• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Ubisoft gave journalists a free Nexus 7 at a Watchdogs Preview event.

unbias

Member
Well, if you'd assume you'd be bought and paid for, there's no reason you'd assume others wouldn't. That's the crux of it, and I can't hope to divest you of that bleak, depressing notion.

I outlined a scenario where no one keeps the tchotchke and where the editor for a publication assigns two different people to review and preview a game. That seems to address the problem at hand...

Not really, because if what you said actually happened these companies wouldn't waste the money. You trying to twist what I am saying is curious.

Well, if you'd assume you'd be bought and paid for, there's no reason you'd assume others wouldn't. That's the crux of it, and I can't hope to divest you of that bleak, depressing notion.

That part doesn't address anything I said really, unless you are trying to say that the scenario you are portraying is faultless in terms of influence from publisher gifts and ect.

It doesnt matter that everyone isn't bought(which isnt even the main goal, imo,I already outlined what I think their main intentions are), what matters is these publishers keep doing these things, which infers it works. It doesnt matter what scenario you come up with, because there is no way for the consumer to know who is and isn't creating a narrative pro industry, in favor over consumers. Your scenario doesn't address the fact that publishers keep doing this, which the only thing I can think of is, you think these publishers are doing it for no reason.
 

Zephyx

Member
IMO, practices like this are commonplace in whatever industry you work in. Most people on the receiving end would probably accept the "gift" but it doesn't necessarily mean their integrity or decision-making is compromised. Of course, they can always refuse but if they're doing something for the giving end and they know it would not be a conflict of interest with their work, why not accept it? I'd say let the public think what they want about the deed but let the output of your work prove them otherwise.
 

Obetron

Neo Member
IMO, practices like this are commonplace in whatever industry you work in. Most people on the receiving end would probably accept the "gift" but it doesn't necessarily mean their integrity or decision-making is compromised.

It isn't about if their integrity is actually compromised. It's about the suspicion that it could be. If personal intentions were as easy to read as the public ones, it wouldn't be an issue, but sadly that isn't the case.

In journalism, an easy way to avoid this issue is to supply a stipend to the publisher in advance (say, for $5,000) to cover the cost of their "gifts." This way it looks as though they weren't bribed in any way, and were instead paying for a service to have such intimate access to the game and its publisher.

A good analogy is in sports. In my city, the game organizers shower the local journalists with free food (exclusively, mind you; if it were for everyone including the public, no one would care, right?). Local media outlets can be seen as ethically imbalanced for accepting any special treatment because it affects their coverage of the game and their opinions of the vendor. Instead, they'll give those vendors a lump sum of money (like I mentioned before) that avoids that problem all together.

Granted, it really depends on whether the outlet/publication can even afford to give out a small stipend. If they can't, then taking that gift is just shitty and ethically questionable at best (assuming they don't resell off the gift to fans/readers, or reject it).

Of course, they can always refuse but if they're doing something for the giving end and they know it would not be a conflict of interest with their work, why not accept it? I'd say let the public think what they want about the deed but let the output of your work prove them otherwise.
The thing is, the quality of the final product (in this case a game review) can and should be scrutinized. But no matter how well written a review is, if it's known that 1) something like the Nexus 7 is given to the pub or writers at any point and 2) their review ends up at least on the higher end of favorable, I would be suspicious of the actual quality of the game.

I agree- intentions are the end-all when it comes to your review and what you decide to do with "gifts." Sadly consumers won't care about that, especially ones who know that it is a massive conflict of interest to accept them. It will at least make the uninformed consumer say "Huh? No way they gave those journalists gifts!" resulting in apathy, new found awareness, or a false understanding of the industry at large.
 

unbias

Member
IMO, practices like this are commonplace in whatever industry you work in. Most people on the receiving end would probably accept the "gift" but it doesn't necessarily mean their integrity or decision-making is compromised. Of course, they can always refuse but if they're doing something for the giving end and they know it would not be a conflict of interest with their work, why not accept it? I'd say let the public think what they want about the deed but let the output of your work prove them otherwise.

And there is a lot of corruption in most of those industries. And you cant truly know how much it effects you long term, when you are constantly dealing with the industry more so then the consumer(Just like TV advertisements). Also, games are incredibly subjective, so the idea that you can prove you are not a industry shill through publications is incredibly hard to achieve and for the most part is fantasy ,imo.
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
Not really, because if what you said actually happened these companies wouldn't waste the money. You trying to twist what I am saying is curious.

What he says is actually what usually happens. At a medium-to-large sized outlet, rarely is the reviewer the same person who covered the game in previews at major events, especially involving travel. The problem with stuff like this is the (very understandable) perception of corruption or bias, not actual corruption or bias. At G4 we would never have been allowed to keep something like a Nexus 7 for ourselves if we attended this event. It would have been auctioned off for charity or been turned over to be used for in-office business purposes elsewhere.
 

unbias

Member
What he says is actually what usually happens. At a medium-to-large sized outlet, rarely is the reviewer the same person who covered the game in previews at major events, especially involving travel. The problem with stuff like this is the (very understandable) perception of corruption or bias, not actual corruption or bias. At G4 we would never have been allowed to keep something like a Nexus 7 for ourselves if we attended this event. It would have been auctioned off for charity or been turned over to be used for in-office business purposes elsewhere.

So then are you saying that the publishers are receiving no net benefit from doing this, that they are wasting money, based on nothing and they don't have anything in office that shows a net benefit from gifts, events, and ect? Because that is what is truly hard to believe, that these companies that have billions just straight up waste money at press events giving stuff away and ect, simply because, it just doesn't make sense.
 

funkypie

Banned
I hope the game is a success. If not publishers will stop making new IPS and just give us endless sequels. I don't mean just for watch dogs but in general.
 

numble

Member
IMO, practices like this are commonplace in whatever industry you work in. Most people on the receiving end would probably accept the "gift" but it doesn't necessarily mean their integrity or decision-making is compromised. Of course, they can always refuse but if they're doing something for the giving end and they know it would not be a conflict of interest with their work, why not accept it? I'd say let the public think what they want about the deed but let the output of your work prove them otherwise.
Not for journalism. Maybe for enthusiast press.
Not a Nexus 8? Watch_Dogs promotes outdated technology. I bet they can't even shut down a city power grid with those relics.
Where can you get a Nexus 8?
 
D

Deleted member 13876

Unconfirmed Member
I would like to know what percentage of people who received this was enthusiast press. I think a gift like this potentially has a lot more impact than on a paid journalist. These people are writing article after article, only getting rewarded with the occasional review copy, if that and suddenly get a nice tablet along with an invite to a cool event. You're doing this as a hobby and are less bound to professional ethics so most people probably keep it. I know I likely would in that situation.

As I said before, the press situation for games in Europe is such that there's often a lot of enthusiasts versus people who are actually paid for the job or get steady freelance work if they are. Despite this, these sites still reach a vast amount of people. The biggest games site in Belgium is tied to a magazine that pays its writers, but the website is separate from that (mostly) and has a community of 100K members. Unless things have changed, the writers for the site aren't compensated for their work beyond review copies and are generally fairly young. Press trips, occasional swag and promises of this mostly volunteer work potentially opening up doors in the game industry are the primary sources of compensation for these people.
 

SpyGuy239

Member
I really don't have any issue with this.

They can give whatever score they deem fit, biased or not. I'm only going to purchase the game if I like what I see from gameplay, word of mouth etc.
 

conman

Member
Not for journalism. Maybe for enthusiast press.
As ever, many folks in this forum have an unjustifiably optimistic view of what non-games journalism is like.

As in gaming, some editors/outlets are very rigorous in the ethical standards they set for their writers. Most are not. And just like in gaming, the line between "professional" and "amateur" journalist is increasingly thin--leading to even thinner ethical boundaries.
 

jschreier

Member
As a journo in the industry If WatchDogs graphic quality etc. ends up being significantly less than what was shown in 2012 do you hold a grudge to Ubi because you were in a way 'had' by a company to promote their game for 2 years on false pretenses? Do you go out of your way to push the breaks on all future Ubi coverage and maybe say "hey that _____ game looks good, but remember it could end up looking like shit when it comes out" ??

Or does it not matter and clicks are king? Which from a guy in finance I get it to ignore stuff like that from a major publisher as there are only a few left and every site needs to make money from covering "premiere games" before launch.
I think we'll find some way to talk about it. We have a pretty good track record, I think. http://kotaku.com/5965724/the-years-worst-bullshots-aka-screenshots-that-lied-to-you/
 

Zephyx

Member
It isn't about if their integrity is actually compromised. It's about the suspicion that it could be. If personal intentions were as easy to read as the public ones, it wouldn't be an issue, but sadly that isn't the case.

Yes, that is the main issue but as I said, the quality of your work should prove that otherwise.

A good analogy is in sports. In my city, the game organizers shower the local journalists with free food (exclusively, mind you; if it were for everyone including the public, no one would care, right?). Local media outlets can be seen as ethically imbalanced for accepting any special treatment because it affects their coverage of the game and their opinions of the vendor. Instead, they'll give those vendors a lump sum of money (like I mentioned before) that avoids that problem all together.

I don't think sports is a good analogy for this. Local media outlets for sports cannot spin bad performance or a bad outing like what a bad game journalist does. At best, they can provide color commentary which local fans can enjoy. Coverage for sports is not as subjective as games as there are officials/committee upholding the rules for sports while games are entirely subjective.

In journalism, an easy way to avoid this issue is to supply a stipend to the publisher in advance (say, for $5,000) to cover the cost of their "gifts." This way it looks as though they weren't bribed in any way, and were instead paying for a service to have such intimate access to the game and its publisher.

Granted, it really depends on whether the outlet/publication can even afford to give out a small stipend. If they can't, then taking that gift is just shitty and ethically questionable at best (assuming they don't resell off the gift to fans/readers, or reject it).
That is a good example but I think very few companies do that.

The thing is, the quality of the final product (in this case a game review) can and should be scrutinized. But no matter how well written a review is, if it's known that 1) something like the Nexus 7 is given to the pub or writers at any point and 2) their review ends up at least on the higher end of favorable, I would be suspicious of the actual quality of the game.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be scrutinized. I'm just saying a well written review is always a good sign I can trust the writer. Even if the review is favorable or not, I know I'll come back for future articles of this author knowing I can trust him. Of course, you can be suspicious if something like that happens but as I said again, the quality of the work should be able to dispel your doubts.

Personally, I think people should always be suspicious of the quality of any game as games are very subjective. In general, reviews are there to ease or prove your suspicions, granted, you trust its content. In the end, you will always be the judge.

And there is a lot of corruption in most of those industries. And you cant truly know how much it effects you long term, when you are constantly dealing with the industry more so then the consumer(Just like TV advertisements). Also, games are incredibly subjective, so the idea that you can prove you are not a industry shill through publications is incredibly hard to achieve and for the most part is fantasy ,imo.

Corruption is always there as you cannot fully eliminate it in those industries. It also happens in work and personal relationships, though, it's not that obvious. If you don't trust in the industry anymore, don't rely on them. You will come to a point that the only thing you can trust is yourself.

Though I agree with you that games are very subjective, reviewers are supposed to gain your trust using their reviews so you will come back for more. The decision of them being a shill or not boils down to you. It's very simple. If you like them, come back to them. If not, don't give them their ad revenue and don't read their articles anymore.

So then are you saying that the publishers are receiving no net benefit from doing this, that they are wasting money, based on nothing and they don't have anything in office that shows a net benefit from gifts, events, and ect? Because that is what is truly hard to believe, that these companies that have billions just straight up waste money at press events giving stuff away and ect, simply because, it just doesn't make sense.

The net benefit of doing this is not as tangible as you may think. I think most content providers want to establish a good impression and a relationship with those people on the receiving end because they want those people to think of them in a good way. It's the same thing as providing a sales pitch to a certain client. You treat them to dinner and other things because of the same reason I provided above. Though, it doesn't work all of the time, there will be a point that the receiving end will subconsciously think of the content providers before doing any good or bad decisions related to them because of goodwill. In the end, it will all come down to those people (reviewers/writers) as they should be professionals in what they do.
 

numble

Member
As ever, many folks in this forum have an unjustifiably optimistic view of what non-games journalism is like.

As in gaming, some editors/outlets are very rigorous in the ethical standards they set for their writers. Most are not. And just like in gaming, the line between "professional" and "amateur" journalist is increasingly thin--leading to even thinner ethical boundaries.

It happens far more in regular journalism than you would think. I've been told far too many crazy stories involving "gifts" to believe otherwise.

Please tell me which outlets you're talking about, then. There is a very high bar for me personally for the journalism outlets I follow.
 
Yep journalists,and more so the websites that they work for in this industry are corrupt. Frankly lacking any resemblance of integrity as well. I don't read the reviews or any opinion based articles about games from any of the major players. I buy the games, and consoles I want to buy... No corrupt hack will influence that, and I'm not going to give them clicks.

Sure other forms of journalism is corrupt as well... but it doesn't mean we can't expect better.
 

bud23

Member
Ridiculous. Why not just let the quality of your work speak for itself, Ubisoft? Oh wait, I see, I see.

Well done, Ubi, well done.
 

d9b

Banned
BkEMvZRCMAAWq79.jpg
Is this real?
 

Wiktor

Member
It has to be said though, generally publishers don't spend anywhere near as much on this type of crap as they used to. Before financial crisis they were flewing people to Dubai for game demos or putting them in a 5 stars french hotels, where each journalist got a huge room with a damn jacuzzuzi in the middle.
 

Dali

Member
It's like games "journalists" aren't aware of the phrase "appearance of impropriety". Saying "yeah I accepted it, but..." is just as unacceptable as accepting with no caveats.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
What is sad is that probably programmer Joe takes pride in his part in creating Watchdogs but then everyone who praises his work will be marked as bought shills.

Accepting these "rewards" is very, very irresponsible for the journalists, even if it's "something that everybody does" or "I guarantee the score will not be affected" because what it does is create a toxic environment where mistrust is the main air that we all breathe.
 

Alpende

Member
Companies (IGN, Joystiq, Eurogamer and whatnot) should enforce a rule for journo's that work for them not to accept gifts over an x amount of money (say 50 bucks). That's pretty standard in most businesses. Accepting something like a Nexus 7 is not doing anyone any favours expect Ubisoft.
 

Honey Bunny

Member
Gross. But sounds like this was a European thing? Worth noting. European press and US press seem to have totally different standards, rules, and practices. All that free PS3 stuff a couple years ago was also in the UK.

Hey, cant blame them for using old tactics when they have worked in the past. IBut then again its obviously gotta be an "European thing", that would never happen in an american blog like Kotaku.

That's golden. The US flag really makes it.
 

hohoXD123

Member
IMO, practices like this are commonplace in whatever industry you work in. Most people on the receiving end would probably accept the "gift" but it doesn't necessarily mean their integrity or decision-making is compromised. Of course, they can always refuse but if they're doing something for the giving end and they know it would not be a conflict of interest with their work, why not accept it? I'd say let the public think what they want about the deed but let the output of your work prove them otherwise.

But there's no guarantee of that, it's why we always have double-blind trials (when it's an option) whereby the researchers themselves don't know what they're giving to the subjects. You can still be biased no matter how much you've managed to convince yourself that you won't be.
 

Dawg

Member
I would like to know what percentage of people who received this was enthusiast press. I think a gift like this potentially has a lot more impact than on a paid journalist. These people are writing article after article, only getting rewarded with the occasional review copy, if that and suddenly get a nice tablet along with an invite to a cool event. You're doing this as a hobby and are less bound to professional ethics so most people probably keep it. I know I likely would in that situation.

As I said before, the press situation for games in Europe is such that there's often a lot of enthusiasts versus people who are actually paid for the job or get steady freelance work if they are. Despite this, these sites still reach a vast amount of people. The biggest games site in Belgium is tied to a magazine that pays its writers, but the website is separate from that (mostly) and has a community of 100K members. Unless things have changed, the writers for the site aren't compensated for their work beyond review copies and are generally fairly young. Press trips, occasional swag and promises of this mostly volunteer work potentially opening up doors in the game industry are the primary sources of compensation for these people.

The Belgian website you're talking about has a very corrupt background. It also lost most of its decent writers and the old team is pretty much gone, partially because of the corruption and other problems. Ever since that happened, they've had many different young writers that ended up leaving after a few months. I'm not saying all of them are bad, but when you have young/inexperienced writers leaving and joining each few months, it's hard to maintain a decent reputation.

I don't even think the frontpage of said site is really that popular anymore, it's their forum that makes most people keep visiting the site. It's a really popular forum, especially for a small country like Belgium. That said, I hardly browse it anymore these days. NeoGAF is much more interesting in that regard.
 
D

Deleted member 13876

Unconfirmed Member
The Belgian website you're talking about has a very corrupt background. It also lost most of its decent writers and the old team is pretty much gone, partially because of the corruption and other problems. Ever since that happened, they've had many different young writers that ended up leaving after a few months. I'm not saying all of them are bad, but when you have young/inexperienced writers leaving and joining each few months, it's hard to maintain a decent reputation.

I don't even think the frontpage of said site is really that popular anymore, it's their forum that makes most people keep visiting the site. It's a really popular forum, especially for a small country like Belgium. That said, I hardly browse it anymore these days. NeoGAF is much more interesting in that regard.

Regardless of that specific site. I think the picture of big fansites working on mostly volunteer basis can probably be extrapolated to continental Europe as a whole. A lot of these writers pump out news article after news article to get the occasional review copy or to get to go on a trip like this. Getting a gift like a Nexus is like a jackpot for someone who's been compensated for his work in this fashion. If you read the "job openings" the "what you'll get in return" that section lists all those aspects along with "who knows maybe this will lead to a full-time job within the games industry (read: marketing position). You wouldn't be the first!" Apparently they have recently started offering "small compensations", but I can't see that being more than pocket money.

I'm using that site as an example again, but I don't want to single them out. I've seen other sites use the exact same words and I'm sure it's pretty common. To get back to my point though. These writers skew on the young site and are generally not beholden to a set of ethics professionals adhere to. They view this as a hobby that could lead to a career and every little bonus they get in between carries more weight than it would for someone doing their job.

This creates a setup in which your boss isn't really rewarding you for your efforts extrinsically, but the publishers are. For people dreaming of a full-time job within the industry, which usually translates to marketing, this gives them even more incentive to keep publishers happy. While these people may not do this on a conscious level I do suspect giving out swag does impact their judgment substantially more and because the enthusiast press is a huge part of the total gaming press for a lot of continental Europe I can see this paying off nicely for publishers unless they go overboard and get called on it. But again, I do empathize with enthusiast writers and think it's hard for them to say no to these types of gifts as it comprises the bulk of the compensation they get.
 
Top Bottom