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nbnt
is responsible for the well-being of this island.
(03-06-2014, 12:35 PM)
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Q: Is KILLZONE SHADOW FALL running 1080p, or something else?
KILLZONE SHADOW FALL’s single and multiplayer modes both run at 1080p.

Q: Is SHADOW FALL running 1080p natively?
In both SP and MP, KILLZONE SHADOW FALL outputs a full, unscaled 1080p image at up to 60 FPS. Native is often used to indicate images that are not scaled; it is native by that definition.

In Multiplayer mode, however, we use a technique called “temporal reprojection,” which combines pixels and motion vectors from multiple lower-resolution frames to reconstruct a full 1080p image. If native means that every part of the pipeline is 1080p then this technique is not native.

Games often employ different resolutions in different parts of their rendering pipeline. Most games render particles and ambient occlusion at a lower resolution, while some games even do all lighting at a lower resolution. This is generally still called native 1080p. The technique used in KILLZONE SHADOW FALL goes further and reconstructs half of the pixels from past frames.

We recognize the community’s degree of investment on this matter, and that the conventional terminology used before may be too vague to effectively convey what’s going on under the hood. As such we will do our best to be more precise with our language in the future.

Q: So how does “temporal reprojection” work and what’s the difference with up-scaling?
Up-scaling is a spatial interpolation filter. When up-scaling an image from one resolution to another, new pixels are added by stretching the image in X/Y dimension. The values of the new pixels are picked to lie in between the current values of the pixels. This gives a bigger, but slightly blurrier picture.

Temporal reprojection is a technique that tracks the position of pixels over time and predicts where they will be in future. These “history pixels” are combined with freshly rendered pixels to form a higher-resolution new frame. This is what KILLZONE SHADOW FALL uses in multiplayer.

So, in a bit more detail, this is what we need for this technique:

  • We keep track of three images of “history pixels” sized 960x1080
  • The current frame
  • The past frame
  • And the past-past frame
  • For each pixel we store its color and its motion vector – i.e. the direction of the pixel on-screen
  • We also store a full 1080p, “previous frame” which we use to improve anti-aliasing
  • Then we have to reconstruct every odd pixel in the frame:
  • We track every pixel back to the previous frame and two frames ago, by using its motion vectors
  • By looking at how this pixel moved in the past, we determine its “predictability”
  • Most pixels are very predictable, so we use reconstruction from a past frame to serve as the odd pixel
  • If the pixel is not very predictable, we pick the best value from neighbors in the current frame
On occasion the prediction fails and locally pixels become blurry, or thin vertical lines appear. However, most of the time the prediction works well and the image is identical to a normal 1080p image. We then increase sub-pixel anti-aliasing using our 1080p “previous frame” and motion vectors, further improving the image quality.

The temporal reprojection technique gave subjectively similar results and it makes certain parts of the rendering process faster. This reduces controller lag and increases responsiveness, which improves the KILLZONE SHADOW FALL multiplayer experience.

We will be discussing KILLZONE SHADOW FALL’s rendering techniques – including this one – in a talk at the upcoming Games Developers Conference on March 20th, Room 132, North Hall. We will go into much more detail, but if you have any questions please leave them in the comments below so that we can address them in the presentation. The presentation slides will be shared on the Guerrilla Games Publications page after the conference.

http://www.killzone.com/en_GB/blog/n...and-1080p.html
Last edited by nbnt; 03-06-2014 at 02:22 PM.
Alienous
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(03-06-2014, 12:36 PM)
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Sounds like a slippery explanation.
ElTorro
I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
(03-06-2014, 12:37 PM)
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Very much appreciated response and explanation. Wish developers would do that more often (and before launch), also just because it's interesting to read.
TechnicPuppet
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(03-06-2014, 12:38 PM)
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Absolute nonsense. Trying to redefine what 1080p means. It's hard enough for people like me to understand these things.

Edit: It makes sense to everyone else so its me who is speaking nonsense.
Last edited by TechnicPuppet; 03-06-2014 at 12:44 PM.
S¡mon
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(03-06-2014, 12:39 PM)
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It's a good explanation.
Estocolmo
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(03-06-2014, 12:39 PM)
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was this excuse specifically attached to neogaf?
Sickbean
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(03-06-2014, 12:40 PM)
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I think that's what you call 'baffling people with science'
Y2Kev
The Last Guardian is Dead. Sorry.
(03-06-2014, 12:41 PM)
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Very interesting and clear technical explanation for a lay person. I'm surprised they did this.
Dragon1893
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(03-06-2014, 12:41 PM)
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Temporal reprojection is a technique that tracks the position of pixels over time and predicts where they will be in future. These “history pixels” are combined with freshly rendered pixels to form a higher-resolution new frame. This is what KILLZONE SHADOW FALL uses in multiplayer.

Interesting, never heard of this technique before. Regardless, they're not rendering a full 1920x1080 for each frame which is what they implied previously.
Nozem
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(03-06-2014, 12:41 PM)
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Interesting read, thanks for sharing!
Opus Angelorum
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(03-06-2014, 12:41 PM)
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So it's outputting at 1080p but not rendering each frame at 1080p, which had been implied?
ElTorro
I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
(03-06-2014, 12:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by TechnicPuppet

Trying to redefine what 1080p means.

Not really, they actually qualify the term:

If native means that every part of the pipeline is 1080p then this technique is not native.

Which is the only legitimate and honest thing to do if a concept doesn't fit into the conventional categorization. They provided a detailed explanation, and everybody can take from that what he wants. The game renders non-natively to increase performance, and that results in a worse IQ. However, the technique results in a better IQ than conventionally upscaled 720p. There is really not much else to conclude, and fighting over semantics will lead nowhere.
Caayn
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(03-06-2014, 12:41 PM)
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Q: Is KILLZONE SHADOW FALL running 1080p, or something else?
KILLZONE SHADOW FALL’s single and multiplayer modes both run at 1080p.

Q: Is SHADOW FALL running 1080p natively?
In both SP and MP, KILLZONE SHADOW FALL outputs a full, unscaled 1080p image at up to 60 FPS. Native is often used to indicate images that are not scaled; it is native by that definition.

Still calling it native 1080p, did GG had some lessons from MS at spinning?
Grimløck
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(03-06-2014, 12:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by TechnicPuppet

Absolute nonsense. Trying to redefine what 1080p means. It's hard enough for people like me to understand these things.

let's disregard everything we don't understand as "absolute nonsense."
Roshin
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(03-06-2014, 12:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by TechnicPuppet

Absolute nonsense. Trying to redefine what 1080p means. It's hard enough for people like me to understand these things.

They are actually quite clear about the definitions. It's an interesting read, IMO.
oddvintagechap.
Junior Member
(03-06-2014, 12:42 PM)
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my question is why did uk get the psn error, and not usa? wack.
benny_a
extra source of jiggaflops
(03-06-2014, 12:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Caayn

Still calling it native 1080p, did GG had some lessons from MS at spinning?

How about you read one more paragraph.
BigTnaples
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(03-06-2014, 12:43 PM)
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Awesome response by GG. Glad they went this route rather than try to force 1080p normally or drop it down to a lower res.

This teqnique gives MP a fantastic smooth IQ that looks like 1080p with FXAA or much like Ryse did with high quality 900p.


Well done GG.
Cthulhu_Steev
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(03-06-2014, 12:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by TechnicPuppet

Absolute nonsense. Trying to redefine what 1080p means. It's hard enough for people like me to understand these things.

If you don't even understand the explanation, then perhaps calling it 'absolute nonsense' could make you look even sillier than usual.
TechnicPuppet
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(03-06-2014, 12:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Roshin

They are actually quite clear about the definitions. It's an interesting read, IMO.

I found it interesting but they could just say it's not 1080p. Or maybe i'm wrong since like I said I struggle to understand things like this.
Nozem
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(03-06-2014, 12:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Caayn

Still calling it native 1080p, did GG had some lessons from MS at spinning?

Hey, you conveniently left out the very next sentence where it's clarified. Did you get lessons from MS at spinning?

See how this works?
ElectricKaibutsu
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(03-06-2014, 12:44 PM)
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It still sounds like they were being intentionally misleading, but I found the explanation fascinating. That's some neat tech. They probably should have just came out with this before the game launched.
Guymelef
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(03-06-2014, 12:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Grimløck

let's disregard everything we don't understand as "absolute nonsense."

.
R dott B
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(03-06-2014, 12:44 PM)
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Nice that they would do this. I thought the MP looked pretty good.
aspiegamer
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(03-06-2014, 12:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by TechnicPuppet

Absolute nonsense. Trying to redefine what 1080p means. It's hard enough for people like me to understand these things.

Nonsense? How most precise would you like them to get and/or what are you looking for that would please you enough regarding the system? It is a gimmicky way to explain 1080p? Yes, but it's actually pretty damn clever.
ElTorro
I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
(03-06-2014, 12:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Caayn

Still calling it native 1080p, did GG had some lessons from MS at spinning?

Do you guys read the whole article? They explicitly say:

Native is often used to indicate images that are not scaled; it is native by that definition.

And then they say:

If native means that every part of the pipeline is 1080p then this technique is not native.

It's a differentiated and detailed response, which is the only honest thing they can do. You can't give them shit for not saying "It's not 1080p" or "It's 1080p" since both statements would be dumbed-down and inaccurate .
Vitor711
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(03-06-2014, 12:45 PM)
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Well that was fascinating.

Also, as big of a deal as everyone makes of this, the fact remains that even the MP in KZ still looks pretty damned good....
Mihael Mello Keehl
(03-06-2014, 12:45 PM)
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Overall a very balanced response
Caayn
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(03-06-2014, 12:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by benny_a

How about you read one more paragraph.

Originally Posted by Nozem

Hey, you conveniently left out the very next sentence where it's clarified. Did you get lessons from MS at spinning?

See how this works?

How about you both read the first paragraph in my quote.
"KILLZONE SHADOW FALL’s single and multiplayer modes both run at 1080p."
GHG
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(03-06-2014, 12:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by TechnicPuppet

Absolute nonsense. Trying to redefine what 1080p means. It's hard enough for people like me to understand these things.

The thing is... I don't understand why people suddenly have a need to understand what all of these things mean down to this level of detail. Especially considering that stuff like this:

Games often employ different resolutions in different parts of their rendering pipeline. Most games render particles and ambient occlusion at a lower resolution, while some games even do all lighting at a lower resolution. This is generally still called native 1080p. The technique used in KILLZONE SHADOW FALL goes further and reconstructs half of the pixels from past frames.

Has been going on for years.

Sometimes its best to just look at what you see on the screen and decide whether you think it looks good or not.

There are lots of things at work in a lot of rendering engines that average joe will not be able to comprehend.
Last edited by GHG; 03-06-2014 at 12:49 PM.
Decarb
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(03-06-2014, 12:46 PM)
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Is the horizontal resolution ever defined in a 1080p image in a TV format?
Cthulhu_Steev
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(03-06-2014, 12:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by TechnicPuppet

I found it interesting but they could just say it's not 1080p. Or maybe i'm wrong since like I said I struggle to understand things like this.

Hit reverse mate, and leave the thread. I can smell burning.
benny_a
extra source of jiggaflops
(03-06-2014, 12:46 PM)
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I would be interested if they got the idea for this based on the LucasArts full-frame interpolation 30->60FPS talk at SIGGRAPH 2010 (or was it GDC 2010)?

I always thought that was super interesting and was hoping for games to use this.

Originally Posted by Decarb

Is the horizontal resolution ever defined in a 1080p image in a TV format?

The vertical resolution isn't even defined in a 1080p image, because of different aspect ratios. When you say 1080p by convention it's implied that you talk about 1920x1080.
Roshin
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(03-06-2014, 12:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by TechnicPuppet

I found it interesting but they could just say it's not 1080p. Or maybe i'm wrong since like I said I struggle to understand things like this.

Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to yell "absolute nonsense" about things you don't understand.
Harlock
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(03-06-2014, 12:47 PM)
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So, this make two times in a row that digitalfoundry make mistakes about PS4 games?
warheat1990
Banned
(03-06-2014, 12:47 PM)

Originally Posted by nbnt

If native means that every part of the pipeline is 1080p then this technique is not native.

I like this part, at least they are being honest about it.
Tommy DJ
Member
(03-06-2014, 12:47 PM)

Originally Posted by TechnicPuppet

Absolute nonsense. Trying to redefine what 1080p means. It's hard enough for people like me to understand these things.

They've basically stated this:

In Multiplayer mode, however, we use a technique called “temporal reprojection,” which combines pixels and motion vectors from multiple lower-resolution frames to reconstruct a full 1080p image. If native means that every part of the pipeline is 1080p then this technique is not native.

The method reconstructs the frame using historic raster information rather than just stretching it so there is no tell-tale signs of traditional upscaling. If we pixel count, we'd come to the conclusion that it is native 1920x1080.

So under a certain definition, it would still be 1920x1080 native. In the definition we typically use, it isn't 1920x1080 native and they admit this extremely clearly from what I have quoted.
Hexa
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(03-06-2014, 12:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Caayn

How about you both read the first paragraph in my quote.
"KILLZONE SHADOW FALL’s single and multiplayer modes both run at 1080p."

They do depending on your definition of 1080p, which they explain clearly below. >_>
There is no spin. Just read the damn thing.

Also this is quite interesting. Very interested in their presentations as well as Sucker Punch's at GDC.
Last edited by Hexa; 03-06-2014 at 12:50 PM.
2San
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(03-06-2014, 12:48 PM)
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Don't know this reminds me off the whole Killzone:SF has dedicated servers thing. While they are technically correct, the actual result is inferior to what is expected from Dedicated servers or 1080p. It just seems dishonest to me and does rub me the wrong way.
Last edited by 2San; 03-06-2014 at 12:50 PM.
nampad
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(03-06-2014, 12:48 PM)
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While you could argue that it technically may be 1080p because they somehow compute the pixels instead of just scaling it, we all know what people expect when you say native 1080p.
So please no more bullshit.
darkwing
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(03-06-2014, 12:48 PM)
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interesting to hear them discuss this at GDC, is this the first game using this technique?
Nozem
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(03-06-2014, 12:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Caayn

How about you both read the first paragraph in my quote.
"KILLZONE SHADOW FALL’s single and multiplayer modes both run at 1080p."

Well, it does, doesn't it?
Dictator93
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(03-06-2014, 12:48 PM)
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Quite nice of them to do that. I hope to see more of these kind of techniques be applied in games focusing on performance in the future.
Bundy
Banned
(03-06-2014, 12:49 PM)
Me, after reading this:

MavFan619
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(03-06-2014, 12:49 PM)
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Very good of GG to do this people will of course continue to question why they didn't address the differences in MP resolution before launch, fairly so. It's good that they at least explained the differences now.
Nerfgun
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(03-06-2014, 12:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Alienous

Sounds like a slippery explanation.

Sometimes I despair of this place.

It couldn't be a clearer explanation. and the technique itself is very impressive.

Sad that they can pull this off (reminds me if Wipeout dynamic rez) but all the warriors want to do is take potshots from the bushes misterxmedia style.
gundamkyoukai
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(03-06-2014, 12:50 PM)
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Very interesting stuff would love to see the tech talk for GDC .
Hope they put it online so everyone can see it .
ElTorro
I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
(03-06-2014, 12:50 PM)
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The main point here is that we rightfully give developers shit if they don't give us enough information or even mislead us. Conversely, we should appreciate when they respond to Internet outrage, because this encourages them to take notice and to respond to the community in the future.
GHG
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(03-06-2014, 12:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by nampad

While you could argue that it technically may be 1080p because they somehow compute the pixels instead of just scaling it, we all know what people expect when you say native 1080p.
So please no more bullshit.

The game is not scaled and they are applying post-processing to a 1080p framebuffer which is then projected to your screen. They have every right to define their game as native 1080p if they wish.
DryvBy
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(03-06-2014, 12:50 PM)
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Game looked good to me. Good response.

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