lifa-cobex
Member
I don't know about this Phil Fish thing.....
But I do hate Nickelback
But I do hate Nickelback
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This is Phil Fish
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
Yep, some people here have a short memory, like a fish dare I say. Very obnoxious guy, talented but rude. Eh, internet fame...Whatcha gonna do...
at 8:46 it says it never happened.
but even if it did, it isn't the point of the video, so I'm going to drop it. It is about why people hate and look for reasons to hate someone they do not know.
Never understood the sympathy for this guy. It's one thing for the internet hate train to come down on you for nothing at all, like the cod guy, and it's another thing to intentionally bring it on yourself and then have multiple breakdowns because you can't handle the negativity. I mean ffs he had andy Warhol as his Twitter avatar...
Sorry, but i'm not going to feel bad for a guy who essentially stuck his dick in a beehive to get attention and then cried because he got stung.
Sorry, but i'm not going to feel bad for a guy who essentially stuck his dick in a beehive to get attention and then cried because he got stung.
Would the real Phil Fish please stand up?
Cool. Watch the whole video though. You keep replying but refuse to just watch the entire video.
It mentions it more than once actually. And that entire video of the round table was up on youtube for months.
Starwolf_UK
Member
I never saw the roundtable in question but I think the intent was the latter statement (and in the context of the roundtable itself a question of "what do you think of Japanese games these days?" and what the Japanese person seemed to get from it is that they need to work harder) but for people Fishing (hur hur) for a headline it is very easy to strip the statement from its context and like the video said, they are popular articles.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
Lot of good points about the internet. I love this type of social awareness thing.
TitusGroan
Banned
When games like Dark Souls, Bayonetta, Mario Galaxy, Monster Hunter, SMT IV, Vanquish, Dragon's Dogma, FXIV ARR and more all come out and garner considerable critical acclaim. When the biggest gameplay developments last generation in platormers, action games, RPGs and third-person shooters were spear headed by Japanese developers. Could you put a list similar to the above comprised solely of UK games? Or games from France?
Japan still punches way above its weight when it comes to a single country producing great games, and Fish made himself look like an utter arse when he dismissed the entire output of a single country. Sure, Japan doesn't match up to the entirety of the Western hemisphere, because then you're grouping together about a dozen countries. It was a stupid comment to make, and clearly untrue when you look at just how many Japanese games recently have come out and garnered huge acclaim.
Pyccko
Member
Ooh, a Phil Fish thread. Time for my obligatory post.
Ahem.
Phil Fish I love you plz come back and make Fez II plz
Anyways, that's a great video. Definitely breaks down the mechanics of internet fame pretty succinctly.
Ahem.
Phil Fish I love you plz come back and make Fez II plz
Anyways, that's a great video. Definitely breaks down the mechanics of internet fame pretty succinctly.
holy hell succinctly doesn't even look like a real word help my semantics are being satiated
That is all well and good. The question remains why some people feel the need to hate and exact vengeance for perceived wrongs, and then judge a person they do not know as an asshole and worthless. Headline 'fish says japanese games suck' reactions 'go kill yourself'. headline 'sarkesian makes vid about women in videogames' reaction 'i'm going to rape your ass'. why?
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Good video. That was a really thorough and interesting breakdown.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
What the hell? There's literally a video of him saying it to the guy's face out there.
lolwat
Fish's reaction to that question was a pretty good indicator of why people don't like him, it's ridiculous to dismiss it.
I did.
Breakfast at Noon
Member
I wish he would come back and cliffy woukd fuck off. That would make me happy.
Because anonymity and because it gets the desired reaction from the target.
And let's not conflate sarkesian with fish. One makes videos about tropes and gets death threats because childish morons can't handle their precious medium being criticized over anything. One randomly tells thousands of people to choke on his dick after questionably winning an award, then has a breakdown because people react just as childishly back at him.
I don't care about fish or what he said except insofar as it illuminates how the internet hate train works, which is the subject of the video.
Whether Fish believe Japanese games suck doesn't matter. It is the reaction to a headline that says 'Fish says Jpn games suck' that is the interesting part.
GlamFM
Banned
We are all Phil Fish.
Saintguine
Member
Guy acts shitty to everyone, people treat him like shit. Not rocket science.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
Great video.
Phil, please. I need Fez II. Come back to us.
Phil, please. I need Fez II. Come back to us.
Pyccko
Member
Actually, he told one guy to suck his dick after the guy insulted him out of nowhere.
He started acting shitty because other people treated him like shit though.
Japan warriors strike again. Blocked. RT @ponpo Kamiya > Phil Fish.
IdreamofHIME
Member
The whole video is a lie.
He's famous (on the internet) because he made Fez, not because he's Phil Fish. If he hadn't made Fez, no one would care about him. No one would care about him thinking Japanese games suck or anything else he says.
The whole nickelback analogy is bullshit, because he did something they do. He created a piece of art (lol, nickelback) and sold it en masse.
..when you do that, you attract attention and become...famous.
Phil Fish is Nickelback.
He's famous (on the internet) because he made Fez, not because he's Phil Fish. If he hadn't made Fez, no one would care about him. No one would care about him thinking Japanese games suck or anything else he says.
The whole nickelback analogy is bullshit, because he did something they do. He created a piece of art (lol, nickelback) and sold it en masse.
..when you do that, you attract attention and become...famous.
Phil Fish is Nickelback.
interesting comparison, actually. nobody gives a shit when kamiya tells people to fuck off or talks shit about nintendo for changing bayo's boxart or blocks people for asking him which western games inspired him.
it is interesting to see how that gets changed to 'told everyone for no reason to suck his dick'.
If anyone can dig up that gdc talk, I'd like to hear the discussion of jpn games for myself.
& thanks for the thread op, really interesting.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
That video felt barely objective at all. It rightly rectifies a few misconceptions such as Fez not being his first game (though I'm absolutely sure that "Your games just suck" comment DID happen so I don't get the debate happening above, but it's a mute point when the original Q&A video where it happened has been taken down), but misconstrues a lot of others, such as leaving out the context of him and Blow constantly keeping people updated on Microsoft's shitty indie policies before suddenly blowing up when asked after their 180. Not that Beer's petty rant comes out looking any better, but simply labeling it as Fish 'being famous wrong' and ignoring everything leading up to it again is disingenuous.
I also thought the suggestion at the end that most other indies in Fish's position don't get the same treatment online he did is because they're not a social minority and Fish is simply an exception was just a quick way to hand-wave a completely legitimate point that why did Fish get so much hate in comparison to other indies in the exact some position as him? Hell, the super meat boy guys are just as brash and crude in similar ways to Fish, but they never remotely garnered the onslaught of internet harassment Fish does.
Only part I really agreed with are the questions about our current culture's almost pointless obsession with 'being internet famous' and his summation of Fish's behavior and mentality in regards to fucking around with his new found stardom, even if we reached different conclusions on why the backlash that happened happened.
EDIT:
Another point I think is that tying Fish to Anita feels like a desperate way to tie someone with an intentionally abrasive online persona with somebody who (despite any personal opinions I have on her work) someone who had a mostly neutral/pleasant persona online simply through the internet harassment they received. Just seems like another part of the video that tries to distance Fish from his comments, since the only tweet it really seems to justify was that 'choke on my dick' one.
I also thought the suggestion at the end that most other indies in Fish's position don't get the same treatment online he did is because they're not a social minority and Fish is simply an exception was just a quick way to hand-wave a completely legitimate point that why did Fish get so much hate in comparison to other indies in the exact some position as him? Hell, the super meat boy guys are just as brash and crude in similar ways to Fish, but they never remotely garnered the onslaught of internet harassment Fish does.
Only part I really agreed with are the questions about our current culture's almost pointless obsession with 'being internet famous' and his summation of Fish's behavior and mentality in regards to fucking around with his new found stardom, even if we reached different conclusions on why the backlash that happened happened.
Fez was good.
EDIT:
Internet anonymity naturally lends itself to some people being able to vent out their (probably) completely unrelated frustrations on targets who probably have little to no connection to themselves and hence don't have to fear any sort of repercussion of any kind. Not justifying it, just explaining what I think the most natural mentality behind that beahvior is.
Another point I think is that tying Fish to Anita feels like a desperate way to tie someone with an intentionally abrasive online persona with somebody who (despite any personal opinions I have on her work) someone who had a mostly neutral/pleasant persona online simply through the internet harassment they received. Just seems like another part of the video that tries to distance Fish from his comments, since the only tweet it really seems to justify was that 'choke on my dick' one.
TitusGroan
Banned
You can't look at why people react the way they did, yet say you don't care about what Fish said. People reacted to Fish because they thought he was acting like an arse. You need to understand what it was he said before you can evaluate whether the reaction to those comments was too strong or not.
The reaction to Fish saying Japanese games suck was, for the most part, people vehemently disagreeing with him and saying Japan still makes great games. I don't see what's more disagreeable about that side of the equation, as opposed to the original statement he made dismissing an entire country.
(；ﾟдﾟ
・・・Haha that's actually why I brought it up. I wonder why. Kamiya's insults are less personal? He swears at people
after making games?
He comes off looking sooooooooo bad. And actually, I think he ended up quitting the industry not long after that was openly viewable on youtube (when indie game the movie was out on dvd, amazingly this was one of the bonus deleted scenes). I think most copies of it were taken off youtube as copyright infringement.
I'm looking for it and they're all gone. Anthony Carboni ends up coming off almost even worse. And yes, I fully think there are elements of racism in the way Fish reacted in that exchange.
plasmawave
Banned
I don't know about Phil = fame.
People seem to really hate his guts because he acts like such a douche.
People seem to really hate his guts because he acts like such a douche.
The part where the narrator tells us the Phil Fish hater has invested too much hate and must commit to the hate encapsulates what's wrong with so many people. Especially online where the barrier of anonymity allows us much more freedom to be selective about our responses and what we allow ourselves to pay attention to.
Hell, I've been guilty of it before: I've committed myself to an opinion so much that, despite being offered logical counterpoints that I know are valid with a little voice in the corner of my brain shouting "pay attention you idiot", I've ignored and let my ego push my argument forward like it's the only truth.
Individually this isn't so much a problem, as eventually you will be alone and you will have the opportunity to consider what happened and realise how close minded you've been.
Online, with the re-enforcement given by other anonymous users who over-commit themselves to an idea, it's much easier to fall in line with the herd and find a sense of purpose with your new found brothers and sisters in arms than it is to self-reflect and consider things past the emotional or knee-jerk. And as we spend more and more time online, the alone time necessary for reflection grows less.
You see it all the time on Gaf, people put forward arguments, another person offers a well thought out counterpoint(s), and the original user ignores the salient stuff and chooses what they want to respond to to make their original point seem as secure as possible.
This isn't a new thing in terms of social interaction, but the internet makes it much more prevalent, especially when that opinion becomes popular.
Hell, I've been guilty of it before: I've committed myself to an opinion so much that, despite being offered logical counterpoints that I know are valid with a little voice in the corner of my brain shouting "pay attention you idiot", I've ignored and let my ego push my argument forward like it's the only truth.
Individually this isn't so much a problem, as eventually you will be alone and you will have the opportunity to consider what happened and realise how close minded you've been.
Online, with the re-enforcement given by other anonymous users who over-commit themselves to an idea, it's much easier to fall in line with the herd and find a sense of purpose with your new found brothers and sisters in arms than it is to self-reflect and consider things past the emotional or knee-jerk. And as we spend more and more time online, the alone time necessary for reflection grows less.
You see it all the time on Gaf, people put forward arguments, another person offers a well thought out counterpoint(s), and the original user ignores the salient stuff and chooses what they want to respond to to make their original point seem as secure as possible.
This isn't a new thing in terms of social interaction, but the internet makes it much more prevalent, especially when that opinion becomes popular.
Pyccko
Member
The video of the talk where he said "your games just suck" to the Japanese fella is, I believe, only available in the Indie Game: The Movie Special Edition on Steam these days, for anyone that wants to see it. I think they also did some followup interviews with folks about that talk and the shitstorm that ensued, but I'm not sure about that.
Yup. See it all the time and have definitely been guilty of it myself. It can be very difficult to take a step back from a situation and realize you may have been in the wrong.
Did anyone actually here what he said though? or did they just read a 5 word headline?
I think that is what the youtube guy was getting at with the 'japanese games suck' comment and the gdc talk segment. It was that Fish's actual take on Jpn games was deeper and more nuanced, as the back and forth between him and blow demonstrated.
But that isn't what people want to read and wont get the sites pageviews. Hence the simple headline and the gamerhate that followed. People only cared about what he said insofar as it confirmed their belief that 'Phil Fish is an Asshole' so they could go on hating him.
Moreover, Fish never had any power in gaming over anything, so why did people care so much and deeply over what they thought he said?
Technosteve
Banned
Top of my head Crackdown, Fable series, Viva Pinata, Batman series, total war series, alien isolation, dirt series, no man's sky, beyond, heavy rain, new tomb raider, new deus ex.
French games? Entire ubisoft catalog
This is my ultimate issue with him. I don't care whether or not you're a dick. Hell.... I think being a dick can make you more interesting (looking at you Kamiya). The problem is that he breaks down at the repercussions... which was fine before because it never affected me on a personal level.
Until it did. When he cancelled Fez II. Now where I used to be a fan of his (Fez is fucking great) I am no longer. I would love to see what new ideas he had in store for us but even if he did come back he proved to be so volatile I don't think I could allow myself to get invested in the work of a person like that - not when they could just randomly take off at any given moment.
Griddlelol
Banned
Critical acclaim doesn't mean much. Hell, the AC franchise is universally loved by critics. It's still boring as shit game design with terrible narrative. His point is still valid, he doesn't like Japanese games.
Note: I'm not agreeing with Fish, I love many Japanese games, I'm just pointing out that you said something pretty pointless.
TitusGroan
Banned
Unfortunately the guys behind Indie Game The Movie have pulled all vidoes of the incident from Youtube. However, here is Fish's follow up to the debacle that he posted on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/PHIL_FISH/status/176978474634969088
"im sorry japanese guy! i was a bit rough, but your country's games are fucking terrible nowadays."
So yeah, those are some real nuanced views he's espousing there.
Fish was, at the time, one of the most famous and influential indie developers in the industry. He was, in many ways, acting as on of the faces of the indie movement. Whether you like it or not, when you're in a position of prominence like that, you act with a bit of self-restraint.
I saw the entire thing, and wrote out a detailed response of exactly why I think it has racist elements in his reaction and view of gaming (and as a reaction to an Edge article similar to this video in the OP here). I wrote it out in a blog post that had the whole GDC video embedded in it so people could watch it for themselves, and then the video was taken off youtube a couple days later (not because of me or anything, but that video did not last long at all on youtube. It was so damning that it was very quickly taken down.).
http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/Sh...as-bigoted-opinions-about-gaming-258949.phtml
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Gotta love how you pull the old tired tactic of attaching all the most extreme and vitriolic comments to the majority, despite them demonstrably being attributed to a minority of keyboard warriors. I never ceased to be amazed at how people seem to get away with bullshit argument tactics like this in a bid to dismiss legitimate criticism.
Well, I suppose if you ignore all the things Fish said to make people strongly dislike him, then it probably is easy to pretend the "internet hate machine" is completely irrational and mis-guided in its distaste of Fish.
The reaction to such an ignorant, uninformed and flat-out stupid comment was the result of it being such an ignorant, misinformed and flat-out stupid comment. When you consider the context in which the comment was said (complete with uproarious laughter from Fish's fellow peers that rival 4chan in terms of sheer vitriolic condescension), and I think people were quite justified in telling Fish to go fuck himself.
Riposte
Member
IIRC, all they did was criticize Zelda for having too many tutorials, which is kind of a joke with a broader understanding of Japanese videogames in mind. I seriously question Phil's ability to even come up with a meaningful judgment - he was still slaving over his game at the time and too busy to be a videogame connoisseur.
Kamiya isn't hated like Phil because he is at the core very likable, a free spirit with little sign of resentment in his character.
Coreda
Member
Was this video made by Phil Fish himself? Lol, what on earth. It's like a Phil Fish apologist video, although I see the author is attempting to make it into some point about internet fame.
Didn't understand the random last point about Fez being his third indie game, either. Regardless, I never take headlines and news pieces to be the sum total of anyone anyway, and realize the media/forums/blogs like to blow things up. Doesn't mean people can't criticize negative statements someone makes in public though.
Didn't understand the random last point about Fez being his third indie game, either. Regardless, I never take headlines and news pieces to be the sum total of anyone anyway, and realize the media/forums/blogs like to blow things up. Doesn't mean people can't criticize negative statements someone makes in public though.
Pyccko
Member
I believe it was taken off youtube because they (the Indie Game: The Movie folks) started selling it.
A common insult thrown at Phil Fish before Fez came out was that he had no right to talk shit about games, because he'd never actually made one.
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