They'd have to make it console vs console only, remove single target global ability heroes, remove control group dependent heroes like meepo, limit the store... it'd be some grotesque version of the original game where professional competive play would be non existent
Even if we were to ignore the buttons, the fact that these games are updated and tweaked constantly means that it would be time-consuming and costly to maintain on the consoles.
Add in the fact that, unlike most Western AAA games, the largest markets for these games are not in the NA/Western Europe means that the console market for it isn't all that huge.
Add in the fact that, unlike most Western AAA games, the largest markets for these games are not in the NA/Western Europe means that the console market for it isn't all that huge.
it would have to be watered down dota. and before anyone makes the joke, yes, league of legends is a watered down dota with no real pets but would still be far too demanding with respect to fast and precise movement.
i can't really see it happening with the games as they are on pc. it would have to be a game specifically tailored towards the controller, and i feel like it would lose a bit of the soul that makes dota and lol fun
i can't really see it happening with the games as they are on pc. it would have to be a game specifically tailored towards the controller, and i feel like it would lose a bit of the soul that makes dota and lol fun
i probably put around 1000 hours into Guardians on PS3...I think Guardian of Middle Earth was just that, a console dota clone. It bombed hard.
Problem was poor advertising and very shitty net code. It bombed the same on PC as well. For first 2-3 months it was really hard to get into games or complete them due to net code.
However, there is still active community and I can find game at any time of the day. When net code works fine (these days it is OK), it is horribly addicting game that can be played for century.
Interface/controls were very intuitive, i would say even perfect. For instance I wish Diablo III copied its controls as I found their pretty clunky.
It uses all of the DS3 possible controls so there is quite large range of choices available. So basically 12 "keys" + 2 sticks (another 4 + mouse?). L1, R1, R2 and L1+R1 triggers are used as shift keys to add more options for 8 front buttons. Left stick is for movement, Right stick is for aiming.
And it is all very, very intuitive and easy to grasp. As I said before, much better than Diablo controls on DS3 and again, very intuitive.
So even comparing it to mouse+kb, you end up having a lot of controls on DS3. I cant see why wouldnt it play perfectly if adjusted properly.
What? No. They play nothing alike.The biggest obstacle would be the heroes that have multiple units to control. I can't see those working with a controller, but if you play Guardians of Middle Earth you can see how League would work with a controller. Can't say the same for Dota 2. It just demands too much precision.
+ League also have champions with secondary units to control (Shaco, Mordekaiser, Yorick, Annie and Leblanc).
The core of Guardians of Middle Earth is a good, accessible MOBA. Shame that the network is shit, and the way they handle items is terrible. Actually controlling and upgrading your hero works well for something more casual friendly than dota 2. Someone else should take that, and make an actual game worth playing out of it.
I wouldn't even play Dota with a wireless mouse.
Wouldn't the Diablo 3 controlscheme work?
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