• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF

XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
(02-07-2014, 03:03 AM)
XiaNaphryz's Avatar
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...cal-from-bread

That footlong loaf baking in your local Subway’s oven could contain an ingredient called azodicarbonamide. It’s an additive the U.S. Food and Drug Administration permits for use in restricted amounts to strengthen dough and to increase the shelf life of bread, and as a bleaching ingredient in cereal flour—it also happens to be used in plastics and rubber. After a petition launched this week, the ubiquitous sandwich chain announced on Wednesday that it will stop using the additive, though it did not say when.

Azodicarbonamide—banned from use in food in Europe and Australia—is used in the U.S. in Subway’s 9-grain wheat bread, Italian bread, and sourdough bread. In Canada it’s in deli-style rolls and Italian bread. It can also be found in buns at other restaurant chains and in some grocery aisle breads.

Chatter about the use of the additive in food grew in 2011. This week, FoodBabe.com blogger Vani Hari started a petition asking Subway to remove azodicarbonamide from its breads; so far, Hari’s garnered more than 66,000 signatures. The company said it was working on reformulating the recipe before the petition was launched, reported the Associated Press.

Two suspicious chemicals form when bread with azodicarbonamide is baked, according to nonprofit advocacy group Center for Science in the Public Interest: urethane, a recognized carcinogen, and semicarbazide, which causes cancers of the lung and blood vessels in mice, but poses a negligible risk to humans. In a statement on Tuesday, the organization urged the FDA to consider banning the ingredient.

In its industrial form for use in plastic and rubber, azodicarbonamide is associated with asthma and other allergic reactions.


“We are already in the process of removing azodicarbonamide as part of our bread improvement efforts despite the fact that it is a USDA and FDA approved ingredient. The complete conversion to have this product out of the bread will be done soon,” Subway said in an e-mailed statement.

Mmmm...rubber!

Ermc_G6
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:05 AM)
Ermc_G6's Avatar
That's why I'm always a bit worried when places say things like: "Made with REAL cheese!"
BertramCooper
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:05 AM)
BertramCooper's Avatar
Subway's super-healthy "Eat fresh!" image has to be the biggest load of marketing horseshit in the history of foodservice.
-Pyromaniac-
(02-07-2014, 03:06 AM)
-Pyromaniac-'s Avatar

Originally Posted by BertramCooper

Subway's whole super-healthy "Eat fresh!" image has to be the biggest load of marketing horseshit in the history of foodservice.

insane amounts of sodium and fat are healthy though.

I just wish they weren't so overpriced.
Ferrio
real-time lotion physics
(02-07-2014, 03:07 AM)
Ferrio's Avatar
The "used in X" line is so fucking bullshit and sensational. If you didn't eat anything that contained stuff used in anything other than food you'd pretty much go hungry.
jchap
Banned
(02-07-2014, 03:09 AM)
jchap's Avatar
I brew my coffee in a chemical used to make rubber
freenudemacusers
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:10 AM)
freenudemacusers's Avatar
God made azodicarbonamide, azodicarbonamide don't hurt
Cyan
Purple Drazi
(02-07-2014, 03:10 AM)
Cyan's Avatar

Originally Posted by Ferrio

The "used in X" line is so fucking bullshit and sensational. If you didn't eat anything that contained stuff used in anything other than food you'd pretty much go hungry.

Yeah, "chemical used in rubber" tells me basically nothing.

If there's some real reason it's dangerous or harmful, I'd prefer to hear that rather than "but it's used in xyz!" From the article it sounds like there might be, but it's kind buried while "used in scary things" gets the lede.
Konka
Junior Member
(02-07-2014, 03:11 AM)
Konka's Avatar

Originally Posted by Ferrio

The "used in X" line is so fucking bullshit and sensational. If you didn't eat anything that contained stuff used in anything other than food you'd pretty much go hungry.

"McDonalds to remove ingredient from their buns used to make concrete water"
Phoenix
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:12 AM)
Phoenix's Avatar
Why is the US normally one of the last developed countries to stop using an additive that has been banned by other countries?
Phoenix
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:13 AM)
Phoenix's Avatar

Originally Posted by -Pyromaniac-

insane amounts of sodium and fat are healthy though.

I just wish they weren't so overpriced.

Subway and overpriced shouldn't be in the same sentence. Subway is some of the cheapest food you can get on the market today.
Intheflorsh
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:13 AM)
Intheflorsh's Avatar
Is making bread seem fresh really so difficult?
KHarvey16
hopelessly misguided
(02-07-2014, 03:14 AM)
KHarvey16's Avatar

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Why is the US normally one of the last developed countries to stop using an additive that has been banned by other countries?

There are likely many answers to this question. I have a feeling you assume the US is wrong each time, which would require justification.
Game-Biz
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:14 AM)
Game-Biz's Avatar
Now the bread will probably suck. Gimme my rubber bread I wants it.
Dryk
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:14 AM)
Dryk's Avatar
Remember kids, don't inhale fresh dough.

When azodicarbonamide reacts with flour, it behaves as a hydrogen
acceptor and it is rapidly and completely converted into biurea, which
is stable under baking conditions. Reaction between azodicarbonamide
and flour only occurs on wetting. Forty-five minutes after treatment
of a flour with 8.25 ppm of azodicarbonamide, less than 0.1 ppm of
azodicarbonamide could be detected in the dough.
When 14C-labelled
azodicarbonamide was used for breadmaking, the activity remained in
the bread and there was no liberation of labelled carbon dioxide.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecf...o/40abcj28.htm

Azodicarbonamide (ADA), a dough conditioner, is an additive approved in the US up to a maximum of 45 mg/kg in flour. The addition of 45 mg/kg of ADA was investigated and found to increase the ethyl carbamate (EC) content of commercially prepared breads by 1–3 μg/kg. A similar increase in EC was observed in breads baked in the laboratory with a bread machine. The increase in EC levels appears to depend on a variety of factors, most notably the concentration of ADA added and the time of fermentation. The addition of 20 mg/kg ADA caused only a slight increase, if any, in commercial products but a 2.3 μg/kg increase of EC in breads baked with a bread machine. When 100 mg/kg of ascorbic acid was added along with ADA, smaller EC increases were observed. Addition of urea was also found to enhance the EC content of the bread. Toasting, which was previously shown to increase EC levels, caused even larger increases when ADA or urea had been added.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...1#.UvRQo4UjquA

Note that even with the extra 1-3μg/kg the EC levels in bread are much lower than the levels found in alcoholic products and a bit less than in soy sauce. It's an accumulative product however so anyone with cancer concerns should probably estimate their total intake.
Last edited by Dryk; 02-07-2014 at 03:30 AM.
SimleuqiR
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:14 AM)
SimleuqiR's Avatar
This is why we all gonna die of cancer.
Konka
Junior Member
(02-07-2014, 03:14 AM)
Konka's Avatar

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Subway and overpriced shouldn't be in the same sentence. Subway is some of the cheapest food you can get on the market today.

For what you get? Hell naw. Nearly every local sub place will pile on so much more than subway. The amount of meat on a regular subway sub is laughable.
boutdown
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:15 AM)
boutdown's Avatar

Originally Posted by -Pyromaniac-

insane amounts of sodium and fat are healthy though.

My sarcasm meter is busted.
HeisenbergLannister
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:16 AM)
HeisenbergLannister's Avatar
Was the petition just for Subway to stop using it, or for it to no longer be used in bread altogether?
Phoenix
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:16 AM)
Phoenix's Avatar

Originally Posted by KHarvey16

There are likely many answers to this question. I have a feeling you assume the US is wrong each time, which would require justification.

If a food product (or component thereof) has been banned in other countries, I have a hard time trying to see a reason why you would continue to assume that it is safe for your own citizens to consume it. I'd love to understand the logic behind that reasoning though.
WoolyNinja
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:18 AM)
WoolyNinja's Avatar
Rubber lasts a long time and has this chemical.
+ Subway bread has this chemical.
+ I've eaten Subway bread.
------------------------------------------
= I'll live a long time thanks to Subway?!
Sub_Level
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:18 AM)
Sub_Level's Avatar

Originally Posted by Konka

For what you get? Hell naw. Nearly every local sub place will pile on so much more than subway. The amount of meat on a regular subway sub is laughable.

Some places don't have local sub places.

edit: Check your privilege.
Arkos
Nose how to spell and rede to
(02-07-2014, 03:19 AM)
Arkos's Avatar

Originally Posted by WoolyNinja

Rubber lasts a long time and has this chemical.
+ Subway bread has this chemical.
+ I've eaten Subway bread.
------------------------------------------
= I'll live a long time thanks to Subway?!

Or turn into Stretch Armstrong. It's a win win, really.
Soriku
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:19 AM)
Soriku's Avatar
Am I already dead?
Rm88~
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:20 AM)
Rm88~'s Avatar
Subway is fine, I don't get the hate. In Mexico a 15cm ham sub is ~$1.5 USD, and ~$1.8 for a chicken breast one. You could do much worse price and health-wise if you're going to have fast food.
KHarvey16
hopelessly misguided
(02-07-2014, 03:20 AM)
KHarvey16's Avatar

Originally Posted by Phoenix

If a health product has been banned in other countries, I have a hard time trying to see a reason why you would continue to assume that it is safe for your own citizens to consume it. I'd love to understand the logic behind that reasoning though.

The logic you're employing is that because another place banned it that automatically makes it bad. I'm arguing that that is obviously not true, which means in cases where the US has not banned a substance that other countries have, assuming they are wrong is unjustified without further evidence.

Why is this substance banned? Is that decision supported by current science? Do the factors that went into that decision apply to all countries?
WoolyNinja
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:20 AM)
WoolyNinja's Avatar

Originally Posted by Arkos

Or turn into Stretch Armstrong. It's a win win, really.

I never thought of that!!! Amazing!
CSX
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:21 AM)
And I just got out of the bathroom after a nasty experience with a subway for lunch...
lenovox1
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:24 AM)
lenovox1's Avatar

Originally Posted by Phoenix

If a health product has been banned in other countries, I have a hard time trying to see a reason why you would continue to assume that it is safe for your own citizens to consume it. I'd love to understand the logic behind that reasoning though.

In this case, as posted up thread, azodicarbonamide rapidly converts into the consumable biurea when baked with flour. The compound on it's own, though, has been linked to respiratory conditions by WHO. It's dangerous to inhale.

It's a case of different, yet valid standards here.
Phoenix
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:25 AM)
Phoenix's Avatar

Originally Posted by KHarvey16

The logic you're employing is that because another place banned it that automatically makes it bad. I'm arguing that that is obviously not true, which means in cases where the US has not banned a substance that other countries have, assuming they are wrong is unjustified without further evidence.

Why is this substance banned? Is that decision supported by current science? Do the factors that went into that decision apply to all countries?

So there would be some science or logic that would say that its not fine for someone else to consume said substance but still okay for US citizens to consume that substance? Given that we're talking about countries that all have the same level of peer-reviewed science and that we're all humans following the same basic biology, I still don't see how we can arrive at a decision where "unsafe for them - still safe for us" would be the logical conclusion of a scientific investigation.

Are we suggesting that their science is worse than our science and they got it wrong and it is indeed okay for consumption? Usually it is an economics imperative and not a scientific conclusion that drives these things - but I'm still looking for a way for Australia and Europe to arrive at the conclusion that its just bad, take it out and for us to say "yeah its bad - just don't consume to much of it". Its bad, other developing nations are getting by just fine without it - why are we still consuming it.
Kisaya
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:26 AM)
Kisaya's Avatar
Subway is so gross x( I couldn't stomach eating a sandwich from there the last time I had.
-Pyromaniac-
(02-07-2014, 03:26 AM)
-Pyromaniac-'s Avatar

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Subway and overpriced shouldn't be in the same sentence. Subway is some of the cheapest food you can get on the market today.

not in canada lol, unless it's the sub of the day where you can get a foot long for 7 bucks after taxes. You're gonna end up paying 10-11 bucks for one goddamn sub. To be fair, most fast food costs a lot in Canada aside from value menus (which pale in comparison to amurica).

Not talking about that 6 inches though because I'm too grown for that.
Last edited by -Pyromaniac-; 02-07-2014 at 03:29 AM.
terrisus
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:28 AM)
terrisus's Avatar
Well that's quite a sensationalist headline.

I mean, water has a chemical in it that's used in bleach. Are we going to do something about that?

EDIT: Beaten like a rubber punching bag.
Phoenix
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:28 AM)
Phoenix's Avatar

Originally Posted by lenovox1

In this case, as posted up thread, azodicarbonamide rapidly converts into the consumable biurea when baked with flour. The compound on it's own, though, has been linked to respiratory conditions by WHO. It's dangerous to inhale.

It's a case of different, yet valid standards here.

I understand what you're saying but what I'm saying is why wouldn't you err on the side of caution. Clearly the substance doesn't need to be included as Subway is apparently going to stop using it. So if its not really needed and it has raised the red flag elsewhere, why would you continue its use - even if in limited quantities?
lenovox1
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:30 AM)
lenovox1's Avatar

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I understand what you're saying but what I'm saying is why wouldn't you err on the side of caution. Clearly the substance doesn't need to be included as Subway is apparently going to stop using it. So if its not really needed and it has raised the red flag elsewhere, why would you continue its use - even if in limited quantities?

I don't know how much the FDA and USDA take into consideration the conclusions of other countries.
Game-Biz
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:31 AM)
Game-Biz's Avatar
Well, the science here, correct me if I'm wrong, is suggesting this chemical is fine for human consumption. So I'm not sure this has been banned in other countries based on science that it is actually bad for humans, since it shows that it only affects mice.
Dryk
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:34 AM)
Dryk's Avatar

Originally Posted by Game-Biz

Well, the science here, correct me if I'm wrong, is suggesting this chemical is fine for human consumption. So I'm not sure this has been banned in other countries based on science that it is actually bad for humans, since it shows that it only affects mice.

Two of the three main byproducts are completely fine. The other is a bioaccumulating carcinogen that is found to some extent or another in every fermented product. The main concern is that adding azodicarbonamide increases the amount produced.
mantidor
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:36 AM)
mantidor's Avatar
This doesn't surprise me in the least, the smell in a Subway when they are baking the breads is absolutely disgusting, like burning tires, seriously.

I still eat there, but like once every two months and only because is the only thing open at night near where I live.
Phoenix
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:37 AM)
Phoenix's Avatar

Originally Posted by lenovox1

I don't know how much the FDA and USDA take into consideration the conclusions of other countries.

Probably the case. I am always confused when I see things that have scientific studies that show the harm, the eventual ban in other countries because the harm has been clearly expressed, but its still consumed readily here even though its clear that we could get by without it. For example:

Potassium Bromate
Arsenic-laced Chicken (Roxasrone)
Olestra
Recombinant bovine growth hormone

Given that our own science finds issues with these, we continue to use them anyway - even though other countries just went ahead and banned their use and found substitutes that weren't as toxic.
terrisus
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:38 AM)
terrisus's Avatar
Also, if it's so bad:

In Canada it’s in deli-style rolls and Italian bread. It can also be found in buns at other restaurant chains and in some grocery aisle breads.

Why's it still hanging out in Canada and in "other restaurant chains and in some grocery aisle breads?"
Meier
(02-07-2014, 03:39 AM)
Meier's Avatar
I have no idea how anyone eats Subway. It's terrible -- the worst part has always been the bread so the fact this shit was in it comes as no surprise to me.
Ether_Snake
安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
(02-07-2014, 03:40 AM)
Ether_Snake's Avatar
"Negligible risk in humans" is always funny.
IceCold
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:40 AM)
IceCold's Avatar

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Why is the US normally one of the last developed countries to stop using an additive that has been banned by other countries?

USA has always been like that. Basically for Europe, you have to prove something is safe before allowing consumers to use it, in the US you have to prove that it's unsafe. Huge difference. But then when they discover something is unsafe (such as certain pesticides), they simply sell it to developing nations.
Regiruler
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:40 AM)
Regiruler's Avatar
Jimmy Johns is infinitely better anyway.

I've always hated subway.
suppadoopa
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:41 AM)
suppadoopa's Avatar
But what if it's the chemical thats making them tasty
rokkerkory
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:41 AM)
rokkerkory's Avatar
eat fresh my ass
terrisus
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:43 AM)
terrisus's Avatar

Originally Posted by rokkerkory

eat fresh my ass

But does your ass contain any chemicals used in rubber?
Kite
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:45 AM)
Kite's Avatar
My favorite response was from reddit:

"Sodium chloride could be used to de-ice roads. Are we next going to hear about Subway using an industrial road de-icing agent in their bread? Or about sucrose which is used to make polyurethane foams and glycerol, a chemical used in antifreeze? Or DHMO, the scariest chemical of them all which is used in nuclear reactors, fracking, oil refining, and is a critical part of the chemicals used during lethal injection? Seriously, why is Subway using shoe rubber, road de-icing, anti-freeze precursor, and execution chemicals in their bread?"
Regiruler
Member
(02-07-2014, 03:45 AM)
Regiruler's Avatar

Originally Posted by terrisus

But does your ass contain any chemicals used in rubber?

How else does he keep it nice and taut?
damac
Banned
(02-07-2014, 03:50 AM)
I wonder if this has anything to do with how bad their bread stinks?

No matter what store I go to the bread reminds me of a burnt pizza and you can taste it throughout the dough.

Thread Tools