NeoGAF

Originally Posted by famousmortimer

Even if this is true... and I do trust Shu that it is (which may be foolish of me) - what it does is makes people get comfortable with the idea of microtransactions being in their games. So then they are in more games. And then they start creeping into game design.


So while it may not affect GT6 it starts the ball rolling in a direction that is bad for our hobby.

Q: have you bought any EA games released in the past three years or so?

Originally Posted by reynal1287

Not buying GT or any game with microtransactions.

Have fun missing out on pretty much every next gen game that will come out in the next couple years

Originally Posted by FallingEdge

What's the big deal if everything is the same but you are paying to unlock everything? Same thing happened in Tales for the 360. Pay money to get EXP. No big deal.

Because the reason they are putting it in is to make more money, not to kindly help busy people. I'm not a fan PR lies and bullshit no matter how likeable the source.

This, and the "cheat codes need to come back" thread are just hurtful.

If busy people really want only the car, why not give it to them through cheats while disabling the use of said car in certain, important race, or why not disable the gain of credits when using that car, or just disable trophies?

Companies think they're doing a win-win situation, when it's clearly a win just for them.

Originally Posted by weevles

While I'm in the camp that the way monetization is being handled here isn't too bad (at least compared to Forza and some others), the whole "Deal With It" attitude doesn't work here, and should not be acceptable. For a $60 game, I expect a lot and I also expect the game to continue to be fun whether I'm "grinding" or not. I will not support full priced games that nickel and dime you for content or design the game in a way where the grind saps the fun out of the game and I certainly hope others don't lie down and accept that kind of approach as inevitable.

Same here. The last thing gamers should do is to pay more for less contents. I don't put up with games that uses tactics like on-disc DLC and micro-transaction to screw over consumers. When GT6 announced micro-transaction, it was only really my strong passion for the franchise that kept me from giving it the middle finger since I wanted to see the details behind the micro-transaction. Thankfully, it seems as GT6 implemented them in a way that doesn't compromise the game play, but because micro-transaction is present, I am going to be keeping a close eye on any announcement in regards to micro-transaction in future installments. Should micro-transaction remain a part of gaming (which I would much rather not have in the first place), companies should at least have the courtesy to not mess with the game play (and no ridiculous pricing of micro-transaction at it).

Originally Posted by Dinzy

Wait... I thought Sony was the savior of gaming with their consumer friendly policies.

Sony is my favorite of the three console manufacturers as well (and the only one who seems to understand gamers), but I've come to accept that swearing loyalty to any company is a horrible idea. I learned this the hard way as someone who used to be a huge fanboy of Nintendo but then when software for the Wii dried up in 2011, I came to realize how foolish this was. I still like Nintendo, but I haven't been pleased with their handling of the Wii U. I support Sony because they have shown that they care about putting out good products for consumers, not because of brand loyalty, and even they have done things I have grievance for.

Originally Posted by flamingotripod

Have fun missing out on pretty much every next gen game that will come out in the next couple years

So be it.

If this is such a shitty system than why is everyone so afraid of a 'slippery slope'? If people don't buy into it then it won't be successful. How is it going to 'creep into' more games if it doesn't catch on?

Or is it the fact that we're all afraid enough gamers will actually buy into this sort of trend that it will become viable for the industry? If that's the case, then so be it.

I doubt that micro-transactions will find its way into many games and actually affect gameplay any time soon. It's too risky, I think. GT6's way (as far as I understand it) is fine.







Though you know what I would pay for? Classic batshit crazy cheats in a GTA game.

Originally Posted by Poetic.Injustice

Thankfully, he points out "wait till the reviews". The point is that they have faith that if the game was built "around" microtransactions, gamers would be notified of this in the review.

Even if there is no direct correlation, and the progression system was horrible, hopefully it would be pointed out specifically because the progression system of a game has nothing to do with if you can purchase your way to a car. Some games now and in the past have had horrible progression paths and methods.

Originally Posted by famousmortimer

I typically stay away from games with microtransactions but I obviously own some. I do avoid those modes usually though. For instance I have zero interest in Ultimate Team in the sports games because of the microtransaction nonsense. Are there microtransactions in AC4? I'm 12 hours into the game and haven't seen any. Maybe they are in MP? I don't play the MP in that game.


My problem with the microtransaction in GT6 is that the game is built around credits. And while it may not affect the design decisions this time it's the start of something I don't like.

AC4 lets you skip grinding in single player for a couple of dollars.

Originally Posted by Solal

75% of players did not even finish the Beginner championship in GT5 (look at the trophies stats if you don't believe me). That means 75% played career mode less than 2 hours. (mind you : that doesn't mean they did not play arcade or online for years... )

As a game designer, having the huge majority of players abandonning your game before it even starts is a HUGE problem. And in an industry fighting against resale, not being able to make guys who payed 60$ play for 2 hours is a fault.

How did they fix it in GT6? Did they think: "Fuck... we gave up on our consumers here"? Did they change the game design? Did they throw away the grinding so that people who were disappointed by GT5 will be happy?

No: they changed nothing (if we believe the people who have the game) and they make those people pay to skip a game mechanics they don't like in the first place.
Basically: they try to get more money from you because you don't enjoy the game they knew you would not enjoy in the first place. The same you that made their game so successful and that pays their bills. They screw you my friends.

There is not one good reason you should have to pay again to enjoy a game.

Many here say: "I would not buy it...but if some want...why preventing them?" In all those threads about MT I have never red anyone say:"I ll buy it because I love to pay stuff more than getting stuff for free!"

Noone pays a car 100$ if he has a choice. MT are manipulation of consummers. Plain and simple. As Jimquisition says: they put a moral choice in your head that should never be there. When you buy a game full price, you don't want to fight against temptation, you just want to play and enjoy the game.
Nobody says they should not get those cars/tracks... we say they get them for free! they payed for the content already. You pretend to defend the people's right to pay...when we defend their right to get it free!
And tell me: why would you care if someone gets cars cheating? As long as he can't use them against you online? Why do you not care if he pays, but care if he gets them free? How would it ruin your own driving experience?

You have my sword.

Originally Posted by Solal

75% of players did not even finish the Beginner championship in GT5 (look at the trophies stats if you don't believe me). That means 75% played career mode less than 2 hours. (mind you : that doesn't mean they did not play arcade or online for years... )

That would be me. I rented it from Gamefly when it launched, tried out a few modes, realized that the interface was so slow and convoluted that I never wanted to play it again, and I sent it back.

Originally Posted by Solal

75% of players did not even finish the Beginner championship in GT5 (look at the trophies stats if you don't believe me). That means 75% played career mode less than 2 hours. (mind you : that doesn't mean they did not play arcade or online for years... )

As a game designer, having the huge majority of players abandonning your game before it even starts is a HUGE problem. And in an industry fighting against resale, not being able to make guys who payed 60$ play for 2 hours is a fault.

How did they fix it in GT6? Did they think: "Fuck... we gave up on our consumers here"? Did they change the game design? Did they throw away the grinding so that people who were disappointed by GT5 will be happy?

No: they changed nothing (if we believe the people who have the game) and they make those people pay to skip a game mechanics they don't like in the first place.
Basically: they try to get more money from you because you don't enjoy the game they knew you would not enjoy in the first place. The same you that made their game so successful and that pays their bills. They screw you my friends.

There is not one good reason you should have to pay again to enjoy a game.

Many here say: "I would not buy it...but if some want...why preventing them?" In all those threads about MT I have never red anyone say:"I ll buy it because I love to pay stuff more than getting stuff for free!"

Noone pays a car 100$ if he has a choice. MT are manipulation of consummers. Plain and simple. As Jimquisition says: they put a moral choice in your head that should never be there. When you buy a game full price, you don't want to fight against temptation, you just want to play and enjoy the game.
Nobody says they should not get those cars/tracks... we say they get them for free! they payed for the content already. You pretend to defend the people's right to pay...when we defend their right to get it free!
And tell me: why would you care if someone gets cars cheating? As long as he can't use them against you online? Why do you not care if he pays, but care if he gets them free? How would it ruin your own driving experience?

post of the thread.

These type of micro transactions don't bother me. I don't care what other people do with their money and it isn't like you can pay your way to the top in the online. By all accounts the game isn't designed around this purchase and the economy/progression is unaffected. From the impressions I've read, my $60 is going to what is in the game(minus DLC) and I wont need to spend any money on additional credits. I've played every GT since 1 and understand the 'Grind' the series has always been about. The moment I feel steered into a purchase to advance (for a full priced title) is the day I drop the series cold. Fortunately, it doesn't look like I have to quite GT just yet.

I know people who has spent over $1000 on Ultimate Team on FIFA.

Originally Posted by TangoAlphaLima

But this is our opportunity to stop it from succeeding. If both Forza and Gran Turismo have embedded microtransactions, but Gran Turismo's don't alter the game in any way, while Forza's do, then vote with your wallet. Buy Gran Turismo, don't buy Forza. And should the tables turn some day, then buy Forza and not Gran Turismo. It's a free market, support the better alternative.

I agree completely. If you genuinely care, and aren't just being reactionary, the particulars of the implementation are absolutely vital in your decision to support or not support the game.

Blanket refusal just sends a message that you may as well embed it in the design because noone actually cares if you didn't. That we, as gamers, are too dumb to be able to tell the difference.

I'm sorry but we really need to stamp down on this sort of black/white thinking. We need more nuanced and considered responses because this sort of simple-mindedness is going to get us precisely nowhere.

Originally Posted by Frillen

I know people who has spent over $1000 on Ultimate Team on FIFA.

Out of curiosity, were they rich and over 25?

Originally Posted by flamingotripod

Have fun missing out on pretty much every next gen game that will come out in the next couple years

This works both ways, that company can miss out on our money as well.

Originally Posted by Style Fox

AC4 lets you skip grinding in single player for a couple of dollars.

Ac4 is the first time Ive made it more than 2 hours into a AC game... but what exactly do you need to grind? Money?


Anyway, a couple of bucks to max out a character is also fucking stupid. It's not on the same level as building a game around credits and then selling the credits for cash though.


But yeah, if AC5 looks like something I want... knowing this may put me off it.

Originally Posted by Solal

75% of players did not even finish the Beginner championship in GT5 (look at the trophies stats if you don't believe me). That means 75% played career mode less than 2 hours. (mind you : that doesn't mean they did not play arcade or online for years... )

As a game designer, having the huge majority of players abandonning your game before it even starts is a HUGE problem. And in an industry fighting against resale, not being able to make guys who payed 60$ play for 2 hours is a fault.

How did they fix it in GT6? Did they think: "Fuck... we gave up on our consumers here"? Did they change the game design? Did they throw away the grinding so that people who were disappointed by GT5 will be happy?

No: they changed nothing (if we believe the people who have the game) and they make those people pay to skip a game mechanics they don't like in the first place.
Basically: they try to get more money from you because you don't enjoy the game they knew you would not enjoy in the first place. The same you that made their game so successful and that pays their bills. They screw you my friends.

There is not one good reason you should have to pay again to enjoy a game.

Many here say: "I would not buy it...but if some want...why preventing them?" In all those threads about MT I have never red anyone say:"I ll buy it because I love to pay stuff more than getting stuff for free!"

Noone pays a car 100$ if he has a choice. MT are manipulation of consummers. Plain and simple. As Jimquisition says: they put a moral choice in your head that should never be there. When you buy a game full price, you don't want to fight against temptation, you just want to play and enjoy the game.
Nobody says they should not get those cars/tracks... we say they get them for free! they payed for the content already. You pretend to defend the people's right to pay...when we defend their right to get it free!
And tell me: why would you care if someone gets cars cheating? As long as he can't use them against you online? Why do you not care if he pays, but care if he gets them free? How would it ruin your own driving experience?

part of this is the weirdness of games as a whole. as someone said (I don't recall) books and movies don't give you a test halfway through before they decide if they'll let you find out how it ends.

racing games and anything else grindy have the same problem. on the one hand, you want a challenge you'll be rewarded for, on the other hand, they're invariably hours of gaming you didn't really sign up for (for most people, a small fraction enjoy every second) so you can play w/ the car that's advertised right on the front of the box.

Originally Posted by CrunchinJelly

or you can buy it straight away if you drop £119.95

Get the fuck out of here with that nonsense, PD!

Originally Posted by params7

PD want money.

They can have my money for providing content, like they did with GT5.

Just as Forza could have had my money for tracks or cars.

But both games just have to push things too far.

This is whole microtransactions thing is justifying the grind mechanics. It may not be as bad as Forza or is equal to GT5. But the grind is not going to get better or change because of this.

What happens when all the new games come along, the new IPs where you have no past to compare against. Will they have lots of heavily disguised grind with the soothe of microtransactions. Is this what all games are going to be, dull boring grinds, with a few fun bits?

Will less players be interested in them but developers wont care because they will happily feed off the whales?

Originally Posted by Sentry

If this is such a shitty system than why is everyone so afraid of a 'slippery slope'? If people don't buy into it then it won't be successful. How is it going to 'creep into' more games if it doesn't catch on?

Or is it the fact that we're all afraid enough gamers will actually buy into this sort of trend that it will become viable for the industry? If that's the case, then so be it.

I doubt that micro-transactions will find its way into many games and actually affect gameplay any time soon. It's too risky, I think. GT6's way (as far as I understand it) is fine.

It's happening right now. It's part of every "casual" smartphone/tablet game and now it's in just about every PS4 and XBO game. It doesn't need to "catch on", because companies are already making a lot of money on it as we discuss this very issue.

It's bad for console gamers because companies still want to charge full retail price of $60 for the game while subtracting features and content and changing the design of games to facilitate microtransactions on top of that. In the smartphone/tablet space, the business model relies on F2P or a much lower price to entry.

Originally Posted by Cheesemeister

Macrotransactions!

:)

Originally Posted by Calabi

This is whole microtransactions thing is justifying the grind mechanics. It may not be as bad as Forza or is equal to GT5. But the grind is not going to get better or change because of this.

Exactly. Why fix or loosen up what is now tethered to a revenue stream?

Its now in PDs interest to keep the grind or extend it, and there are quite a few ways for them to do so. Additional upgrade costs being just one of them as FamousMortimer points out.

I think I had all of 20 cars in GT5 because the majority of my time was spent doing time trials and practice laps. I played as much campaign to unlock the Nurburgring, and then to skill up and acquire credits. The driving was fun for me, but you just can't make credits that way.

Originally Posted by flamingotripod

Have fun missing out on pretty much every next gen game that will come out in the next couple years

Who says you have to buy a game to play it? That's what friends and CFW are for. Besides that, who wants to play a grindfest?

Originally Posted by Frillen

I know people who has spent over $1000 on Ultimate Team on FIFA.

You can thank these stupids for making these practices more and more possible in full price games in the future.

More money than brains for fucks sake....

Originally Posted by params7

PD want money. At least Yoshia acknowledges the game should not be designed around microtransactions. Which is kind of reassuring, but I don't really know how anyone can fully trust the devs/publishers here.

PD acknowledge this as well hence the economy staying the same.

So, I assume all those complaining never bought Assassin's Creed 3 or 4, Batman Arkham Origins, Sleeping Dogs, Saints Row 3 or 4 or pretty much any EA game from the last three years, right?

Ladies and gentlemen, let's face facts here: microtransactions are now part and parcel of the AAA experience, and going forward they will be in all AAA games. Protesting each and every microtransactioned game will mean that you're going to be protesting all AAA games. We should shout at the bad implementations where game balance is affected to encourage you to buy the microtransactions (such as Forza 5) and ignore the implementations where that isn't true (such as SSX and Dead Space 3). As it is, it appears that GT6 is in the latter category, especially if Seasonal Events pay out as much as GT5's recent events.

Originally Posted by jelly

An alternative fast track route is free cheat codes, a separate game mode that has access to all cars etc. They don't have to charge.

From what I've read, you already have access to all the cars in the free race mode.

If it doesn't affect the in game economy can we have free DLC? Subsidize our content pay to winners!

Originally Posted by GTP_Daverytimes

Turn 10 deliberately made it harder to earn credits in Forza 5 in order to push people to purchase tokens, that's what people were mad about.

The problem is microtransactions and what you said.

Originally Posted by flamingotripod

Have fun missing out on pretty much every next gen game that will come out in the next couple years

The Witcher 3 and many indie games await those that refuse to support these anti-consumer practices.

Originally Posted by Solal

Noone pays a car 100$ if he has a choice. MT are manipulation of consummers. Plain and simple. As Jimquisition says: they put a moral choice in your head that should never be there. When you buy a game full price, you don't want to fight against temptation, you just want to play and enjoy the game.
Nobody says they should not get those cars/tracks... we say they get them for free! they payed for the content already. You pretend to defend the people's right to pay...when we defend their right to get it free!

What are you even addressing here?

Cars and tracks aren't locked as on-disc DLC (except for the pre-order versions, probably). Once you plunk down money for the game, it's up to you to go in and earn credits (for free!) for whatever cars and upgrades you want.

Originally Posted by staticneuron

LMAO. So purchasing the $100 vehicle isn't a choice?

So people not getting past the Beginner Championship means there is something wrong with the game?

I am sorry but everything you seem to be posting just seems to rail against the evils of microtransactions, but to do so you have to paint a scenario that fits your argument.

But it goes back to the point of reviews. There are alot of people who enjoyed GT5 but was turned off by loading times (an issue with the hardware versus the experience they are trying to get across). But if you read a review and it says it is just like GT5 and you didn't like GT5 then do not purchase GT6. Which makes this overblown reaction even more pointless.

He said GT5 loading times were slow because he believes PD is gathering info and GT is connecting to the server in between screens. >_>

Originally Posted by synce

Who says you have to buy a game to play it? That's what friends and CFW are for.

Yeah, no.

If the grind is paced like prior games in the series, this is nothing new. The only difference is that people who don't like to actually play the game can skip straight to buying cars. Is it lame? Sure. And IMO it's a quick-and-dirty fix to a bigger design problem: how to make better cars valuable. In prior iterations, they just took time to earn. Now, you can shortcut the process by shelling out actual money.

Personally, I'd like to see actual skill factor into earning better cars, but that's a much more difficult thing to measure and design around.

Originally Posted by phosphor112

He said GT5 loading times were slow because he believes PD is gathering info and GT is connecting to the server in between screens. >_>

Didn't know Dresden had an alt account.

Originally Posted by Delusibeta

So, I assume all those complaining never bought Assassin's Creed 3 or 4, Batman Arkham Origins, Sleeping Dogs, Saints Row 3 or 4 or pretty much any EA game from the last three years, right?

Ladies and gentlemen, let's face facts here: microtransactions are now part and parcel of the AAA experience, and going forward they will be in all AAA games. Protesting each and every microtransactioned game will mean that you're going to be protesting all AAA games. We should shout at the bad implementations where game balance is affected to encourage you to buy the microtransactions (such as Forza 5) and ignore the implementations where that isn't true (such as SSX and Dead Space 3). As it is, it appears that GT6 is in the latter category, especially if Seasonal Events pay out as much as GT5's recent events.

I am sure they played them but ignored the fact that they were there until Forza 5 implementation of them. Reason being is because in most of those games the optional MT didn't get in the way of the enjoyment of the game.

I have no problem grinding out credits in game, why this is an issue all of a sudden is beyond me when we have been doing it since GT1. I do have a problem if the rate of credits is some how made so minuscule that its basically coaxing you to pay money to not spend 100 hours to get a car. Same goes for skipping through modes, if you don't want to play the game, shit that's your issue not someone who actually you know... buys a game to play it.

Originally Posted by staticneuron

Thankfully, he points out "wait till the reviews". The point is that they have faith that if the game was built "around" microtransactions, gamers would be notified of this in the review.

Really? Gamers would know? Just like they did regarding Forza 5's monetization and balance by reading reviews?

I'm getting a bit tired of the Microsoft bashing but come on, we just had an example of monetization being used to change the balance of a game and what was it, a week or so ago? You can sometimes still see some topics related to it popping up this forum's first page.

Most of the Forza 5 reviews I've seen, if not all of them, didn't even mention the presence of Microtransactions. I'm not sure if that's because they were ignoring it or because they were taking microtransactions as being an average part of modern games, but truth of the matter is, they failed to even propose they might be an issue.

The games reporting industry is largely ignoring that is becoming more and more ambiguous and prevalent in our boxed $60 AAA games but you'd deposit your faith on them nonetheless?

We, the "loud ones" and opinion-makers are the ones who hold the power to change this course. During this past generation we've been constantly teased, taunted and abused in terms of consumer privileges and money-gouging tactics and only when we get upset and very loud do the publishers say sorry and revert these malpractices.

Be it Sony, Microsoft, Capcom or EA, we need to stand together and fight these practices before they end up alienating consumers and decrease the value and quality of the medium we enjoy.

I don't care that they didn't change the economy, I still don't want this shit in my games. Giving extra options? Fuck that. If my extra option is wonder if I want to grind x hours or pay x, I don't want that option. Just let me play the game without all this bullshit ffs.

I'm buying it on friday anyway...

First it's DLC and Season Pass bullshit, and now this. I don't like this trend.