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With VR coming soon/soonish... Was MS investment on Kinect worth it?

BulletTheory

Neo Member
Right now, the Move might be a very broad approximation of that experience, like here:
6sg9kGH.gif


But long term, a motion tracking camera can be responsible for this.

Imagine playing the scene in God of War 3 where you press your thumbs into a bosses eyes with this tech o_O
 
Imagine playing the scene in God of War 3 where you press your thumbs into a bosses eyes with this tech o_O

Wouldn't you need to have the blue balls on each thumb to approximate that? That's one of the biggest issues I see with Move/Morpheus. The reliance on LED significantly limits your ability to interact.
 

alterno69

Banned
I don't know if Kinect was a succes for MS financially but one thing is certain, it has damaged the image of the brand among core gamers and it also made them lose sight of what made them succesful in the past.
 
i don't think VR or motion controls are worth the investment at all. i'd rather just see more effort from Sony and Microsoft by selling consoles around great games, rather than fly-by-night gimmicks.
 

Farslain

Member
No, not worth it. And it's worthlessness has nothing to do with VR.

It is just a load of worthless novelty shit with regard to actual gaming.

I can see it being needed if MS has some secret VR tech to release, the same way the PS4 camera tracks the lights on the head unit.
 

StuBurns

Banned
Yea, but there's no point of having an increased sense of immersion unless there's actually something worth playing with it.

Not being able to sidestep, move forwards and backwards etc, because you don't have any idea of your surroundings goes a long way towards undoing your sense of presence, because the game needs to confine you, or you need to make the conscious effort to confine yourself. By taking away the Move, you've removed your ability to navigate, and have confined your in game character to stationary or on-rails experiences.

You can't even turn around and reach behind you (as in Rez or Panzer Dragoon), because then the camera stops being able to see your hands and arms. So now we're talking about a VR experience where you don't even have 360 degree vision (no analogue stick for rotation). There's just too many limitations in my opinion to make it a good gaming implementation rather than simply a technical showpiece. Kinect is often criticized because the limitations of what you can control with it prevents it having enough software to justify its purchase. From what you're saying here, it sounds like a VR + Kinect would be useful for so few games you could count them on your virtual fingers.
The roadblocks to VR are really separated into three areas:

- The output, the display and 3D audio simulation.
- The main input, how you interact convincingly within a 3D space with hands, and head-tracking.
- The locomotion input, how you move convincingly within the 3D space.

The first one is basically solved at a consumer level, it will improve, but next year Sony, Oculus, and no doubt others, will ship 'presence capable' VR headsets.

The second one is solved at a consumer level, Move, Hydra, Stem, there are very accurate, very nice and reasonably priced 3D controllers, on board motion tracking with camera based positional tracking is good enough.

The third one is a mess. Omnidirectional walking units are stupidly expensive to make to a decent quality, dedicated rooms are not viable, there are legal issues with allowing people to bump around their environments, etc.

However, just because the third thing isn't addressed is not a reason not to attempt the first two. Just the crappy DK1 with an ugly ass slow screen and bad tracking is a very worthwhile experience. Morpheus/CV1 is going to be really incredible. Five years from then, VR will be hugely better still, but locomotion tracking is a much longer term problem.

It's not about if you can design a game that benefits exact digit tracking, it's just if there is a game you want to feel immersed in. As for how many games someone would prefer to play in VR? Personally I think once people try it, there will be overwhelming demand for content, but we'll have to see.
 

jamiept

Banned
I don't understand why the Kinect's viability/success is being compared to VR. Kinect as/is a $100 device that is easy for everyone to understand and use, and has one of the highest console attach rates (1.0 and 2.0). VR is much more expensive, much more niche, and I can't imagine it will be anywhere near as successful (in the short run). Not even a comparison.

Right. The question is a thinly veiled assumption with a loose attempt at objectivity.

Would Kinect be better suited to VR or AR? Now that is what I would like to know.
 

Zeus7

Member
I wish Microsoft never forced Kinect as much as they did, although I do really like the Kinect on my Xbox One. It works really well for me and simply saying "Xbox got to.." and it does it is a nice feature. They should of left it as an optional extra and maybe they would have not lost the trust of core gamers.
 
I think what we can learn from Kinect is that voice commands, interface related gestures and (passive applications like detecting where you are in the room) are the best uses for it.

Unless you're counting Just Dance I can't think of any game where the Kinect reading player movment actually led to good results.

However, there are things something like Kinect could do in conjunction with VR that would be really cool. For example, you could be playing a VR game with friendly NPCs. You wave at them, the Kinect picks it up and the NPCs wave back. That kind of small touch would be really great.
 

Synth

Member
The roadblocks to VR are really separated into three areas:

- The output, the display and 3D audio simulation.
- The main input, how you interact convincingly within a 3D space with hands, and head-tracking.
- The locomotion input, how you move convincingly within the 3D space.

The first one is basically solved at a consumer level, it will improve, but next year Sony, Oculus, and no doubt others, will ship 'presence capable' VR headsets.

The second one is solved at a consumer level, Move, Hydra, Stem, there are very accurate, very nice and reasonably priced 3D controllers, on board motion tracking with camera based positional tracking is good enough.

The third one is a mess. Omnidirectional walking units are stupidly expensive to make to a decent quality, dedicated rooms are not viable, there are legal issues with allowing people to bump around their environments, etc.

However, just because the third thing isn't addressed is not a reason not to attempt the first two. Just the crappy DK1 with an ugly ass slow screen and bad tracking is a very worthwhile experience. Morpheus/CV1 is going to be really incredible. Five years from then, VR will be hugely better still, but locomotion tracking is a much longer term problem.

It's not about if you can design a game that benefits exact digit tracking, it's just if there is a game you want to feel immersed in. As for how many games someone would prefer to play in VR? Personally I think once people try it, there will be overwhelming demand for content, but we'll have to see.

I'm not questioning the merits of VR at all. I'm dying to play my first Forza/GT or Ace Combat in VR. I think a VR headset plus a Move controller would work very well for many game types.

The Kinect is the only part which I'm contesting, as the two technologies simply don't appear to complement each other. In the stages that you identified, the Kinect falls primarily into the third, and basically seems like a disaster. From what I can tell, the Kinect sounds like it would only hamper the immersion of VR rather than increase it. The onus suddenly shifts to the player to tie the virtual world they can see but not feel, with the physical world they can feel but not see. Nothing breaks immersion quite like trying to ensure your not breaking the rules of interaction with your software.

I'm not questioning how many games people would like to play in VR. I'm questioning how many games people would want to play in VR using the Kinect.
 

nynt9

Member
Interesting, thanks. I just assumed the PS camera was worse than Kinect 2, but apparently that's not the case, in all aspects anyway.

In fact, Sony have licensed the SoftKinetic iisu middleware which in many cases performs better than Microsoft's SDK (we're switching out or Kinects to SoftKinetic DepthSense cameras as Kinect's performance is just very poor, even with Kinect 2) and with the higher framerate on the PS4 camera it seems like it will be a way better solution for not just VR but also body tracking. It requires more work from the developer to set up as Microsoft's SDK has a lot of documentation, but if you put in the effort the results are great. Also iisu works on android as well which means widespread adoption is more likely in the long run.

SoftKinetic with Oculus Rift
 

StuBurns

Banned
I'm not questioning the merits of VR at all. I'm dying to play my first Forza/GT or Ace Combat in VR. I think a VR headset plus a Move controller would work very well for many game types.

The Kinect is the only part which I'm contesting, as the two technologies simply don't appear to complement each other. In the stages that you identified, the Kinect falls primarily into the third, and basically seems like a disaster. From what I can tell, the Kinect sounds like it would only hamper the immersion of VR rather than increase it. The onus suddenly shifts to the player to tie the virtual world they can see but not feel, with the physical world they can feel but not see. Nothing breaks immersion quite like trying to ensure your not breaking the rules of interaction with your software.

I'm not questioning how many games people would like to play in VR. I'm questioning how many games people would want to play in VR using the Kinect.
Well that's actually more the second point.

Right now using the Move is fine, but if you have perfect skeletal tracking with totally acceptable latency, you can then use whatever you want. To use the Morpheus announcement as an example, they talked about choosing an input that resembles what your avatar is using, examples given included a driving wheel, that Move sharpshooter for a gun, the DS4 for a flight yoke, etc.

But if you have 'perfect' Kinect, you can use absolutely anything you want, and the system could just handle all those variants itself. Instead of using one Move as a gun, and another as a torch, you could hold a torch and a toy gun, anything like that which could allow for more accurate accessory selection is beneficial. Not hugely beneficial of course, I didn't mean to imply it would, but considering a camera is needed, skeletal tracking will just eventually be part of the VR solution, even though it's not going to be vital for many games.
 

Synth

Member
I think what we can learn from Kinect is that voice commands, interface related gestures and (passive applications like detecting where you are in the room) are the best uses for it.

Unless you're counting Just Dance I can't think of any game where the Kinect reading player movment actually led to good results.

However, there are things something like Kinect could do in conjunction with VR that would be really cool. For example, you could be playing a VR game with friendly NPCs. You wave at them, the Kinect picks it up and the NPCs wave back. That kind of small touch would be really great.

Kinect Adventures made good use of the Kinect for a variety of game types that would not work without it. Leaks (using your hands a feet to block water leaks) and River Rush (two players on a raft) could not be experienced with any other controller solutions available today.

Gunstringer had a great control system of using one hand to move the character by emulating operated a string puppet, whilst using your other hand as a finger gun. Worked flawlessly.

Kinect Sports has shown various proficient uses for the Kinect. The new version has a rock climbing mode, which definitely requires the Kinect to work.

Kinect Party was basically Playroom, before Playroom existed.

The Kinect has had numerous worthwhile gaming applications. They're just not within the same genres that we usually play with a controller.

Well that's actually more the second point.

Right now using the Move is fine, but if you have perfect skeletal tracking with totally acceptable latency, you can then use whatever you want. To use the Morpheus announcement as an example, they talked about choosing an input that resembles what your avatar is using, examples given included a driving wheel, that Move sharpshooter for a gun, the DS4 for a flight yoke, etc.

But if you have 'perfect' Kinect, you can use absolutely anything you want, and the system could just handle all those variants itself. Instead of using one Move as a gun, and another as a torch, you could hold a torch and a toy gun, anything like that which could allow for more accurate accessory selection is beneficial. Not hugely beneficial of course, I didn't mean to imply it would, but considering a camera is needed, skeletal tracking will just eventually be part of the VR solution, even though it's not going to be vital for many games.

I guess as an additional factor it could be beneficial. I'm still not really sold on any examples given (flashlight + toy gun = no navigation again... and it wouldn't know when you're turning the flashlight on or off). But using it in conjunction with other control systems wouldn't be a hindrance. There's still quite a few questions that go along with it though. Like if you have a Move in your hand and can use the stick to move about... what does the skeletal tracking decide to do with your legs? etc.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
Well Kinect 1 sold well on 360 and probably made them money. So that was a wise investment and good way to cash in on the motion control craze last gen.

Putting Kinect 2 in every X1 was probably not wise. That craze has died down, core gamers mostly don't like it and don't want to pay $100 more for the console because of it.

They could have done all the voice command stuff just by popping a mic on the front of the console itself. No one talks much about using the gestures anyway, but people do seem to like the voice commands (not everyone of course). Then they could have had price equivalence with PS4, and perhaps more appeal to casual gamers with the TV/media stuff. But I don't think that stuff is worth $100 more to many people, especially casuals who probably already balk a little at even a $400 console.
 

ShowDog

Member
I would imagine the boosted success the 360 saw late in its lifespan was worth the investment in Kinect, but as of yet Kinect seems to have done nothing but drag the xb1 down and there doesn't seem to be anything on the horizon that would change that. That will more than likely offset the gains they saw during the 360 era, especially if the overall investment in the R&D was large.
 

StuBurns

Banned
I guess as an additional factor it could be beneficial. I'm still not really sold on any examples given (flashlight + toy gun = no navigation again... and it wouldn't know when you're turning the flashlight on or off). But using it in conjunction with other control systems wouldn't be a hindrance. There's still quite a few questions that go along with it though. Like if you have a Move in your hand and can use the stick to move about... what does the skeletal tracking decide to do with your legs? etc.
Obviously it would have to disregard contradictory data, so for example if you're doing some stretch thing by pulling your leg up, and you're choosing to have your avatar run, it couldn't depict the leg being pulled up.

How we interpret the locomotion controls are going to be interesting I think, I imagine no one would have trouble maintaining a sense of presence while slowly and gently having an avatar move around an environment while you remain still, for example, if you played Dear Esther, or Proteus, or The Witness in VR, even though within the context of those places, there isn't some magical moving platforms, we have experiences in real-life with automated movement, like travelators, I don't think people would have a problem internalizing that, but if you have something like a VR version of the film Contact, where you're being battered around inside a spaceship going through a wormhole, it's going to be completely terrible I suspect.

The sort of 'perfect' VR experiences, cockpits basically, I think it's going to be way too limited in application. I think it'll be fantastic, Project CARS is Morpheus and Rift, and I'm salivating already, my first VR experience (modern VR I mean) was Strike Suit Zero, which was pretty cool, but in a way that's also the antithesis of VR, because it's putting you in an environment inside of a game world, not just in the game world, it's like a virtual simulator at that point. What I really want from VR is going to be things like the games I listed above, or Until Dawn, games that will require an avatar to move within an environment, so I have to just hope the effect isn't impacted by that.

I think ultimately this is an issue of degrees of awesome though, if someone is having the 'perfect' presence experience or not, VR is a huge step up in immersion and control. Lots of people on GAF have cited playing HL2 in DK1 as their best gaming experience, and I believe them, despite that game not being made for VR, and that Rift not being very impressive at all technologically.
 

borius

Neo Member
Surely it was but I don't think that their strategy for the last Xbox 360 years was worth it.
They could have had both kinect and regular games, pushing Xbox 360 further.
 

Jomjom

Banned
In fact, Sony have licensed the SoftKinetic iisu middleware which in many cases performs better than Microsoft's SDK (we're switching out or Kinects to SoftKinetic DepthSense cameras as Kinect's performance is just very poor, even with Kinect 2) and with the higher framerate on the PS4 camera it seems like it will be a way better solution for not just VR but also body tracking. It requires more work from the developer to set up as Microsoft's SDK has a lot of documentation, but if you put in the effort the results are great. Also iisu works on android as well which means widespread adoption is more likely in the long run.

SoftKinetic with Oculus Rift

Wow ive never heard about this. Definitely looks better than the Kinect 2.0 from that demo.
 
Wouldn't you need to have the blue balls on each thumb to approximate that? That's one of the biggest issues I see with Move/Morpheus. The reliance on LED significantly limits your ability to interact.

Does it completely rely on the leds though? When my kids punch robots in playroom, they react. Most of the time they aren't even holding the controller when they play.
 
Well, I don't really know how "soon" VR is actually coming. I'm betting that we're talking over a year from now at the earliest for widescale consumer adoption, and that assuming consumers do actually choose to adopt it. I'm not sold on the idea that VR will in fact be the future, but assuming that it is, I'm not sure these first major steps are going to matter a whole lot in the scope of this generation of consoles/gaming.

As for Kinect, I'm not sure where it fits into all this, but I don't imagine it was intended for VR. (Even if it theoretically could be used for motion tracking.) It's a wholly different gamble in my mind, and while I think it's a poor one, I don't think it's success or failure is necessarily hinged on whether or not VR takes off.
 

nynt9

Member
Wouldn't you need to have the blue balls on each thumb to approximate that? That's one of the biggest issues I see with Move/Morpheus. The reliance on LED significantly limits your ability to interact.

PS camera does skeletal/hand tracking as well, see my post above.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Awesome @ the SoftKinetic stuff. Great to hear that full body motion tracking has viable solutions outside of MS's proprietary stuff.

Having said that though, 60ms latency while not great, isn't unworkable for body motion tracking.

Indeed, it's pretty reasonable for overall body movement (torso/legs).

For hands, it's ok, but could be better...

But then, a decent VR full body motion control system would still include a split controller system - because even with the capacity for finger tracking, most situations are still better with a controller - especially FPV games where you're frequently manipulating and holding tools, and walking around is significantly easier with analog sticks as well.
 
In fact, Sony have licensed the SoftKinetic iisu middleware which in many cases performs better than Microsoft's SDK (we're switching out or Kinects to SoftKinetic DepthSense cameras as Kinect's performance is just very poor, even with Kinect 2) and with the higher framerate on the PS4 camera it seems like it will be a way better solution for not just VR but also body tracking. It requires more work from the developer to set up as Microsoft's SDK has a lot of documentation, but if you put in the effort the results are great. Also iisu works on android as well which means widespread adoption is more likely in the long run.

SoftKinetic with Oculus Rift
Wow, that's pretty impressive. Do you know much about skeletal tracking on PS4? I know they could do it with the Eye, but it was fairly rudimentary. I'd imagine the stereo camera would make the system more robust, but I haven't really heard anyone talking about it at all, beyond some basic stuff in PlayRoom. I know the tracking likely won't be as solid as Kinect, but is it good enough for approximating the position of elbows, hips, knees, etc? Obviously, we'll get precision tracking for head and hands from the Move tech, but is the stereo camera "good enough" for the rest of your body? Like, if you squat, it should be able to tell the difference between knees-together and knees-bowed, right?

Interesting. It seems SoftKinetic is used in Just Dance on PS4. I guess I should actually boot that up at some point and see how it works; I'd assumed it just tracked the wands. Maybe I can answer some of my own questions. lol
 

ZehDon

Gold Member
Woah. It's easy to be an analyst with the benefit of hindsight, eh?
Haha, well, hindsight isn't necessary. The writing was on the wall the moment Microsoft pushed the Xbone into the spotlight. Kinect 1.0 was an interesting diversion, but a diversion that ultimately failed to deliver on its potential, and damaged their reputation with the core gamer. Microsoft didn't care about that till gamers handed them their coat at E3 last year. Since then, Microsoft have brought a whole-lotta nothing to the table to justify Kinect 2.0 in the box. 2.0's inclusion is a blunder that has hindered Microsoft's ability to compete on price - a major sticking point for their weaker console. Hit the search button and look back - Microsoft are about where realistic opinions post-180 put them. Second place, with the kinect-powered-inflated-price point killing Microsoft gloablly. Kinect 2.0 is costing them dearly.
 

demolitio

Member
Wouldn't you need to have the blue balls on each thumb to approximate that? That's one of the biggest issues I see with Move/Morpheus. The reliance on LED significantly limits your ability to interact.

Glowing LED gloves for everyone then! :D

Kinect can do a lot of cool, advanced things you don't normally see, but it's definitely not well-suited for VR unless they can get really creative with it. Maybe they'll come with great AR eventually.

I use the PS3 camera on my PC for head-tracking games like flight sims due to its low latency and high framerate and it works out a lot better than the other cameras I tried. You can tell it was designed solely for gaming applications and that's what it's good for.
 
Wow, this thread has been very informative. I thought Kinect would be perfect for VR since it does full body tracking.

But now that I see that the camera frames per second is not fast enough for VR.

Damn man, I was actually excited for the kinect for once if they did bundle a VR headset with it.

But now I see that isnt possible.

But can they just update the latency with software updates, or does it goes further than that by introducing hardware into the equation???
 
But can they just update the latency with software updates, or does it goes further than that by introducing hardware into the equation???
Well, the first thing they'd need to do is increase the frame rate on the camera. That likely isn't possible — we've heard nothing at all to indicate it is — but let's assume it is for a moment.

If they bumped the frame rate from 30 to 60 Hz, that would shave 17 ms off of their latency, taking them from 60 ms to about 43 ms, which is a step in the right direction, but we're trying to reach 20 ms motion-to-photon. So not only are we still a good ways off from our latency targets, since we've doubled the frame rate, we've also doubled the amount of data we need to process. The current GPU reservation for skeletal tracking is 10%. If we're going to double the sampling rate, we'll need to double the GPU reservation as well.

Sony actually doubled the frame rate on the Camera to 120 Hz, up from 60 Hz on the PS Eye. If MS could do the same with Kinect, they'd still only be at 35 ms, and using as much as 40% of the GPU in the process.

So, yeah. No.
 
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