Alright lets discuss real world applications..
Lets say I'm a storm spirit. When I'm ganking, I need to: Zip over to the enemy hero, queue up orchid on him (which can be used during zip, reducing time wasted on casting), attack once, pull him, move attack once, drop down remnant, move attack once, trigger the remnant if he doesn't auto attack you, then possibly zip around.
On the PC, you can manage to do all this before orchid malevolence runs out.
On the console, you have to cycle to zip, move cursor to location, select use skill, cycle to orchid, select enemy hero (possibly lock on so you don't have to do this again), use orchid, attack once to slow, cycle through skills to pull, use skill, attack, move, cycle to remnant, use skill, attack , blow up remnant, attack, cycle to zip, move cursor to location, use skill etc etc...
That's a shit load of cycling. And what if he needs to do more? There's a stunner there, so storm wants to use his sheepstick on the stunner while he barrages on the hero he wants to kill. He ran out of mana, so he needs to cycle to wand maybe? He wants to use bkb, he wants to use shiva's, he wants to suicide with bloodstone etc etc. So many things to do, so many cycles in 1 fight.
Dota is most cool when your reaction time manages to save a teammate or turn the battle in your favour. Can your shadow demon disrupt your team's carry when he suddenly gets ganked and theres a stun projectile flying towards him? Can your rubick move out of the way of a tidehunter ravage, blink next to him after the spikes in the middle have dropped, lift him, use spell steal, then ravage the enemy team using a controller?
If not, it will never work.
Hahaha oh wow :) Remember SC2 Kinect?Originally Posted by Chuck Norris
Maybe voice command could be used to some degree
It'd be way more heroes and items thrown out, look back as far as even pre TI1, no Ancient Apparition, Natures Prophet, boots of travel etc... It'd be some dumbed down game with autoa targetingand the metagame would change. mercurial meepo werent even in the game a year back (or was it 2 years back ... god its been ages ive been playing this game ive lost track) .... the game was still competitive back then ... ignoring very specific heros like chen or items like helm ... which even half the people who get it get it to convert it into satanic ... microsing is specific to certain heros. its not like dota cant exist without chen/enchantress/meepo ... look at dota 2 it got heros in one by one. God that stuff doesnt even have terrorblade yet ... (and yes i know hes a pub stomper unless played by some super rice farmer with a baby sit lane but his lines are awesome ;) )
Yeah.. No. It's not possible with any one of them. League requires as much precision as Dota.The biggest obstacle would be the heroes that have multiple units to control. I can't see those working with a controller, but if you play Guardians of Middle Earth you can see how League would work with a controller. Can't say the same for Dota 2. It just demands too much precision.
You just need to design the game base on controller.
Some feature need to strip down like active item, multiple unit selection, map navigation (might work with DS4 touch pad) etc.
Keep the main hook of the genre.
Team objective base gameplay, RPG elements, spectator friendly, micro and macro strategic influence.
Add some controller advantages like better action control, dodge, counter, easy combo, think power stone style dota.
it's a potential goldmine no one try to tap in.
Nintendo allstar, Sony allstar, Capcom allstar, someone need to start making them.
I literally didn't understand 80% of that. Given how huge DOTA is I feel bad I don't know more. That said I don't have the cash to build a gaming PC.Alright lets discuss real world applications.
Lets say I'm a storm spirit. When I'm ganking, I need to: Zip over to the enemy hero, queue up orchid on him (which can be used during zip, reducing time wasted on casting), attack once, pull him, move attack once, drop down remnant, move attack once, trigger the remnant if he doesn't auto attack you, then possibly zip around.
On the PC, you can manage to do all this before orchid malevolence runs out.
On the console, you have to cycle to zip, move cursor to location, select use skill, cycle to orchid, select enemy hero (possibly lock on so you don't have to do this again), use orchid, attack once to slow, cycle through skills to pull, use skill, attack, move, cycle to remnant, use skill, attack , blow up remnant, attack, cycle to zip, move cursor to location, use skill etc etc...
That's a shit load of cycling. And what if he needs to do more? There's a stunner there, so storm wants to use his sheepstick on the stunner while he barrages on the hero he wants to kill. He ran out of mana, so he needs to cycle to wand maybe? He wants to use bkb, he wants to use shiva's, he wants to suicide with bloodstone etc etc. So many things to do, so many cycles in 1 fight.
Dota is most cool when your reaction time manages to save a teammate or turn the battle in your favour. Can your shadow demon disrupt your team's carry when he suddenly gets ganked and theres a stun projectile flying towards him? Can your rubick move out of the way of a tidehunter ravage, blink next to him after the spikes in the middle have dropped, lift him, use spell steal, then ravage the enemy team using a controller?
If not, it will never work.
On a joypad/gamepad like controller, you'd have auto aim.
Manually position a pointer on the screen and clicking 200+ times per minute <- Major gameplay element.
you dont need a gaming pc for dota 2 and the original dota which till the last update used to be ahead of dota 2 is a warcraft 3 mod = dino pcs will run it.Originally Posted by OriginalThinking
I literally didn't understand 80% of that. Given how huge DOTA is I feel bad I don't know more. That said I don't have the cash to build a gaming PC.
I believe Super Monday Night Combat tried. Anyone played that? It doesn't look like the game relays enough information to you regarding what is happening around the map, or emphasize cooperation, which i think is the biggest thing MOBA's have going for them.
here are 2 youtube videos of famous moments in Dota 2 historyOriginally Posted by OriginalThinking
I literally didn't understand 80% of that. Given how huge DOTA is I feel bad I don't know more. That said I don't have the cash to build a gaming PC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLqz3JcAkuI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqY4_rj1XN4
Now keep in mind these are professional players who do this for a living, in a competition environment. This is what's possible on a KB/M.
Bit of a Na'Vi fanboy ay ;)here are 2 youtube videos of famous moments in Dota 2 history
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLqz3JcAkuI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqY4_rj1XN4
Now keep in mind these are professional players who do this for a living, in a competition environment. This is what's possible on a KB/M.
Those were pretty cool
If Valve could get DotA working with a controller, they'd love to. It just isn't feasible. Yes they could do a simplified version for consoles but that'd likely confuse/split the playerbase and damage the brand. They don't want that.
Because the game would have to be played by all players using only K+M. Anyone using a controller would be ridiculously disadvantaged. And people require two extra peripherals just to play a game massively reduces the playerbase already.I've been wondering this too. Why not allow for keyboard support and bring MOBAs onto consoles that way?
You just can't play these games properly with a gamepad, even if you tried to boil it down. It would effectively change how the whole game works and wouldn't be DOTA anymore.
Speed and accuracy is pretty much essential to this game; checking other regions of the map in seconds, point target attacks, navigating the shop menu super fast whilst in lane etc etc. People asking why so many dedicated keys are needed for certain things, again, it's just faster. Any of the micromanagement of heroes like Meepo, Engima with his Eidolons, Beast Master with the hawk for scouting out vision, micro-ing the courier to specific locations and to quickly do tasks like 'bottle-crowing'.
Then you have other tasks like pinging on the map to your team, drawing on the map for quick visual tactics (ganking routes or explaining to your team where you are kiting the enemy so they cut them off).
The list just goes on and on. A lot of the meta game would be screwed. Doing any of this on a gamepad IS possible if you really simplified it, but it would take so long to do the simplest of things there would be no point - could you imagine how tedious something relatively straightforward like creep stacking and pulling though to another camp would be? A lot of it is down to timing and precision. I mean, people complain already that it's too long or passive experience on PC (1 game can last 50 minutes easily), adding gamepad input would only do to increase this because everyone is trying to manage their character/abilites/items/courier/shop at an achingly slow pace.
and here is heaton with his one and only eco ace against a full buy 4khere are 2 youtube videos of famous moments in Dota 2 history
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLqz3JcAkuI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqY4_rj1XN4
Now keep in mind these are professional players who do this for a living, in a competition environment. This is what's possible on a KB/M.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Buamp_B7A04
picking seminal tournament moments with world level players isn't a good comparision of what can be expected of regular players :)
/thread
i mentioned chen in the op ... hes basically out. And a dota without chen or enchantress is still managable ... anyway we can all agree some compromises would have to be made ... the question is is dota lita on a console worth it? No one is promising the same skill and intensity as a pc. I think dota lite on consoles is better than nothing ...I'm playing Chen. How do I use a controller to control five units, each with their own skills that require different positioning? You can't. Add item management and map awareness to that. It's just not possible.
If Valve could get DotA working with a controller, they'd love to. It just isn't feasible. Yes they could do a simplified version for consoles but that'd likely confuse/split the playerbase and damage the brand. They don't want that.
Because the game would have to be played by all players using only K+M. Anyone using a controller would be ridiculously disadvantaged. And people require two extra peripherals just to play a game massively reduces the playerbase already.
So many keys are used in DOTA, then there's the hero's who control other units as well as the controlled units abilities.
Then the obvious fact a mouse would be needed to accurately target, the game is just too fast for traditional controllers.
Either way, major compromises would have to be made, at that point people may as well just play it on PC since its PC requirements are low. I can't see it catching on due to being a watered down version either.
Just one item: Imagine Blink Dagger. Requiring a controller would be the biggest nerf you could do to this item.
Simple actions such as pinging the map would be a fucking nightmare.
console players could adapt. unless youre initiating when you have some time to position the cursor ... for quick escapes double taps of the blink button (say x for inherent abilities like magina, qop and down curson for item based ones) .... anyway no i totally agree compromises will have to be made ... the question is will the watering down be so extreme that even if only console vs console players that the game will totally lose its balance and fun?Originally Posted by fresquito
Decent Dota player...
Just one item: Imagine Blink Dagger. Requiring a controller would be the biggest nerf you could do to this item.
Simple actions such as pinging the map would be a fucking nightmare.
against a kb/m player ... im assuming ...Originally Posted by fluffydelusions
Didn't valve say you could play it but you'd lose lol
EDIT: Cause they better not be referring to that god awful ai which they try to shove on new players. the best way to learn dota is to suck and suck and suck at it till you finally stop sucking imo :)
Yeah at least dota community is better than league for new players in that regard. Most will help you.against a kb/m player ... im assuming ...
EDIT: Cause they better not be referring to that god awful ai which they try to shove on new players. the best way to learn dota is to suck and suck and suck at it till you finally stop sucking imo :)
Someone should come up with an interesting MOBA for consoles. But DOTA is totally out of the question. Simple actions such as blinking, checking the map for runes, etc are essential to the game, not just accesories that can be thrown away. Then you have things such as orb-walking, that are the bread and butter of mid-tier levels. Sure you can have a totally dumbed and watered down DOTA, but then it's not DOTA anymore.
I laughed. And then I cried.maybe a first party console studio can get to working on a dotalike which is built from the ground up around the limitations of the controller, which eschews precision and dexterity requirements and subsequently becomes bigger than any previous dotalike, redefining the genre and ushering in a decade of increasingly mechanically neutered darkness.
Consolisation was the worst thing to happen to the FPS genre. It'd be a shame if the same thing happened to the RTS and MOBA genres.
Hhahaha oh god yeah, orbwalking would be downright impossible.Originally Posted by fresquito
The thing is. DOTA has the craziest dificulty curve I've ever found in a game... with a KB/M.
Someone should come up with an interesting MOBA for consoles. But DOTA is totally out of the question. Simple actions such as blinking, checking the map for runes, etc are essential to the game, not just accesories that can be thrown away. Then you have things such as orb-walking, that are the bread and butter of mid-tier levels. Sure you can have a totally dumbed and watered down DOTA, but then it's not DOTA anymore.
It happened to me in a league game where it bugged and I couldn't unlock it for some reason. Limits you so much.
Add to that the need to be able to accurately and very quickly use normal attacks / abilities on player and minions (not to mention all the AoE abilities you can land anywhere) in a split second and you are looking at a very very watered down MOBA.
It's not the amount of buttons that's the issue at all. It's what a mouse allows you to do.
In short , to achieve Dota in console , it has to be not dota-like already .
This. Control-wise Guardians of Middle Earth is very well thought out, and plays surprisingly great with a controller. It's mainly the netcode (no dedicated servers), the matchmaking, and maybe the price structure that let the game down.The core of Guardians of Middle Earth is a good, accessible MOBA. Shame that the network is shit, and the way they handle items is terrible. Actually controlling and upgrading your hero works well for something more casual friendly than dota 2. Someone else should take that, and make an actual game worth playing out of it.
The amount of buttons highlighted on there could be replicated with a controller. Not to mention you wouldn't need the buttons like stop when you use a control.
VS
I feel like posts like this lack any vision as well. You don't have to make a 1:1 port of dota or LoL. Look at diablo 3, it requires just as much precision and also requires a lot of buttons but they made it work. Obviously you would have to make some changes but that doesn't make it impossible.
I also feel like this is one situation where the wii U controller would be perfect to overcome a lot of these problems.
That's kinda how i feel about MOBA's (or whatever they're called) in relation to RTS's.maybe a first party console studio can get to working on a dotalike which is built from the ground up around the limitations of the controller, which eschews precision and dexterity requirements and subsequently becomes bigger than any previous dotalike, redefining the genre and ushering in a decade of increasingly mechanically neutered darkness.
Too many skills rely on point and click, the game would have to be completely rebalanced and skills reworked so that they are fun to use with a controller.
At this point it would be a different game.
There are 6 Buttons missing on that Chart (on the mouse.Originally Posted by AdventureRacing
The amount of buttons highlighted on there could be replicated with a controller. Not to mention you wouldn't need the buttons like stop when you use a control.
I feel like posts like this lack any vision as well. You don't have to make a 1:1 port of dota or LoL. Look at diablo 3, it requires just as much precision and also requires a lot of buttons but they made it work. Obviously you would have to make some changes but that doesn't make it impossible.
I also feel like this is one situation where the wii U controller would be perfect to overcome a lot of these problems.
That's kinda how i feel about MOBA's (or whatever they're called) in relation to RTS's.
Diablo only has positional skills and was designed to work with a controller. Dota on the other hand relies on point and click for a majority of it's skills, there are heroes (and items) that require you to manage multiple units ect.
It just wouldn't be any fun to play on a controller, as well as slow as hell.
| Thread Tools | |