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ScOULaris
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:00 PM)
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So I came across this gem this morning at EventHubs:

Train wreck of a SSF4 AE v2012 match: Gandhi faces FSP at DreamHack Winter 2013

Originally Posted by EventHubs

A train wreck is described as "a chaotic or disastrous situation that holds a peculiar fascination for observers."

Such a Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition v2012 match went down this last weekend at DreamHack Winter 2013, between Gandhi (Ryu, bottom player shown) vs. FSP (Rufus, top player shown) in the group play stage.

So much was off in this match that it's hard to think where to begin describing it, but there is a good lesson here though.

Even when your opponent goes random and really starts to do things completely off base, you can see that it's important to keep your composure, or bad results can happen. This match is living proof, hit the jump to see it.

Street Fighter fans will likely get a laugh out of that video just like I did when I watched it, but people who don't understand the game on a deeper level probably won't see anything odd about it. For the uninitiated, what we are seeing in that video is a "scrub-tier" player (someone with very limited skill or knowledge of the game) beating out a technically much better player at a tournament. This is something of a rarity in high level gaming competition, seeing as how the skill ceiling and depth of certain competitive genres (fighting games, RTS, MOBA, FPS... etc.) tends to make it impossible for lower-caliber players to hold their own in competitions such as this.

The reason that the better player (FSP) loses in this matchup is because he's simply not used to playing against someone so... random, for lack of a better term. Since Gandhi is clearly a poor player with almost zero knowledge of the game's finer mechanics or strategies, he's pretty much throwing out random stuff in semi-predictable patterns. It's strange that FSP wasn't able to simply adapt and punish all of Gandhi's poorly timed jump-ins and uppercuts, but he's clearly just not used to playing someone so unskilled at the game. As the commentators say in the video, FSP simply fails to properly adapt to this unfamiliar style of play and ends up losing the set.

______________

After enjoying this video immensely, I got to wondering if this sort of thing has happened in other competitive games on a tournament level. Obviously it's more likely to occur in fighting games than other genres, given the quick nature of sets during pool play, but I'd be really interested to see similar situations in other types of games. If you know of any other videos of this kind of scrubtacular upset, please share them in this thread.
sixteen-bit
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:00 PM)
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The Rufus player in that video is a GAFfer :x
ScOULaris
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(12-04-2013, 02:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by sixteen-bit

The Rufus player in that video is a GAFfer :x

Hah, really? Maybe he'll comment in this thread.
phaonaut
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by ScOULaris

Hah, really? Maybe he'll comment in this thread.

He commented plenty in the FGW thread.
Alienous
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:04 PM)
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I can't see how that guy is "bad".

Honestly.

Addendum:
When it comes to fighting games, mind games play a huge part. You need to be able to execute, under pressure. That's the competitive aspect.
Last edited by Alienous; 12-04-2013 at 02:06 PM.
ViewtifulJC
shots fired? we run!
(12-04-2013, 02:05 PM)
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Not a good look for GAF
Wynnebeck
Banned
(12-04-2013, 02:05 PM)
Who is the scrub? The inexperienced player or the "professional" who lost to him?
rmanthorp
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:06 PM)
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I don't think the guy mashing is anything write home about it - It's the lack of adaptation from FSP that is the story here and what a boring story it is. Guy who is really bad presses buttons and beats guy is okay. IT's not really anything.
hey_it's_that_dog
Banned
(12-04-2013, 02:06 PM)
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I'm not familiar with the FG community so maybe this is well-worn territory, but if you lose to a scrub, doesn't that imply that you are, in fact, a scrub as well? What does it matter if you're "technically" more skilled if you can't overcome the random tactics of someone who knows nothing?

edit: damn it Wynnebeck
OceanBlue
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(12-04-2013, 02:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wynnebeck

Who is the scrub? The inexperienced player or the "professional" who lost to him?

Professional? Where did that come from?
Jazz-ism
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(12-04-2013, 02:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wynnebeck

Who is the scrub? The inexperienced player or the "professional" who lost to him?

they are both scrubs
Skilletor
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:06 PM)
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LOL. That looked like every shitty Ryu online. Wow.

FSP looked totally shook. He wasn't punishing really obvious shit (c.hk, sweep it!). Man.

hahahahaha
Alucrid
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(12-04-2013, 02:07 PM)
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No wonder why no one cares about Europe in the fcg
Jamie OD
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(12-04-2013, 02:08 PM)
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Reminds me of a saying about fencing and chess. The worst opponent a master can go against is an absolute newbie because he has not idea what the new guy is going to do.
KHlover
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:09 PM)
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Apparently there is a really bad SSBB tournament final from 2008...no idea where to find it, though...
Tashi
343i Community Coordinator
(12-04-2013, 02:09 PM)
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I find that phenomenon to be very intriguing. You expect players at the same high level to do certain things. That leaves you to disregard the potential for things that only lesser skilled players would do.
Alienous
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(12-04-2013, 02:10 PM)
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Actually, this is some master-level shit.

Gandhi uses his opponents negative energy, bad execution, and misguided momentum to make them trip themselves up. Fuck playing to your strengths, play to your opponent's weakness.

Sure it doesn't look skillful. But the real duel is happening in FSP's mind, and he is getting the shit kicked out of him.
OminoMichelin
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(12-04-2013, 02:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jamie OD

Reminds me of a saying about fencing and chess. The worst opponent a master can go against is an absolute newbie because he has not idea what the new guy is going to do.

Meh idk about that. Anytime i play chess I lose pretty quickly against opponents who use very basic tactics, simply because I never learnt any myself.

And as someone said, this speaks more about the ineptitute of the master than anything else. It denotes a lack of flexibility
Last edited by OminoMichelin; 12-04-2013 at 02:14 PM.
Wynnebeck
Banned
(12-04-2013, 02:12 PM)

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

Professional? Where did that come from?

Meaning the person experienced in the game and is well known. I'm not calling FSP bad, but I find it unfair to call Gandhi a scrub for being an inexperienced player. A scrub is someone who refuses to get better because their head is so far up their ass they can't take constructive criticism. Not the case here.
Regiruler
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(12-04-2013, 02:13 PM)
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I had to double-check I wasn't on Pojo after I read the thread title.

OT: it's entirely his fault for losing. You should always expect the unexpected.
MavFan619
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:13 PM)
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That is my match of the year. Don't know of any other examples, all I need is Ghandi.
Duxxy3
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(12-04-2013, 02:13 PM)
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Never heard of either of them, so I wouldn't say that either is a "bad" player. Just a winner and a loser.

edit: didn't even shake his hand - asshole
Last edited by Duxxy3; 12-04-2013 at 02:16 PM.
Skilletor
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tashi

I find that phenomenon to be very intriguing. You expect players at the same high level to do certain things. That leaves you to disregard the potential for things that only lesser skilled players would do.

This is true. Like games with "rules" are really hard to play against people who don't know what they're doing. Take VF or DoA for example.

Strikes ALWAYS beat throws. Always, always always. People who don't know what they're doing don't typically have knowledge of things like frame data, so they're more often going to attack from situations where they're disadvantaged or "shouldn't" attack, which leads to a lot of setups that would work against a more knowledgeable player not working.

Playing VF or DoA against a less skilled player usually results in just dumbing your game down entirely and not trying to set anything up, since you'll probably just get hit out of it.

I don't know that that's the case with this match, though. FSP was not punishing simple stuff. He was getting hit by obvious reverals (the guy looked like he would start mashing as soon as he was in a block string), this guy had no execution of which to speak. He threw out random sweeps, and I don't think FSP punished them (might not have punished any). He did random ultras, and FSP didn't capitalize. There were a lot of opportunities for the "more skilled player" to overcome here, but that didn't happen at all.
hey_it's_that_dog
Banned
(12-04-2013, 02:14 PM)
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I feel like defining skill in a fighting game as a function of knowledge is missing out on some crucial elements, like intuition and execution. Very experienced players are able to execute based on their knowledge with very little conscious thought, but less experienced players who wish to play skillfully and have the knowledge but not the practice will spend too much time thinking. I think the "bad" player's mindlessness is an advantage in this match-up because his opponent is forced to think too much to understand his nonsensical behavior.
Four Wude
Junior Member
(12-04-2013, 02:14 PM)
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To be fair, nothing that Gandhi did in that video was random. He simply did the same thing over and over again in a very readable pattern. He shouldn't have been allowed to jump and sweep as often as he did, with the majority of sweeps going completely unpunished.
Alucrid
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:14 PM)
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Where the standing hard punches at?
zainetor
Banned
(12-04-2013, 02:15 PM)
He was playing with an online mindset. Sometimes you re too afraid of punishing things online, because of the lag, so you just block them.
smr00
Banned
(12-04-2013, 02:15 PM)

Originally Posted by Regiruler

I had to double-check I wasn't on Pojo after I read the thread title.

OT: it's entirely his fault for losing. You should always expect the unexpected.

This thread reminds me of hardcore poker players i run into at tournaments and stuff here. They get pissed off because people aren't playing the way they should and it always blows my mind that people have this notion that there is a correct way to play poker or even video games. You play it the way you want to play it. Clearly someone is doing something right if they beat someone who is an expert at a game
Sojiro
Junior Member
(12-04-2013, 02:16 PM)
Are newer players actually referred to "scrubs", or is that only pro players looking down on them sort of thing. He was not looking very happy though lol.
BronsonLee
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:16 PM)
DSP did it for years!
FindMyFarms
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:16 PM)
Both these players are bad. the rufus player was even worse. To stop ryu from jumping in, all rufus literally has to do is press down and a button (mp.) Especially at the angles that ryu was jumpin in. Add in how predictable the ryu player was, and yeah, the rufus player deserved to lose every second of that.

Originally Posted by hey_it's_that_dog

I feel like defining skill in a fighting game as a function of knowledge is missing out on some crucial elements, like intuition and execution. Very experienced players are able to execute based on their knowledge with very little conscious thought, but less experienced players who wish to play skillfully and have the knowledge but not the practice will spend too much time thinking. I think the "bad" player's mindlessness is an advantage in this match-up because his opponent is forced to think too much to understand his nonsensical behavior.

Intuition is a very broad term, but what I think you're getting at is internalizing execution into your muscle memory so that you don't have to think about doing something, but rather simply do it on reaction when necessary. That is an entry level skill when it comes to fighting games, and doesn't even begin to touch the actual "game."

edit -

Originally Posted by smr00

Clearly someone is doing something right if they beat someone who is an expert at a game

No disrespect to the man, but god no that guy isn't an expert
Last edited by FindMyFarms; 12-04-2013 at 02:25 PM.
crazygambit
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(12-04-2013, 02:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jamie OD

Reminds me of a saying about fencing and chess. The worst opponent a master can go against is an absolute newbie because he has not idea what the new guy is going to do.

I've seen this myth about chess a few times and it's absolutely not true. There's nothing easier to beat than a complete newb at the game. Randomness just doesn't work in chess at all, especially since just 1 stupid move can cost you the game. And the inexperienced player will make LOTS of those in a single game. I'd go as far as saying it's completely impossible for the master to lose.

Have no clue about fencing though.

Originally Posted by smr00

This thread reminds me of hardcore poker players i run into at tournaments and stuff here. They get pissed off because people aren't playing the way they should and it always blows my mind that people have this notion that there is a correct way to play poker or even video games. You play it the way you want to play it. Clearly someone is doing something right if they beat someone who is an expert at a game

You're wrong about poker though. There are clearly incorrect plays and the pros are right to get pissed. In poker you can always get lucky, but if you were chasing a 1/100 draw and got it, it doesn't mean you played it right. You would have lost 99 out of a 100 times and that's what the pros are pointing out. It was a bad decision and just luck saved you.
Last edited by crazygambit; 12-04-2013 at 02:19 PM.
hey_it's_that_dog
Banned
(12-04-2013, 02:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sojiro

Are newer players actually referred to "scrubs", or is that only pro players looking down on them sort of thing. He was not looking very happy though lol.

My understanding is that a scrub is a person with low skill. So that will apply to most new players but also some more experienced players who are still bad.
FuuRe
Junior Member
(12-04-2013, 02:20 PM)
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OP please look for jyobin in Youtube

There's a "The best of jyobin" video by YogaFlame24 too, also on Youtube

I cannot provide the links since i'm at work now and YT is blocked

Granted jyobin sure knows his stuff but his random shenanigans make him a real pain in the ass to play against
trixx
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(12-04-2013, 02:22 PM)
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dude is playing with no rules, no regards to anything. It's pretty awesome
Wynnebeck
Banned
(12-04-2013, 02:23 PM)

Originally Posted by FindMyFarms

Both these players are bad. the rufus player was even worse. To stop ryu from jumping in, all rufus literally has to do is press down and a button (mp.) Especially at the angles that ryu was jumpin in. Add in how predictable the ryu player was, and yeah, the rufus player deserved to lose every second of the round.

See it's easy to say that from behind a keyboard, but as wa said in the video by the commentators, the pressure of having people watching you on stream and at the venue makes every little thing you do make you think that much harder about it. Simple actions such as AAing an easy jump-in seems like a Herculean task.
ScOULaris
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(12-04-2013, 02:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by trixx

dude is playing with no rules, no regards to anything. It's pretty awesome

Haha. He's breaking new ground. Fearless.

Maybe he'll inspire a whole new style of play.
Sickbean
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(12-04-2013, 02:24 PM)
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I'm sorry but you won't lose a true game of skill to someone just because they are so bad they are unpredictable.

I'm a complete novice boxer - would I have a chance of beating Floyd Mayweather Jr just because he wouldn't have a clue what to expect?

This video only proves one of two things -

1. SSF4 isn't a game that requires skill to win

2. The supposed 'good' player wasn't all that good and/or was having a very bad day.
smr00
Banned
(12-04-2013, 02:25 PM)

Originally Posted by crazygambit

I've seen this myth about chess a few times and it's absolutely not true. There's nothing easier to beat than a complete newb at the game. Randomness just doesn't work in chess at all, especially since just 1 stupid move can cost you the game. And the inexperienced player will make LOTS of those in a single game. I'd go as far as saying it's completely impossible for the master to lose.

Have no clue about fencing though.



You're wrong about poker though. There are clearly incorrect plays and the pros are right to get pissed. In poker you can always get lucky, but if you were chasing a 1/100 draw and got it, it doesn't mean you played it right. You would have lost 99 out of a 100 times and that's what the pros are pointing out. It was a bad decision and just luck saved you.

The right way to play is the way you want to play.

You know why i don't conform to the bullshit "rules" of holdem? Because that's no fun. It's too predictable. You have to take risk. I will always stand by my "there is no wrong way to play" when it comes to video games or stuff like poker.
Coxy
Banned
(12-04-2013, 02:25 PM)
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A wins a win, if you lose your nerve and lose because of it, you deserve to lose. Happens in any sport
Duxxy3
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(12-04-2013, 02:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by FuuRe

OP please look for jyobin in Youtube

There's a "The best of jyobin" video by YogaFlame24 too, also on Youtube

I cannot provide the links since i'm at work now and YT is blocked

Granted jyobin sure knows his stuff but his random shenanigans make him a real pain in the ass to play against

Just watched it and that is the very definition of YOLO.
Yoshichan
I've played over 500 hours of DMC2 and consider the game good.
(12-04-2013, 02:26 PM)
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ATTENTION: SAMURAIX

Answer to OP: Almost every protoss player in SC2.
MisterHero
Super Member
(12-04-2013, 02:26 PM)
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Looks like he's fighting with Satsui no Hadou.

Have you ever felt the fighting spirit of another?
Sectus
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(12-04-2013, 02:26 PM)
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It reminds me of a match I saw in a Soul Calibur 5 tournament. The winning player won by essentially spamming the same moves as Maxi.

I wonder how well FSP would have performed if there weren't such a heavy pressure on him. Especially having the commentators right behind him laughing at him half the time could not have helped.
Anteo
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(12-04-2013, 02:27 PM)
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James Chen talked about this kind of stuff in UltraChenTV. He said that at one point you start doing good vs high level players but lose your ability to fight low level players. You are too used to reads and patterns that random guys will throw you off hard. He even quoted Mike Ross saying something like "I lost my ability to fight scrubs"

Also that fight is so hiliarous. That ryu throwing all the unsafe stuff and the Rufus player could not punish any of it. lol
Cosmo Clock 21
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(12-04-2013, 02:27 PM)
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Poor huw_dawson
Holy Order Sol
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(12-04-2013, 02:28 PM)
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People love that underdog narrative too much. Choking happens though. Whatever, a win is a win.

You're not supposed to lose your ability to win against beginners as you improve, unless you take too much time to realize you're facing one, like you're playing FT1 or something.

See it's easy to say that from behind a keyboard, but as wa said in the video by the commentators, the pressure of having people watching you on stream and at the venue makes every little thing you do make you think that much harder about it. Simple actions such as AAing an easy jump-in seems like a Herculean task.

That's the point: this is true, but if you can't do that, then you're not actually good. It means you need to improve a lot on that particular aspect.
Last edited by Holy Order Sol; 12-04-2013 at 02:33 PM.
Wynnebeck
Banned
(12-04-2013, 02:28 PM)

Originally Posted by Sickbean

I'm sorry but you won't lose a true game of skill to someone just because they are so bad they are unpredictable.

I'm a complete novice boxer - would I have a chance of beating Floyd Mayweather Jr just because he wouldn't have a clue what to expect?

This video only proves one of two things -

1. SSF4 isn't a game that requires skill to win

2. The supposed 'good' player wasn't all that good and/or was having a very bad day.

This is so wrong it hurts. All this video proves is that the best competitive players are the ones who keep their composure and learn to adapt to their opponents. FSP sadly could not do this and paid the price. As for not having skill to play SSF4 competitively, lets are Gandhi try that against Infiltration or even Mike Ross #kappa
FindMyFarms
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:28 PM)

Originally Posted by Wynnebeck

See it's easy to say that from behind a keyboard, but as wa said in the video by the commentators, the pressure of having people watching you on stream and at the venue makes every little thing you do make you think that much harder about it. Simple actions such as AAing an easy jump-in seems like a Herculean task.

If you can't deal with pressure to the point that you lose some of your most basic functionality, then you're probably not very good.

Originally Posted by Anteo

James Chen talked about this kind of stuff in UltraChenTV. He said that at one point you start doing good vs high level players but lose your ability to fight low level players. You are too used to reads and patterns that random guys will throw you off hard. He even quoted Mike Ross saying something like "I lost my ability to fight scrubs"

Also that fight is so hiliarous. That ryu throwing all the unsafe stuff and the Rufus player could not punish any of it. lol

This has more to do with remember things. There's certain moves that most good players won't do because of how unsafe they are. If you get used to only playing against safe players, then when someone comes up and starts doing bad moves, you're like uh...fuck...i forgot how to punish this! A good player maintains consistency in not forgetting things. This is a lot more of an issue with 3d games than with 2d games, since there's a million strings in 3d games that you have to know how to punish, which is also why a game like tekken is so hard to get in to.
Last edited by FindMyFarms; 12-04-2013 at 02:37 PM.
fertygo
Member
(12-04-2013, 02:28 PM)
LOL its that YOLO Ryu

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