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i-Lo
Member
(01-12-2014, 03:50 PM)
i-Lo's Avatar
Being at the top is like a double edged sword. Makes me wonder just how much extra pressure this means for ND when developing TLoU 2.

Still, for now, my congratulations to ND.
x-Lundz-x
Member
(01-12-2014, 03:52 PM)
x-Lundz-x's Avatar
Easily one of the best games I've ever played. Well deserved even though Bioshock was my GOTY followed by TLoU.
daviyoung
Banned
(01-12-2014, 03:54 PM)
daviyoung's Avatar

Originally Posted by Byron Bluth

I feel like you guys are just talking out of your ass here. BioShock and Half Life 2 did it already and on the same console..

Elizabeth is not really a good example because she just dances around all over the place in every encounter.
H_Prestige
Banned
(01-12-2014, 03:54 PM)
I guess I should play this game? I wish Sony would put out a demo at least.
Diablos
Member
(01-12-2014, 03:56 PM)
Diablos's Avatar
Wow, that's really amazing. Props.
Vizzeh
Banned
(01-12-2014, 03:59 PM)

Originally Posted by Byron Bluth

I feel like you guys are just talking out of your ass here. BioShock and Half Life 2 did it already and on the same console.

The AI was broken for me, there were parts where Ellie would disappear but she would be talking and the 7.1 surround made it obvious she should have been right beside me (and I know there are parts of the game where she hangs back).

In the end, 2 years straight where games with shitty gameplay get GOTY because of a greats story. (The Walking Dead last year had poor "gameplay" and a lot of bugs).

Im not referring to Ellie specifically, I actually believe that was an intended mechanic, that part has been discussed at length and in theory is there so the player does not get frustrated by what would become an escort mission if Ellie were to be killed on sight. I still believe AI in general will only get better with the ps4.
Byron Bluth
Banned
(01-12-2014, 04:01 PM)

Originally Posted by Rodelero

Why should you have been able to play it on normal for a challenge? Is there some written rule that says that you, Byron Bluth, should find normal a challenge? Given what you said, you are apparently far more skilled playing games than the average Joe (congratulations), so naturally you should be trying to play on the hardest difficulty you can. You didn't.



I didn't make that argument. Please explain to me why games like Skyrim, XCOM, and The Walking Dead, which all have significantly more issues than TLOU, are so much more deserving.



Child.

I watched that IGN video and it's all there. Seriously? Personal attack?

I'm 28 years old with a wife and 2 children.
Neuromancer
The Mayuh of f'n Bawston
(01-12-2014, 04:02 PM)
Neuromancer's Avatar
More proof that TLoU is a populist pleasing dude bro action game with mostly mainstream appeal, like CoD:MW2 before it.

I know some here like to hold it up as art and proof of legitimizing gaming, but it's definitely more Michael Bay than Stanley Kubrick.

Gaming doesn't yet have its Citizen Kane but at least it has its Transformers.
Rodelero
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Byron Bluth

I watched that IGN video and it's all there. Seriously? Personal attack?

I'm 28 years old with a wife and 2 children.

I thought it was patently obvious why I said it. You're acting like a child. Making some evasive arguments and then dismissing me by saying "next"? Do you want to have a discussion, or to force your opinions on others without them having any recourse?
pharmboy044
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:08 PM)

Originally Posted by H_Prestige

I guess I should play this game? I wish Sony would put out a demo at least.

They might put out that demo that was accessible through GOW:A but not sure when.
SeanR1221
Banned
(01-12-2014, 04:13 PM)
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Easily one of the best games I've ever played. The Winter chapter is god tier.
Revolutionary
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by H_Prestige

I guess I should play this game? I wish Sony would put out a demo at least.

There was a demo. Unfortunately, you needed to buy God of War Ascension to play it. :p

Now that I think about it, I never did finish GoW. Just played the demo over and over, like the MGS2 demo packed with ZoE.
Bundy
Banned
(01-12-2014, 04:16 PM)

Originally Posted by SeanR1221

Easily one of the best games I've ever played. The Winter chapter is god tier.

This!
Can't forget it. Won't ever forget it.
So awesome! ^_^
blame space
King of Members with nice chair, nice beard, nice wall hooks, broken TV, clean phone, and a red username.
(01-12-2014, 04:17 PM)
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it got GOTY from cheat code central?
Cabal
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:20 PM)
Cabal's Avatar

Originally Posted by Bundy

THIS!

Game of the Generation!

One of the best games I've ever played!

It's your opinion of course, but I would have a hard time not giving that to some thing like Dark Souls or Mass Effect. Loved TLoU and I certainly think it deserves the acclaim, but game of the generation means that it faces so much more competition. I'm not entirely sure that it was the best game Naughty Dog made this gen, and that's no slight against the game or the dev.
EGM1966
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:25 PM)
EGM1966's Avatar

Originally Posted by Byron Bluth

I feel like you guys are just talking out of your ass here. BioShock and Half Life 2 did it already and on the same console.

The AI was broken for me, there were parts where Ellie would disappear but she would be talking and the 7.1 surround made it obvious she should have been right beside me (and I know there are parts of the game where she hangs back).

In the end, 2 years straight where games with shitty gameplay get GOTY because of a greats story. (The Walking Dead last year had poor "gameplay" and a lot of bugs).

You could be on to something with the bolded.

Personally, as a former coder, the AI in TLOU for Ellie in context is more challenging and interesting than that of Infinite or Half Life 2 (your examples).

Half Life 2 did a good job but deliberately made the problem simple. In HL2 there is no real stealth - it's all combat - and therefore Alyx AI only has to fight, be capable of simple navigation (often pre-set) and not block you. This meant Valve didn't have to consider how she'd behave if you're trying to sneak past foes or to a better position and it meant the encounter arenas could all be pre-set in nature.

In Infinite Elizabeth actually devloved from earlier reveals where she'd activly help you in many ways to a very simple AI - for example I'd argue Valve achieved more with Alyx and earlier too. She doesn't really fight and all she has to do is hide (often in poor places) and she is invisible to foes. She will offer minor and scripted help or can be directed to help but this doesn't even need companion AI - you might as well be conjuring the tears yourself as all you do is highlight a preset object and press a button, the context simply pretends Elizabeth is helping when she really isn't doing anything).

Ellie by comparison in TLOU is a much toughter challenge from a code perspective. She has to fight alongside you (using various mechanics across the narrative from bottles/bricks to finally having a weapon) but she also has to sneak and she has to perform in much more open encounter arenas that are far less pre-set than Half Life 2 or Infinite and react dynamically to what you chose to do not what he game designers have essentially forced on you.

As such Ellie will react far more interestingly in context that either Elizabeth or Alyx. She will attempt to hide (often badly just like Elizabeth which we'll return to in a moment), then switch dynamically to aid you if needed (which is pretty impressive as it's not just jumping up with a gun like Alyx but using situational objects to distract and harass your foes) - she'll solve puzzles with you (these are often pre-scripted but they also often involve a bit more than you see in Infinite or Half Life 2 as well) and she'll also engage with you verbally and with emotions.

TBH the AI code in TLOU is very impressive I'd argue and represents one of the more ambitious attempts I've seen in a game like this.

It's not perfect, but most of the time Ellie performs very well and has far more range in context than any AI in similar games and for sure more range in context than Alyx or Elizabeth.

The main flaw is the invisible to foes/stealth element IMHO - here the pathfinding combined with the context can fall over and Ellie will hide right next to foes, etc. However no game I've seen of this type (including Infinite which is very similar) has managed to do it any better and they fail as badly while also failing to have the AI do as much as Ellie in other situations.

To be fair to ND though I can't see any easy solution. Having AI get it right would be very complex and (at least on PS3/360) probably near impossible on their specs considering you still need computing resources for graphics, animation, enemy AI, etc. I guess ND could have simplified the situation (the solution in Bioshock) by simply having Ellie try and hide and do nothing dynamically at all during combat but then you'd lose the wonderful depth of having her weigh in to help you in non-scripted, dynamic ways.

Reading your post I really don't find merit in your arguments - you are stating stuff as facts but I really don't believe you're presenting any concrete evidence. Seems to me you've formed an opinion (which is fair enough) but you are throwing it out as being informed without providing the evidence it is so.

Unless it's kept simple and controlled companion AI will probably break down (in context) to a degree but in TLOU I don't see it do so any more than any other title and at the same time it mostly does more and better than other titles so overall in balance it represents an evolution and a step forward overall. Now I look forward to seeing further iterations work on the remaining flaws to minimize or even eliminate them.

You seem to have an axe to grind vs TLOU and I'd argue you are overstating your points and resorting to hyperbole (and borderline rudeness which I'd be careful of). TLOU isn't on a pedestal but on GAF you use arguments with context (i.e. made sure they back you up and aren't just bold statements) and you don't insult people even if only by inference. By all means point of flaws in TLOU (it has 'em) and express yourself but do so without appearing childish would be my advice.
Byron Bluth
Banned
(01-12-2014, 04:26 PM)

Originally Posted by Rodelero

I thought it was patently obvious why I said it. You're acting like a child. Making some evasive arguments and then dismissing me by saying "next"? Do you want to have a discussion, or to force your opinions on others without them having any recourse?

That IGN video has all the proof you need.

I played on Hard? Survivor is locked until you beat it, I should have played on the difficulty that isn't even available yet?

People are suckers for this type of story, just look at last year, The Walking Dead, similar type of story. People are dismissing gameplay issues because of story. And The Last of Us wasn't even the best as what it did.
Theecliff
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:28 PM)
Theecliff's Avatar

Originally Posted by Neuromancer

More proof that TLoU is a populist pleasing dude bro action game with mostly mainstream appeal, like CoD:MW2 before it.

I know some here like to hold it up as art and proof of legitimizing gaming, but it's definitely more Michael Bay than Stanley Kubrick.

Gaming doesn't yet have its Citizen Kane but at least it has its Transformers.

Byron Bluth
Banned
(01-12-2014, 04:29 PM)

Originally Posted by EGM1966

You could be on to something with the bolded.

Personally, as a former coder, the AI in TLOU for Ellie in context is more challenging and interesting than that of Infinite or Half Life 2 (your examples).

Half Life 2 did a good job but deliberately made the problem simple. In HL2 there is no real stealth - it's all combat - and therefore Alyx AI only has to fight, be capable of simple navigation (often pre-set) and not block you. This meant Valve didn't have to consider how she'd behave if you're trying to sneak past foes or to a better position and it meant the encounter arenas could all be pre-set in nature.

In Infinite Elizabeth actually devloved from earlier reveals where she'd activly help you in many ways to a very simple AI - for example I'd argue Valve achieved more with Alyx and earlier too. She doesn't really fight and all she has to do is hide (often in poor places) and she is invisible to foes. She will offer minor and scripted help or can be directed to help but this doesn't even need companion AI - you might as well be conjuring the tears yourself as all you do is highlight a preset object and press a button, the context simply pretends Elizabeth is helping when she really isn't doing anything).

Ellie by comparison in TLOU is a much toughter challenge from a code perspective. She has to fight alongside you (using various mechanics across the narrative from bottles/bricks to finally having a weapon) but she also has to sneak and she has to perform in much more open encounter arenas that are far less pre-set than Half Life 2 or Infinite and react dynamically to what you chose to do not what he game designers have essentially forced on you.

As such Ellie will react far more interestingly in context that either Elizabeth or Alyx. She will attempt to hide (often badly just like Elizabeth which we'll return to in a moment), then switch dynamically to aid you if needed (which is pretty impressive as it's not just jumping up with a gun like Alyx but using situational objects to distract and harass your foes) - she'll solve puzzles with you (these are often pre-scripted but they also often involve a bit more than you see in Infinite or Half Life 2 as well) and she'll also engage with you verbally and with emotions.

TBH the AI code in TLOU is very impressive I'd argue and represents one of the more ambitious attempts I've seen in a game like this.

It's not perfect, but most of the time Ellie performs very well and has far more range in context than any AI in similar games and for sure more range in context than Alyx or Elizabeth.

The main flaw is the invisible to foes/stealth element IMHO - here the pathfinding combined with the context can fall over and Ellie will hide right next to foes, etc. However no game I've seen of this type (including Infinite which is very similar) has managed to do it any better and they fail as badly while also failing to have the AI do as much as Ellie in other situations.

To be fair to ND though I can't see any easy solution. Having AI get it right would be very complex and (at least on PS3/360) probably near impossible on their specs considering you still need computing resources for graphics, animation, enemy AI, etc. I guess ND could have simplified the situation (the solution in Bioshock) by simply having Ellie try and hide and do nothing dynamically at all during combat but then you'd lose the wonderful depth of having her weigh in to help you in non-scripted, dynamic ways.

Reading your post I really don't find merit in your arguments - you are stating stuff as facts but I really don't believe you're presenting any concrete evidence. Seems to me you've formed an opinion (which is fair enough) but you are throwing it out as being informed without providing the evidence it is so.

Unless it's kept simple and controlled companion AI will probably break down (in context) to a degree but in TLOU I don't see it do so any more than any other title and at the same time it mostly does more and better than other titles so overall in balance it represents an evolution and a step forward overall. Now I look forward to seeing further iterations work on the remaining flaws to minimize or even eliminate them.

You seem to have an axe to grind vs TLOU and I'd argue you are overstating your points and resorting to hyperbole (and borderline rudeness which I'd be careful of). TLOU isn't on a pedestal but on GAF you use arguments with context (i.e. made sure they back you up and aren't just bold statements) and you don't insult people even if only by inference. By all means point of flaws in TLOU (it has 'em) and express yourself but do so without appearing childish would be my advice.

But Ellie pretends to hide, and while she is hiding humans or clickers can visibly clip into her, there's no AI code to actually have her stealth, just animation and enemy AI is coded to ignore her.
Ishida
Banned
(01-12-2014, 04:36 PM)

Originally Posted by Byron Bluth

People believing this is the first good story in games.

Talk about pulling shit out of your ass. Can you quote those people?
Byron Bluth
Banned
(01-12-2014, 04:42 PM)

Originally Posted by daviyoung

Elizabeth is not really a good example because she just dances around all over the place in every encounter.

Originally Posted by Ishida

Talk about pulling shit out of your ass. Can you quote those people?

Like I said before and most people ignored watch the IGN video posted.

They specifically say that and that it's mechanics are not the best this year but the story makes up for it. Obviously paraphrasing, I'm not like you guys and am not transcribing video for proof.

Here's a good article that shows the whole "first good story, mature theme, etc".
http://www.gamesradar.com/why-last-u...on-game-story/

They even make the argument it's not the best story but the best because it mature and it's themes?

Once again, Grim Fandango had themes just as mature, if not more so. 16 years ago.

There is no short supply of these articles, many written after they gave GOTY to TLoU.

The constant oh look short walls for cover! Oh look the easily noticeable sneaky path around the clickers. Made it feel like Gears of War fatigue syndrome where you always knew what was going to happen because the level design was easily visible.
EGM1966
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Byron Bluth

But Ellie pretends to hide, and while she is hiding humans or clickers can visibly clip into her, there's no AI code to actually have her stealth, just animation and enemy AI is coded to ignore her.

No the AI code in TLOU attempts to hide - it's not just Ellie it's all companions. If you are undetected (which happens frequently) then the companion AI in TLOU will hide - it will use exact same mechanic as you and use the environment. It also does so dynamically - i.e. if you move the AI will attempt to move the compaion sensibly too. Often in TLOU it works well and the effect is actually very good - for example in some of the earlier encounters with Tess play out very well to create the effect of you and your companion sneaking up on your foes and getting into favourable positions before engaging them.

Infinite totally lacks this complexity as does HL2. Where it fails in TLOU is that - due to the huge variability of which cover you chose, when you chose to move and how far you chose to move - the code for the AI companion fails to balance responding to you with responding to the enemy AI and you effectively "force" your companion to hide next to a foe or run right past them (which is clearly a flaw). Again though I'd note HL2 and Infinite don't even attempt this at all - they make sure you are always in open combat for the most part and the companion AI does not need to attempt (as it does in TLOU) to handle complex stealth while also keeping out of your way, relinquishing cover to you, etc.

Even during combat TLOU is more complex. In Infinite for example Elizabeth merely pretends to hide and it often goes wrong (in a similar manner to TLOU) with the AI hiding right next to foes who ignore it or running right past them. Elizabeth however will not aid you with the complexity of companion AI in TLOU and she has very limited options during combat (early videos show much more complexity which was clearly totally dropped whereas ND at least tried to solve the challenge and they mostly did too).

The element which makes the failure seem more obvious in TLOU is actually the POV. In Infinite and HL2 you are in a first person view and therefore you "see" much less of the combat arena at any one time and often your companions are not even visible. For example in Infinite the POV means during combat you often lose track of Elizabeth and don't spot she's breaking immersion just as much as Ellie or the other AI companions in TLOU because it's off screen. In TLOU due to the third person viewpoint you see a much broader view and therefore notice more where the companions are relative to you (Joel) and therefore you spot the AI failure more easily. This isn't a failure of the AI code though so much as the fact it's actually far harder in TLOU to hide the failure.
Lasthope106
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Byron Bluth

Like I said before and most people ignored watch the IGN video posted.

They specifically say that and that it's mechanics are not the best this year but the story makes up for it. Obviously paraphrasing, I'm not like you guys and am not transcribing video for proof.

Here's a good article that shows the whole "first good story, mature theme, etc".
http://www.gamesradar.com/why-last-u...on-game-story/

They even make the argument it's not the best story but the best because it mature and it's themes?

Once again, Grim Fandango had themes just as mature, if not more so. 16 years ago.

There is no short supply of these articles, many written after they gave GOTY to TLoU.

The constant oh look short walls for cover! Oh look the easily noticeable sneaky path around the clickers. Made it feel like Gears of War fatigue syndrome where you always knew what was going to happen because the level design was easily visible.

I felt the same way when I watched the IGN video. A lot of those people were making statements as if the game was the first to accomplish a lot of things others games have done better in the past.
Sean*O
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:50 PM)
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PS4 incoming in 3... 2... 1...
Byron Bluth
Banned
(01-12-2014, 04:51 PM)

Originally Posted by EGM1966

No the AI code in TLOU attempts to hide - it's not just Ellie it's all companions. If you are undetected (which happens frequently) then the companion AI in TLOU will hide - it will use exact same mechanic as you and use the environment. It also does so dynamically - i.e. if you move the AI will attempt to move the compaion sensibly too. Often in TLOU it works well and the effect is actually very good - for example in some of the earlier encounters with Tess play out very well to create the effect of you and your companion sneaking up on your foes and getting into favourable positions before engaging them.

Infinite totally lacks this complexity as does HL2. Where it fails in TLOU is that - due to the huge variability of which cover you chose, when you chose to move and how far you chose to move - the code for the AI companion fails to balance responding to you with responding to the enemy AI and you effectively "force" your companion to hide next to a foe or run right past them (which is clearly a flaw). Again though I'd note HL2 and Infinite don't even attempt this at all - they make sure you are always in open combat for the most part and the companion AI does not need to attempt (as it does in TLOU) to handle complex stealth while also keeping out of your way, relinquishing cover to you, etc.

Even during combat TLOU is more complex. In Infinite for example Elizabeth merely pretends to hide and it often goes wrong (in a similar manner to TLOU) with the AI hiding right next to foes who ignore it or running right past them. Elizabeth however will not aid you with the complexity of companion AI in TLOU and she has very limited options during combat (early videos show much more complexity which was clearly totally dropped whereas ND at least tried to solve the challenge and they mostly did too).

The element which makes the failure seem more obvious in TLOU is actually the POV. In Infinite and HL2 you are in a first person view and therefore you "see" much less of the combat arena at any one time and often your companions are not even visible. For example in Infinite the POV means during combat you often lose track of Elizabeth and don't spot she's breaking immersion just as much as Ellie or the other AI companions in TLOU because it's off screen. In TLOU due to the third person viewpoint you see a much broader view and therefore notice more where the companions are relative to you (Joel) and therefore you spot the AI failure more easily. This isn't a failure of the AI code though so much as the fact it's actually far harder in TLOU to hide the failure.

AI clipping into enemies that they are "stealth" avoiding is awful. I'd rather have them not be around, it broke immersion all the time and it happened constantly. I get it is actually trying to use stealth, but what is the point when it breaks immersion? Having Elizabeth hang back was more realistic than her clipping through enemies and them not attacking her.
Mikey Jr.
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:55 PM)
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As soon as I finished it, I knew it was going to get GOTY, but didn't expect that many....

This game will stick with me for a LONG time. Thats how much of an impact it left on me.
Castle Doctrine
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:56 PM)
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ND thought topping Uncharted 2 was hard, now forget it. They may as well pack it up.
Cabal
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Byron Bluth

But Ellie pretends to hide, and while she is hiding humans or clickers can visibly clip into her, there's no AI code to actually have her stealth, just animation and enemy AI is coded to ignore her.

He addressed some of that in his post. I don't think anyone is saying its perfect, but it is better than the examples you provided. Elizabeth doesn't do much of anything in Bioshock and if you are going to knock TLoU for AI ignoring Ellie then you should probably note that enemies ignore Elizabeth as well. Alyx from Half Life is AI akin to any shooter, it's not quite the same because it's all shooting.

Personally I think the game is probably better for not having Ellie spotted by enemies as certain sequences might have been damn near unplayable. I could see maybe implement like a "squad order" system but then that may have changed the mechanics of the game too much.
ReplacementPelican
Member
(01-12-2014, 04:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by Byron Bluth

I feel like you guys are just talking out of your ass here. BioShock and Half Life 2 did it already and on the same console.

The AI was broken for me, there were parts where Ellie would disappear but she would be talking and the 7.1 surround made it obvious she should have been right beside me (and I know there are parts of the game where she hangs back).

In the end, 2 years straight where games with shitty gameplay get GOTY because of a greats story. (The Walking Dead last year had poor "gameplay" and a lot of bugs).

'I feel like you guys are just talking out of your ass here'

The gameplay in TLOU is nowhere near 'shitty' and cannot even be compared to a Telltale game.
rexor0717
Member
(01-12-2014, 05:01 PM)
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That is very impressive. Wasn't a fan of the game myself, but I do recognize that is a quality game.
kinggroin
Banned
(01-12-2014, 05:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Neuromancer

More proof that TLoU is a populist pleasing dude bro action game with mostly mainstream appeal, like CoD:MW2 before it.

I know some here like to hold it up as art and proof of legitimizing gaming, but it's definitely more Michael Bay than Stanley Kubrick.

Gaming doesn't yet have its Citizen Kane but at least it has its Transformers.

Was waiting for the thread to get started.
Shinta
Banned
(01-12-2014, 05:05 PM)

Originally Posted by NathanCX

'The gameplay in TLOU is nowhere near 'shitty' and cannot even be compared to a Telltale game.

I wouldn't compare it to a Telltale game either. But I do think the gameplay is actually quite poor.

I was writing up a post to the other thread that just got closed about why I personally think it has poor gameplay, but it got locked. Since it seems kinda on topic here, I'll post it. Maybe someone out there agrees with me.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the gameplay in The Last of Us is pretty terrible, so I can give you my reasons at least.

1) The stealth is more basic than Tenchu Z. You basically just crouch and creep around, and the game puts more focus on sound detection. Despite that, jumping over cover spots, dropping down from elevated areas don't seem to make any additional noise. The stealth takedowns are very basic, and mostly are just a rear choke-hold.

2) The enemies are very poorly designed.

Clickers are horribly designed for the gameplay systems in place. Clickers are blind, and they are difficult to fight in open combat. So your main strategy is to focus on stealth. However, with no sight capabilities, this means that all you have to do is just walk slow and you will never have any trouble from a clicker. The main way to take them down with stealth hits is to use a shiv. However, killing a clicker doesn't reward you with anything as far as I remember, xp or ammo wise. So the rational choice every single time is to simply walk past the clickers and not burn your shivs, because they are limited, and they're used to open locked doors or for your emergency melee counters.

So, every time I saw clickers, instead of feeling anything like fear or heightened tension, I instead knew that it meant that I simply had to walk slowly for a long time. Every time I saw a large area with clickers, I would of course still have to explore everything for items and materials I could scavenge. Only now I had to explore it in slow motion. Every time I got to an area like that, it was so mind numbing that I wanted to turn off the game. I don't enjoy 30 minutes of just walking slowly and not doing anything else. And the entire game's storyline was hanging on the clickers, and how well they worked. These are the key element of their version of the apocalypse; these are their new zombies. I wasn't sold on it at all.

Clickers also bother me because once they're alerted, they fucking sprint at you at an unbelievable speed and instantly one hit kill you. And in addition to that, this game makes sure that you bob and weave when aiming, so you're not likely to ever routinely defend yourself from a clicker attack. And you can't run because that screws up your aiming even more, even though the enemies are exceptionally mobile and fast.

A better example of how to make enemies scary, unique, and make them work well with the gameplay systems you have is Resident Evil 4. By comparing clickers to the many, many enemies in RE4, it becomes a lot easier to see how inferior TLoU really is. Look at the chainsaw guys. Their sound effects were a lot more terrifying to me than the clickers were. Both developers wanted you to know these guys were there to drum up the fear, so RE4 had the constant humming of the chainsaw rumbling behind you getting louder and louder, as well as the guy's high pitched screams and wails. TLoU had ... clicking. Yes, it makes sense for sonar detection, but it's not scary. The chainsaw guys also could one hit kill you, and that was the main reason people were scared of them. But, the chainsaw guys were slower than you, and their aim was not perfect. Even with these limitations on their killing ability, they were still terrifying, and still managed to one shot you many times in the game, but they actually made the gameplay systems work. You could stop and aim and get some shots in because they were slower than you, but at some point they would just barrel right through you regardless. TLoU has enemies just sprint right at you and instant kill you, which doesn't enhance the gameplay, it just leads you to a retry screen. Or look at the Regenerators in RE4. These guys were even slower, and could absolutely be outrun if the player wanted to run away. However, they were perfectly designed to enhance a gameplay system that wanted you to stop and aim carefully. You used your thermal sniper rifle scope to find their weak spots and hit them, or else they were invincible. And despite this, they were still completely terrifying. But they managed to make the gameplay better, and make the stop and aim system work better, instead of creating contradictory designs that just lead to a restart screen. And RE has tons more enemies like this, like the blind wolverine with claws that relies on sound (much like the clickers, but still better, and they have you manipulating sound in the environments during gameplay, hitting weak spots on his back, and he can still one hit kill you but not every time, and his aim isn't perfect because he's fucking blind).

Where RE4 had tons and tons of enemies and bosses that worked flawlessly, TLoU had one enemy to get right, and they totally, completely blew it.

Perhaps the only enemy worse than that is the "newly turned," which just literally sit there and do nothing, waiting to be killed. That's possibly the most pointless enemy of this entire generation.

3) The first 4 hours of the game might as well have been a cutscene, because you basically just followed an NPC down a narrow road and watched cutscenes. I love FFXIII, and TLoU's intro was so scripted and linear that even I felt suffocated.

4) There is very little verticality allowed in the stealth, or the level design. In one of the first missions I was with Tess going to get the guns from the guy who double crossed them. They showed that we were sneaking into a large area and were greatly outnumbered. There were gigantic metal shipping crates stacked all over, with smaller wooden crates next to them making natural stairs. Being a stealth focused game (and a Naughty Dog game) I naturally assumed you could at least do limited platforming to climb a couple boxes and get a better perspective to see the enemy patterns, but you can't at all. Instead of having level design that helps make stealth gameplay organic, they instead had to add x-ray vision for Joel.

5) The partner AI ruins the game's main strength, presentation and immersion. Everyone is aware of this one. You're sneaking around a clicker and Ellie just goes barreling right past them, jumping and talking to you full volume and no one notices. You remember how frustrating I said it was to be forced to walk slowly for 30 minutes? It's even worse when Ellie is able to just run all over and you have to watch.

6) It's a game about two people and the 2nd person is basically non-existent as far as gameplay systems design is concerned. RE4 has you protecting Ashley from damage, sneaking around as Ashley, strategically hiding her in dumpsters instead of making her invisible and invincible. TLoU basically just doesn't even try to make this work.

7) The game's "puzzles" and platforming were very bad. Moving around crates and dumpsters felt like a Dreamcast-era box puzzle, something I thought was officially gone from gaming in 2013, let alone a big budget game like this. Moving planks around was equally cumbersome and simplistic. Moving Ellie on a raft is basically another box puzzle, but with water physics added (barely). People trash the tombs in Tomb Raider, but TLoU makes them look like master class puzzles.

8) The crafting system being real time doesn't really add much to the gameplay in my opinion, and it doesn't make as much of a difference as the earlier trailers made it seem like it would. If some of you guys liked it, cool. I really didn't think it added anything.

9) The game has very, very weak level up abilities that don't add a lot to gameplay, and can probably be skipped if you want. The counter is probably the best one.

10) I didn't like the handling and the feel of the bow. It might be because Tomb Raider came out in the very same year, and they're kind of similar games. But the handling and feel of the bow in TR was just so much better.

11) For a game focusing on story and presentation over gameplay, I thought it was a really weird decision to have such trial and error gameplay that demanded frequent restarts. It took me out of the experience that they tried so hard to prioritize. Just broadly speaking, the gameplay systems don't really further the telling of the story, or the immersion for me. It's a very, very limited trial and error stealth TPS chopped up and grafted onto a story.

And I didn't think the story was strong enough to carry the poor gameplay. The intro was supposed to be the watershed moment, when his child dies. But I didn't see why this was better than the intro in Splinter Cell Conviction, or the intro in Mass Effect 3, which people criticized heavily. It's the same weak story hook. A little kid dies, and we only care for the sole reason that its a little kid and that is supposed to be shocking. In Mass Effect 3 I remember laughing at how obvious and transparent the attempt to force emotional content was, and it was a very similar intro for TLoU. We know nothing about this girl, and yet her death is the driving force for the entire story? The intro's only real gameplay was walking around in the house, suspecting a break in or something gone wrong. I thought that this was also extremely similar to the intro to Splinter Cell Conviction, with Sam protecting his daughter from a home burglary attempt. At least in that game, they use that as not just a story intro, but a tutorial to set up the Mark and Execute system, while TLoU feels content with not letting the gameplay start for hours.

Then shortly after that, you have to go "get your guns back" with Tess. Okay, what are the guns for? They never say. Why is it worth it to take on a suicide mission escorting Ellie for "guns" when they have guns already? They never say. Literally the entire story is hanging on their desire to get these guns. Tess dies because she wants these guns. For a game focusing so much on story, I don't think it even really has a great one.

I can probably think of some more, but that's just off the top of my head.

I can definitely admit it's a gorgeous game, and well made in some ways. But I wouldn't ever rate it as GOTY, and when people do, it makes me a little sad because the game doesn't do much to actually further gameplay in any way, and is far behind RE4, which came out in 2005, in terms of actual gameplay and was one of the first highly influential TPS/stealth/horror games on consoles. The gameplay isn't even better than Tomb Raider.
EGM1966
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(01-12-2014, 05:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Byron Bluth

AI clipping into enemies that they are "stealth" avoiding is awful. I'd rather have them not be around, it broke immersion all the time and it happened constantly. I get it is actually trying to use stealth, but what is the point when it breaks immersion? Having Elizabeth hang back was more realistic than her clipping through enemies and them not attacking her.

In my playthorough of Infinite Elizabeth "broke" immersion pretty much as much as Ellie - she hid badly, she clipped through enemies and she was obviously invisible to them (for example she'd be hidding with an emeny on the other side of the cover firing right past her at me.

Neither game is perfect, one pushed the envelope more, TLOU, and while I get your point all you're saying is the game as designed doesn't suit you. Advancement happens in stages and rarely is it perfect - we won't get better AI if developers like ND don't try and solve these complex problems. Don't forget Infinite developers took the easy way out - the simply avoided the problem in the end and didn't progress anything. The companion AI in TLOU is a step forward flawed as it is and I'd rather that than everyone ducking the issue and resorting to simple "cheats" in the manner of Infinite which renders Elizabeth magically invisible and indesstructible - after all let's not forget another complexlity in TLOU, your companions aren't invincible either and you might have to dynamically respond to getting them out of trouble (or even have them help you get out of trouble).

Elizabeth arguably is a constant immersion breaker because she's effectively "not there" except to react on cue to certain reactions.

I guess if you prefer a dev keep it simple and cheat to try and prevent issues then sure Infinite represents the better approach - but that's just a personal preference and doesn't mean the other approach is wrong or a failure. I prefer what ND did in TLOU which was to try and minimize "cheating" as much as possible and have far more dynamic and realistic companion AI - that's my view which is no more valid either of course.

What I can say with conviction though is the AI code and routines in TLOU is factually more complex - it handles far, far more scenarios and has to do so far more dynamically than other games (certainly it far exceeds the companion AI complexity in Infinite and HL2). As a result it is factually a step forward warts and all and shouldn't be seen as being inferior to other titles because as code it's not - you just might not like the end result context.
jaded_up_
Banned
(01-12-2014, 05:09 PM)

Originally Posted by Neuromancer

More proof that TLoU is a populist pleasing dude bro action game with mostly mainstream appeal, like CoD:MW2 before it.

I know some here like to hold it up as art and proof of legitimizing gaming, but it's definitely more Michael Bay than Stanley Kubrick.

Gaming doesn't yet have its Citizen Kane but at least it has its Transformers.

lmfao
ReplacementPelican
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(01-12-2014, 05:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Neuromancer

More proof that TLoU is a populist pleasing dude bro action game with mostly mainstream appeal, like CoD:MW2 before it.

I know some here like to hold it up as art and proof of legitimizing gaming, but it's definitely more Michael Bay than Stanley Kubrick.

Gaming doesn't yet have its Citizen Kane but at least it has its Transformers.

Are you such a pretentious, insufferable hipster that the mere mass love of an entertainment product means it is inherently somehow worse? Are you better than everyone who likes this game? Are they all idiots who think Battleship is the best film ever made but you, in your infinite wisdom sit around watching Once Upon a Time in the West and Metropolis?

Be upset if you want about how this doesn't legitimize gaming in your eyes but your post is utter rubbish, comparing the film to Transformers, Jesus Christ.
Ouroboros
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(01-12-2014, 05:12 PM)
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Played Infinite and loved it. Currently playing TLoU and really don't see how this game got game of the year. Its good, yes. Graphics are stellar, story is so so as of right now...but that gameplay...ugh I just don't enjoy it.

At this point I'm just going through the game for the story. I want to see this 'emotional ending' everyone is claiming.
EGM1966
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(01-12-2014, 05:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cabal

He addressed some of that in his post. I don't think anyone is saying its perfect, but it is better than the examples you provided. Elizabeth doesn't do much of anything in Bioshock and if you are going to knock TLoU for AI ignoring Ellie then you should probably note that enemies ignore Elizabeth as well. Alyx from Half Life is AI akin to any shooter, it's not quite the same because it's all shooting.

Personally I think the game is probably better for not having Ellie spotted by enemies as certain sequences might have been damn near unplayable. I could see maybe implement like a "squad order" system but then that may have changed the mechanics of the game too much.

I did wonder if ND considered that. ME used it of course (as does other games) and it would be the obvious way to bridge the challenge of having you be in charge vs companions (as most players want to decide how to engage in an encounter not have companions merrily decide how to engage) while also allowing for multiple, complex scenarios to dynamically evolve.

In the end I think they didn't as it would change the balance of the mechanics and could be tricky to keep real time (and they clearly wanted the game to be real time with no pausing to craft or make decisions).

I figure though it could have helped if you could "set" some basic configurations - maybe tell the AI to stay back. Again though I guess the issue would be most players would likely opt to keep AI at rear and away from battlefield totally whereas ND - from a character perspective - wanted Tess, Ellie, etc. to be clearly "with you" and active. Helping save you, fighting, hiding, etc.

Again there's no easy answer and I think ND did about the best they could given the complexity of the challenge they took on and how far ahead of what most games have attempted with real time engagement so far they were aiming. I'd very much like to see how they could improve the IP they have here if they elect to develop a game with companions similar to TLOU.
PuppetMaster
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(01-12-2014, 05:14 PM)
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Thats a hell of a lot of sites I have never heard of.

But good for TLoU!
Remachinate
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(01-12-2014, 05:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Shinta

Excellent, well-explained post

Thanks very much for that. It illustrates a lot of the game's mechanical problems that turn much of the gameplay into a chore keeping the player from the next cutscene. It drives me up the wall that a game with high production values in its cinematic segments, and an admittedly good story for a video game, but a mediocre ludic experience, is so widely considered an exemplary achievement of the form.
The Lamp
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(01-12-2014, 05:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Neuromancer

More proof that TLoU is a populist pleasing dude bro action game with mostly mainstream appeal, like CoD:MW2 before it.

I know some here like to hold it up as art and proof of legitimizing gaming, but it's definitely more Michael Bay than Stanley Kubrick.

Gaming doesn't yet have its Citizen Kane but at least it has its Transformers.

I swear I've seen this exact post in another thread.
Lion Heart
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(01-12-2014, 05:22 PM)
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Well deserved, easily the best game of its type this year. It's the RE4 of the generation much to the dismay of the many playstation haters on this forum.
Amir0x
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(01-12-2014, 05:22 PM)
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It's about to add NeoGAF to that list :P
Kade
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(01-12-2014, 05:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by NathanCX

Are you such a pretentious, insufferable hipster that the mere mass love of an entertainment product means it is inherently somehow worse? Are you better than everyone who likes this game? Are they all idiots who think Battleship is the best film ever made but you, in your infinite wisdom sit around watching Once Upon a Time in the West and Metropolis?

Be upset if you want about how this doesn't legitimize gaming in your eyes but your post is utter rubbish, comparing the film to Transformers, Jesus Christ.

You've been had.
Uno Venova
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(01-12-2014, 05:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Shinta


Then shortly after that, you have to go "get your guns back" with Tess. Okay, what are the guns for? They never say. Why is it worth it to take on a suicide mission escorting Ellie for "guns" when they have guns already? They never say. Literally the entire story is hanging on their desire to get these guns. Tess dies because she wants these guns. For a game focusing so much on story, I don't think it even really has a great one.

I can probably think of some more, but that's just off the top of my head.

I can definitely admit it's a gorgeous game, and well made in some ways. But I wouldn't ever rate it as GOTY, and when people do, it makes me a little sad because the game doesn't do much to actually further gameplay in any way, and is far behind RE4, which came out in 2005, in terms of actual gameplay and was one of the first highly influential TPS/stealth/horror games on consoles. The gameplay isn't even better than Tomb Raider.

I don't agree with most of your points but I still appreciate good, level headed posts. On this point though, Tess did not die for those guns, once she sees Ellie is actually immune to the infection by comparing her bite to Ellie's she dies because she thinks humanity actually has a chance. They also never thought their mission would be deadly, just a simple cargo delivery.


Originally Posted by The Lamp

I swear I've seen this exact post in another thread.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthre...9#post96275569
Ryuelli
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(01-12-2014, 05:27 PM)
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That's insane, is it some kind of record? I don't think I've ever seen a game sweep this many GOTY awards. It wasn't my personal GOTY, but it's by no means bad. Nice going Naughty Dog.
Theecliff
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(01-12-2014, 05:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by NathanCX

Are you such a pretentious, insufferable hipster that the mere mass love of an entertainment product means it is inherently somehow worse? Are you better than everyone who likes this game? Are they all idiots who think Battleship is the best film ever made but you, in your infinite wisdom sit around watching Once Upon a Time in the West and Metropolis?

Be upset if you want about how this doesn't legitimize gaming in your eyes but your post is utter rubbish, comparing the film to Transformers, Jesus Christ.

Neuromancer was joking. He's basically copied a post from another thread.
Vooduu
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(01-12-2014, 05:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Shinta

I wouldn't compare it to a Telltale game either. But I do think the gameplay is actually quite poor.

I was writing up a post to the other thread that just got closed about why I personally think it has poor gameplay, but it got locked. Since it seems kinda on topic here, I'll post it. Maybe someone out there agrees with me.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the gameplay in The Last of Us is pretty terrible, so I can give you my reasons at least.

1) You basically just crouch and creep around, and the game puts more focus on sound detection. Despite that, jumping over cover spots, dropping down from elevated areas don't seem to make any additional noise. The stealth takedowns are very basic, and mostly are just a rear choke-hold.

The game is about survival at its core. How many different take downs do you want? Have you played the game on survival? I can't even take steps near a clicker without it trying to kill me.


2) The enemies are very poorly designed.

Clickers are horribly designed for the gameplay systems in place. Clickers are blind, and they are difficult to fight in open combat. So your main strategy is to focus on stealth. However, with no sight capabilities, this means that all you have to do is just walk slow and you will never have any trouble from a clicker. The main way to take them down with stealth hits is to use a shiv. However, killing a clicker doesn't reward you with anything as far as I remember, xp or ammo wise. So the rational choice every single time is to simply walk past the clickers and not burn your shivs, because they are limited, and they're used to open locked doors or for your emergency melee counters.

Midway through your paragraph, one should ask, isn't that the point?

So, every time I saw clickers, instead of feeling anything like fear or heightened tension, I instead knew that it meant that I simply had to walk slowly for a long time. Every time I saw a large area with clickers, I would of course still have to explore everything for items and materials I could scavenge.

Again, survivor mode poses a better challenge.

Only now I had to explore it in slow motion. Every time I got to an area like that, it was so mind numbing that I wanted to turn off the game. I don't enjoy 30 minutes of just walking slowly and not doing anything else. And the entire game's storyline was hanging on the clickers, and how well they worked.

You're trolling right?

These are the key element of their version of the apocalypse; these are their new zombies. I wasn't sold on it at all.

Clickers also bother me because once they're alerted, they fucking sprint at you at an unbelievable speed and instantly one hit kill you. And in addition to that, this game makes sure that you bob and weave when aiming, so you're not likely to ever routinely defend yourself from a clicker attack. And you can't run because that screws up your aiming even more, even though the enemies are exceptionally mobile and fast.


lol wut? You claim that the gameplay is too boring and essentially repetitive because of the clickers yet you complain when they actually pose a challenge?

A better example of how to make enemies scary, unique, and make them work well with the gameplay systems you have is Resident Evil 4.



Where RE4 had tons and tons of enemies and bosses that worked flawlessly, TLoU had one enemy to get right, and they totally, completely blew it.

As to the entry's fourth title compared to a new IP by ND? Clickers are no where as bland or bad as you make it seem.

Perhaps the only enemy worse than that is the "newly turned," which just literally sit there and do nothing, waiting to be killed. That's possibly the most pointless enemy of this entire generation.

3) The first 4 hours of the game might as well have been a cutscene, because you basically just followed an NPC down a narrow road and watched cutscenes. I love FFXIII, and TLoU's intro was so scripted and linear that even I felt suffocated.

Troll

4) There is very little verticality allowed in the stealth, or the level design. In one of the first missions I was with Tess going to get the guns from the guy who double crossed them. They showed that we were sneaking into a large area and were greatly outnumbered. There were gigantic metal shipping crates stacked all over, with smaller wooden crates next to them making natural stairs. Being a stealth focused game (and a Naughty Dog game) I naturally assumed you could at least do limited platforming to climb a couple boxes and get a better perspective to see the enemy patterns, but you can't at all. Instead of having level design that helps make stealth gameplay organic, they instead had to add x-ray vision for Joel.

Here I can agree with you to a certain element but at that stage, how easy would it be to see someway cat walking across boxes? We notice birds in the sky quite easily, a 6 foot guy would be pretty easy to spot. Plus that area worked as a tutorial in some ways.

5) The partner AI ruins the game's main strength, presentation and immersion. Everyone is aware of this one. You're sneaking around a clicker and Ellie just goes barreling right past them, jumping and talking to you full volume and no one notices. You remember how frustrating I said it was to be forced to walk slowly for 30 minutes? It's even worse when Ellie is able to just run all over and you have to watch.

I agree.

6) It's a game about two people and the 2nd person is basically non-existent as far as gameplay systems design is concerned. RE4 has you protecting Ashley from damage, sneaking around as Ashley, strategically hiding her in dumpsters instead of making her invisible and invincible. TLoU basically just doesn't even try to make this work.

I agree but to a certain extent.

7) The game's "puzzles" and platforming were very bad. Moving around crates and dumpsters felt like a Dreamcast-era box puzzle, something I thought was officially gone from gaming in 2013, let alone a big budget game like this. Moving planks around was equally cumbersome and simplistic. Moving Ellie on a raft is basically another box puzzle, but with water physics added (barely). People trash the tombs in Tomb Raider, but TLoU makes them look like master class puzzles.

Platforming could be better but puzzles? What game is this again? It's obvious they don't want Nathan Drake and Ellie.

8) The crafting system being real time doesn't really add much to the gameplay in my opinion, and it doesn't make as much of a difference as the earlier trailers made it seem like it would. If some of you guys liked it, cool. I really didn't think it added anything.

Impromptu molotov helps

9) The game has very, very weak level up abilities that don't add a lot to gameplay, and can probably be skipped if you want. The counter is probably the best one.

Agreed.

10) I didn't like the handling and the feel of the bow. It might be because Tomb Raider came out in the very same year, and they're kind of similar games. But the handling and feel of the bow in TR was just so much better.

Worked just fine.

11) For a game focusing on story and presentation over gameplay, I thought it was a really weird decision to have such trial and error gameplay that demanded frequent restarts. It took me out of the experience that they tried so hard to prioritize. Just broadly speaking, the gameplay systems don't really further the telling of the story, or the immersion for me. It's a very, very limited trial and error stealth TPS chopped up and grafted onto a story.

What if they did the opposite? There would be absolutely no challenge. Might as well be the Walking Dead.

And I didn't think the story was strong enough to carry the poor gameplay. The intro was supposed to be the watershed moment, when his child dies. But I didn't see why this was better than the intro in Splinter Cell Conviction, or the intro in Mass Effect 3, which people criticized heavily. It's the same weak story hook. A little kid dies, and we only care for the sole reason that its a little kid and that is supposed to be shocking. In Mass Effect 3 I remember laughing at how obvious and transparent the attempt to force emotional content was, and it was a very similar intro for TLoU. We know nothing about this girl, and yet her death is the driving force for the entire story?

You have your own flesh and blood die in your arms because the person who could've helped feared you? You didn't have aliens or somebody kill this unknown child. You had a soldier, a once protector of your country, kill your daughter.

Then shortly after that, you have to go "get your guns back" with Tess. Okay, what are the guns for? They never say. Why is it worth it to take on a suicide mission escorting Ellie for "guns" when they have guns already? They never say. Literally the entire story is hanging on their desire to get these guns. Tess dies because she wants these guns. For a game focusing so much on story, I don't think it even really has a great one.

Wrong.

I can definitely admit it's a gorgeous game, and well made in some ways. But I wouldn't ever rate it as GOTY, and when people do, it makes me a little sad because the game doesn't do much to actually further gameplay in any way, and is far behind RE4, which came out in 2005, in terms of actual gameplay and was one of the first highly influential TPS/stealth/horror games on consoles. The gameplay isn't even better than Tomb Raider.

Yea but RE4 will little be forgotten because the franchise didn't even build upon the games after it. Tomb Raider wasn't survival, you were guns blazing the entire time. I don't mean to bash your opinion, just taking some of the stuff you said and analyzed it.

.
Hubb
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(01-12-2014, 05:30 PM)
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Congrats ND. That is all I am going to say on the matter because I can't keep posting the same shit in every TLoU thread.

Congrats ND.
SoraanTribal
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(01-12-2014, 05:30 PM)
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Shinta, I agree with a few of your points about The Last of Us. The initial fear of the clickers quickly subsided for me because I knew it just meant "ok, time to move slow for the next little bit." And there was really no point in killing them because I can't recall ever getting any items/ammo from them, so I might as well save my ammo/shivs. And I agree with your point about the NPCs breaking immersion while being stealthy, but that's discussed quite often - especially when the game first released. I understand why they did it (as to not annoy the player), but it would often take me out of the game when Bill was stomping around right next to a clicker saying "Be careful." or something, lol.

As a fan of stealth games (for the most part), I actually think I had more fun when the game focused you into situations where you couldn't stealth. Maybe it was just because the stealth in the game wasn't very satisfying. One thing I hated was how when you stealth killed an enemy right behind another one, it didn't hear you even though both Joel and the enemy made such loud noises during the process. It took me out of the game every time it happened.

I wish NaughtyDog would move away from the whole "move box/crate", "Give me a boost", "find a plank", "find something for Ellie to float on" types of... puzzles. I don't even want to call them puzzles because that would be way too nice. It's just filler gameplay that I can't imagine anyone would find fun or entertaining. It's also kind of ridiculous that Joel didn't teach Ellie how to swim the entire time she was with him, lol.

All that said, The Last of Us is still one of my favorite games this year (in my Top 10), but it wasn't really for the gameplay/stealth. It was more so for the story and characters. I don't think the gameplay is "bad", but it wasn't as perfect as some people claim. Despite TLOU being better than the Uncharted games in a few aspects of the gameplay (exploration in particular), I have no urge to replay it anytime soon. Oddly enough, I have played each Uncharted game several times - sometimes one after another. They were just more... "fun" to me. Maybe the lighthearted subject matter had something to do with that, though.
breakfuss
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(01-12-2014, 05:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lion Heart

much to the dismay of the many playstation haters on this forum.

but if I call you a fanboy for liking it, I'm banned...

anyway, put out the salt, ladies & gents! The #1 hater has arrived. :)

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