I like the Gran Turismo series, but sorry if I don't want to support a developer who will charge a hundred and sixty dollars for a virtual car in a game. I don't CARE if you can grind and get it. It's morally and ethically reprehensible for a developer to charge that much for somebody who wants the game but doesn't NECESSARILY want to grind long enough to get that car. The other option could have been, "well, grind or don't get the car". But, no, instead they dangle this $150+ carrot over you. I don't mind microtransactions, depending on the value and the items. But what I do mind is that there is an item, a render, in this game that they are charging a hundred and sixty real US dollars for, even if you CAN grind long enough to get it.Then for those that don't like to spend money, it's ok, they can keep playing the game earning the same they earned in the previous.
For those that don't like that others spend money, it's ok. They'll spend a pretty penny in order to get the cars.
Again, people whining without knowing what they're whining about.
Pure sheep mentality. No one actually asking if this change actually hurts them. It doesn't.
Feel free to whine about no MT. I'll support you. I prefer having no MT in games then having them at all. But you have to know they're here to stay, and as such, you need to pick the ones that aren't harmful and make your voice heard that if developers mess with the economy of the game, just to make MT more appealing, then they won't get away with it.
Can save the grind and buy car instead.
Complains about that too
NeoGAF in a nutshell.
This thread is really embarassing
"Can save the grind and buy the car for only $160 instead! AND YOU GUYS ARE COMPLAINING?!! EMBARASSING!"Complains that you don't want to grind to get a car.
Can save the grind and buy car instead.
Complains about that too
NeoGAF in a nutshell.
This thread is really embarassing
The fact that they can get away with this shit is reason enough to be pissed. This isn't the future we want.Complains that you don't want to grind to get a car.
Can save the grind and buy car instead.
Complains about that too
NeoGAF in a nutshell.
This thread is really embarassing
Or redesign that aspect of the game to facilitate a more manageable and fun grind, or include cheat codes for those wanting a quick fix.Complains that you don't want to grind to get a car.
Can save the grind and buy car instead.
Complains about that too
NeoGAF in a nutshell.
This thread is really embarassing
Instead we pay them money to get around their unfixed design issues.
We'll know more when the game launched, but this is more of a marathon game and has always been a marathon game which then added shortcuts but not cheap short cuts.
It muddies the waters, its easier and better if they weren't there but it seems different to me from what i've read so far.
If progression, rewards, features, etc of the economy is similar to GT5 then i don't see it in the same light as Forza.
Edit: If everything was the same but no MT's would people have issue? Some seem to be wanting everything unlocked with no progression at all. Seems like that ruins some of the fun and appeal of a career mode like in GT. Also I don't see how you can have cheat codes or things like that and maintain a healthy online ecosystem. It'd have to be, use cheat code..local play (or friends only)
Please dont bring logic to this thread.I can see how its easy to lump this in with the rest of the MT hate brigade, but unless I missed it, this doesn't have the biggest issues with MTs that i noticed with Forza and others, where the design decisions were clearly made to force gamers down the MT path.
Just be like the others and run around like a headless chicken.
I'm sure some would, but I wouldn't.
If everything was the same but no MT's would people have issue?
Having real money influence progression ruins a lot for me, especially in challenging and/or grindy games. My three all time favorite games would all have been ruined with micros or adjustable difficulty sliders (demon's souls, p4g, super mario galaxy 2). I know p4g had a difficulty slider, but you couldn't adjust it once you started.
Not everyone feels that way, and that's fine. I'm kind of a niche gamer, I suppose.
Well, here we are. Why would they stop now?
Yeah, as long as that's the case... I don't see a big problem.I don't understand the problem. The author of the article said that payouts were the same as GT5. Y'all need to calm down.
Unless people want to get angry about the slippery-slope aspect, which is an argument they would be 6 years too late to have.
I can get that. When you know there's an option (even with it being expensive) it can cheapen the rewards you've worked to achieve in the game.Originally Posted by Untalkative_Bunny
I'm sure some would, but I wouldn't.
Having real money influence progression ruins a lot for me, especially in challenging and/or grindy games. My three all time favorite games would all have been ruined with micros or adjustable difficulty sliders (demon's souls, p4g, super mario galaxy 2). I know p4g had a difficulty slider, but you couldn't adjust it once you started.
Not everyone feels that way, and that's fine. I'm kind of a niche gamer, I suppose.
GT6 seems to be (from what i've read) right on that line and dancing on it before crossing over into evil game design. Who knows if they go farther into it with GT7. Heh given the long dev cycles and the more sudden MT craze this could have just been thrown in at the top layer just because they're so slow.
At the end of the day I won't ever buy these kind of MTs and i'd love them to not be there. If i find out they're in games with noticeable design alterations to the series to nudge gamers to it, then i have big issues with it. If not and its a game i want i'll work around it.
But to issue concerns this is the tip of the iceberg with the GT franchise is more than warranted. They opened the door for this scrutiny
That was still hard to bear so to appease players, seasonals paid out a lot of money. But those seasonals expired and subsequent seasonals haven't paid nearly as much. The true grind was back in but by this time most players had most of the cars they wanted so not many cared.
Now we're at GT6 and if reports are true, it is indeed a grind again because we are back GT5 post duplication era.
But now we have all this content to unlock so players will care. So what does Polyphony do? They re-purpose the duplication trick so that this time you have to pay for it.
In GT5 I had 3 XJ13 that I got via the duplication so I didn't have to grind[and there are legitimate reasons for having 3 of the same car].
I can have the same in GT6 for £360.
1. If you don't get enjoyment out of racing and completing the game, then why are you playing a racing game?Or redesign that aspect of the game to facilitate a more manageable and fun grind, or include cheat codes for those wanting a quick fix.
Instead we pay them money to get around their unfixed design issues.
2. There never were cheats for GT. The game is a sim. Why would a sim have cheats?
In the game your garage is the same thing you would use across all modes, so unless you would use it for freeplay, to try to use it in career mode or online mode is simply not an option.
3. That one care people continue to talk about is 1 out of 1207 cars available at the launch of the game. Not that many cars will be that expensive. It is an old car, cost around the same in previous versions 20 mill along with the Ferrari 330 P4 and the Ford Mark IV. Which you could win the XJ13 in the game and have a chance to be gifted the other cars on your birthday.
But the main allure is to win races and win credits and prizes. To claim that it is broken because a handful of cars out of 1200 are going to be uber expensive is a silly point to stand on.
Oh yeah, those things that the GT series never had?Originally Posted by The Hermit
Hey guys, remember cheat codes?
This game is offering an amazing amount of content anyway, so I hardly think anyone is going to have nothing to do and be forced into buying crap with real money. Just my 2 cents, but I still plan on picking this game up around Christmas.
Then buy the game (if you're interested, obviously) and don't pay for that stuff. Or don't buy the game if that bothers you. I'm all for people choosing what they want, how they want it.Originally Posted by EightBitNate
The fact that they can get away with this shit is reason enough to be pissed. This isn't the future we want.
People have already said that GT6 is identical to the previous ones, this time you just can pay not to grind, which has always been part of it.
I still remember having to grind in GT3 (which was the last GT I actually enjoyed, hated 4 and 5, games became too sim for me) just to win races, keep progressing and buying cars.
I've already played quite a few games (on several platforms) where developers gave me the chance to buy gold, items for crafting, and whatever else you can think of, I just chose not to buy anything.
Is it the best road? I guess it depends on how the GT audience in general responds to it.
Is it "evil"? Not really, since the games have always been like this.
Is it an outdated progression model for the career? Maybe, but what's the alternative to not grinding a few races? Just letting people breeze through it?
Maybe they should allow us to race within the cloud when we are sleeping to speed up the grind to get these cars instead?Couldn't they have just included cheat codes if they were worried busy people couldn't play the game to that degree? I'm kind of worried about this because I don't trust they won't make it harder to 'grind' those cars for regular players.
That said, that's my personal feeling. I'm an achievement player and I like achievements which cannot be monetized or auctioned or sold. Just my personal preference. I also respect GT or Forza's freedom to do it. Gaming is my hobby but finance is my profession. So, I assure you, as a professional I respect what and why GT or Forza do this. But as a gamer, I like knowing when my XP grinds are balanced and designed by as close to 100% pure game design and game passion as possible, and isolated as much as possible from financial influence.
I said I personally didn't like it in Forza, so I've got to be fair and say the same for Gran Turismo. I would say the same if my favorite MMO let me pay to automatically be max level, or Suikoden let me pay to get all 108 Stars of Destiny. I just don't like thinking that the developer may be leveraging my time to construe game design in a more financially beneficial manner. If I pay for a game, I would prefer to know the game was designed based on his passion and what he thinks his genuinely the best game design.
That said, it's not a make or break issue. I can accept it as a finance guy. I think some cases may be easier to accept than others. I don't really know yet how I will end up feeling about Forza 5 and Gran Turismo 6... I know I don't like the idea of it now... But I guess we'll see how it goes in the future. I'm willing to give them some benefit of doubt, as someone that wants to see the industry be profitable and wants to think that these decisions don't spite great design and the most optimally balanced grinds. But it's an area of uncertainty, and I'm not sure if I won't reject or accept it further -- I just know my first impression is distasteful. I mean, that's like the monthly insurance on a new Jag...
The B-spec drivers were basically the same concept.Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre
Maybe they should allow us to race within the cloud when we are sleeping to speed up the grind to get these cars instead?
http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gt5/bspec/
My B-pecs not only earned me money but also won cars. With all six leveled up I would get anywhere from 800k to a Mill in gifts/rewards wen I made them available online.
I never did any of that but I do remember the feature being added. Getting enough credits in-game wasn't an issue for me in GT5 so hopefully the same for GT6. I did have do so quite a bit of grinding though but I used the quickest race to earn credit routes as I could. The game design should be based on skill reward concept and not grinding but that's just me.Originally Posted by staticneuron
The B-spec drivers were basically the same concept.
http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gt5/bspec/
My B-pecs not only earned me money but also won cars. With all six leveled up I would get anywhere from 800k to a Mill in gifts/rewards wen I made them available online.
My point was that it's only an option now, but who's to say it won't become the future of gaming? If it shows any success, what are the chances GT7 takes it a step further and GT8 is full blown pay-to-play?Originally Posted by Kazuma Kiryu
Then buy the game (if you're interested, obviously) and don't pay for that stuff. Or don't buy the game if that bothers you. I'm all for people choosing what they want, how they want it.
People have already said that GT6 is identical to the previous ones, this time you just can pay not to grind, which has always been part of it.
I still remember having to grind in GT3 (which was the last GT I actually enjoyed, hated 4 and 5, games became too sim for me) just to win races, keep progressing and buying cars.
I've already played quite a few games (on several platforms) where developers gave me the chance to buy gold, items for crafting, and whatever else you can think of, I just chose not to buy anything.
Is it the best road? I guess it depends on how the GT audience in general responds to it.
Is it "evil"? Not really, since the games have always been like this.
Is it an outdated progression model for the career? Maybe, but what's the alternative to not grinding a few races? Just letting people breeze through it?
I mean....Originally Posted by VanWinkle
I like the Gran Turismo series, but sorry if I don't want to support a developer who will charge a hundred and sixty dollars for a virtual car in a game. I don't CARE if you can grind and get it. It's morally and ethically reprehensible for a developer to charge that much for somebody who wants the game but doesn't NECESSARILY want to grind long enough to get that car. The other option could have been, "well, grind or don't get the car". But, no, instead they dangle this $150+ carrot over you. I don't mind microtransactions, depending on the value and the items. But what I do mind is that there is an item, a render, in this game that they are charging a hundred and sixty real US dollars for, even if you CAN grind long enough to get it.
Just so I'm clear, is it the fact that it's $150? If they didn't offer the option to buy with cash at all and the game was just as it is now...you would be fine with it? Is there a price that you think is fair that retains the core concept of the game as a grind game but gives an option that few would exercise?
Also, why do you feel like that $150 item will be dangling over your head like the Sword of Damocles? Is it going to be on the in-game billboards? On every page of the UI? Is Terry Crews gonna come knock on your door with that automatic shotgun of his if you don't buy sooner rather than later?
Just seems like extreme reactions to avenues for people who don't want to play GT like GT was meant to be played. This doesn't affect you or I in any way. It won't change how we or our friends play the game. If your constitution is so week that a $150 item option is going to whisper to you in your sleep, it's probably a good time to leave gaming entirely, because this shit is just getting started. As long as the games aren't designed to make items harder to get through conventional means to get in order to push micro transactions, I don't see the problem.
If you didn't want to grind that long to get the car in the first place, you still wouldn't have it even if there was no microtransactions. I don't see what you're upset about.Originally Posted by VanWinkle
I like the Gran Turismo series, but sorry if I don't want to support a developer who will charge a hundred and sixty dollars for a virtual car in a game. I don't CARE if you can grind and get it. It's morally and ethically reprehensible for a developer to charge that much for somebody who wants the game but doesn't NECESSARILY want to grind long enough to get that car. The other option could have been, "well, grind or don't get the car". But, no, instead they dangle this $150+ carrot over you. I don't mind microtransactions, depending on the value and the items. But what I do mind is that there is an item, a render, in this game that they are charging a hundred and sixty real US dollars for, even if you CAN grind long enough to get it.
It was though. You won a vehicle and credits when you completed events, special events, championships, licenses, B-spec runs and online races. In addition to that you were given cars for free every now and then based off of releases or races won in real life.Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre
I never did any of that but I do remember the feature being added. Getting enough credits in-game wasn't an issue for me in GT5 so hopefully the same for GT6. I did have do so quite a bit of grinding though but I used the quickest race to earn credit routes as I could. The game design should be based on skill reward concept and not grinding but that's just me.
The game hasn't changed. Do well, win, get credits AND vehicles. More often than not you would win cars that would allow you to compete in other races so there was rarely a reason for you to spend credits unless you were aiming for a specific vehicle.
I am not sure 'why' you chose to grind in GT5 but I doubt it had any reason to do with actually progressing and completing the game.... unless you never actually had the skill to gold the events (which TBH weren't hard for most of the early races).
TBH, these cars I mentioned earlier were in GT5..... I probably did make enough to purchase all 3. Never did because, you don't really "need" the vehicles to complete races, and the other cars you could get with that amount of money were quite numerous and simply more appealing. This situation is even more overblown considering the fact that I don't believe any one even cared enough to grind the money to get this car much less would find it worth enough to spend real money on.Originally Posted by Dreams-Visions
Just seems like extreme reactions to avenues for people who don't want to play GT like GT was meant to be played. This doesn't affect you or I in any way. It won't change how we or our friends play the game. If your constitution is so week that a $150 item option is going to whisper to you in your sleep, it's probably a good time to leave gaming entirely, because this shit is just getting started. As long as the games aren't designed to make items harder to get through conventional means to get in order to push micro transactions, I don't see the problem.
I'll tell you why I did - so I could afford the cars I wanted to drive or race on the tracks I wanted to.Originally Posted by staticneuron
I am not sure 'why' you chose to grind in GT5 but I doubt it had any reason to do with actually progressing and completing the game.... unless you never actually had the skill to gold the events (which TBH weren't hard for most of the early races).
I found the campaign to be mostly a chore and overly restrictive in terms of what cars I could use on what tracks.
So I ground through them, not to complete the campaign, but to unlock the skill rank I needed and requisite credits to take my 458, Enzo and Lambos to time trial the ring and city circuits. Because the driving itself is fucking phenomenal, and burning through the ring from dusk to dawn was downright phenomenal.
To do that I had to grind. Or was that not a valid way to play?
I'm not interested in online or B-Spec. I may be more interested in racing against AI if the AI has truly improved. So my outlets for cash are kindof slim here.
What design issue? You make more money per race than any other racing game.Or redesign that aspect of the game to facilitate a more manageable and fun grind, or include cheat codes for those wanting a quick fix.
Instead we pay them money to get around their unfixed design issues.
Online is against other people and the B-specs are AI you coach. It is easier to gauge success between a vehicle and their temperament. You really didn't need to baby the AI.Originally Posted by NullPointer
I'll tell you why I did - so I could afford the cars I wanted to drive or race on the tracks I wanted to.
I found the campaign to be mostly a chore and overly restrictive in terms of what cars I could use on what tracks.
So I ground through them, not to complete the campaign, but to unlock the skill rank I needed and requisite credits to take my 458, Enzo and Lambos to time trial the ring and city circuits. Because the driving itself is fucking phenomenal, and burning through the ring from dusk to dawn was downright phenomenal.
To do that I had to grind. Or was that not a valid way to play?
I'm not interested in online or B-Spec. I may be more interested in racing against AI if the AI has truly improved. So my outlets for cash are kindof slim here.
It is a choice on how to play, but because you chose to play the game outside of the way it has been designed since the series inception, it really begs the question why bother when there other competent and more flexible racers out there (over 100 racers for the PS3)? If the game is a chore to you, because of your very specific wants, how is that the games problem? Why would they change a formula Many fans of the franchise enjoy for that?
Edit: Also when you mention grinding you bring to mind repeating events. You really didn't have to do that, it would have been much faster to simply win events and progress. To get all the lambo's and ferrari's outside of the F1 and the classics only cost around 6.8 million credits, which when trying to get to level 15 was extremely easy, even more so if you didn't want the other cars earned. You simply could have sold them.
I agree.Originally Posted by IISANDERII
The duplication trick from GT5 was used almost universally because the grinding was too much. There was so much outcry when it was patched out that they had to patch it back in for a short time to give players their final chance to complete last moment duplications.
That was still hard to bear so to appease players, seasonals paid out a lot of money. But those seasonals expired and subsequent seasonals haven't paid nearly as much. The true grind was back in but by this time most players had most of the cars they wanted so not many cared.
Now we're at GT6 and if reports are true, it is indeed a grind again because we are back GT5 post duplication era.
But now we have all this content to unlock so players will care. So what does Polyphony do? They re-purpose the duplication trick so that this time you have to pay for it.
In GT5 I had 3 XJ13 that I got via the duplication so I didn't have to grind[and there are legitimate reasons for having 3 of the same car].
I can have the same in GT6 for £360.
Do you people think seasonal events are still gonna give decent pay outs?
GT5 grinding was HORRIBLE before those events, now with this micro transaction bullshit, I don't think Polyphony is going to be that charitable this time around...
If you can't see the correlation and how this is bringing gaming to a sad state, then you are blind, don't support this shit, seriously.
Just like used game sales eh? It's the future, you can't change it. We should buy into Xbox One because Microsoft is doing it right with their ten users limit. Newsflash, we turned that megacorporation completely around with our tantrums, based on a few preorders.It is insane to have such a reaction to micro transactions when it really has no impact on the game at all. If you don't buy them then the game is just like they never existed.
What is even more insane are the 'won't buy anything with MT' types. Do you guys even think at all? MT are not going away and your tantrums will not change that. If you hate MT then you should be begging for GT6 to sell very well. GT6 does MT in a way that can be totally ignored with no impact on the game at all. This model needs to be encouraged. What they gave consumers is freedom. Play as usual or skip ahead at a cost if you like. This is good.
If Turn 10 or Polyphony want to throw their brand under the bus by being completely immoral, then that's exactly what they're doing.
Saying you're not going to support Forza or Gran Turismo is not going to change anything. I accept this as long as I'm not at a disadvantage if I choose not to pay.
You don't need to. And nowhere in the game is there a jaguar with a 'buy now for only £120!' button next to it. They've simply taken one of the most expensive cars in the game and calculated how much it would cost using optional credits. Pretty much an artificial situation to make a nice headlineOriginally Posted by VanWinkle
So needing to spend ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY EUROS for one of the cars in the game is their nice, friendly anti-consumer way of giving people an alternate option for fast-tracking a car? Sounds amazing! We definitely shouldn't be complaining. That's chump change for us that don't want to invest the hours!
And there's such a magnifying glass on it this time because of how badly Forza seemed to bend everyone over on theirs. Even a whiff of microtransactions on this game sounded alarms across the gaming world.
I won gold but not all gold. I found I got stuck on a few races so I focused in getting the Red Bull car which took some grinding. The game has a lot of cars and to collect even 1/5th of them it requires quite a bit of grinding. Some of the higher races require better cars than you unlock and can be quite expensive as well.Originally Posted by staticneuron
It was though. You won a vehicle and credits when you completed events, special events, championships, licenses, B-spec runs and online races. In addition to that you were given cars for free every now and then based off of releases or races won in real life.
The game hasn't changed. Do well, win, get credits AND vehicles. More often than not you would win cars that would allow you to compete in other races so there was rarely a reason for you to spend credits unless you were aiming for a specific vehicle.
I am not sure 'why' you chose to grind in GT5 but I doubt it had any reason to do with actually progressing and completing the game.... unless you never actually had the skill to gold the events (which TBH weren't hard for most of the early races).
Make no mistake about it, I loved Gt5.
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