z0m3le said:

I think you misunderstood, they should bring Espresso as a co-processor that handles OS, BC and VC, it's 12mm^2 on 45nm process, it's absolutely tiny and I'm talking about shrinking it to 20nm process which would allow it to fit inside the GPU die.

They should go with an AMD APU using ARM or X86 (ARM is preferred because it's better and more forward thinking IMO)

Click to expand...

Ahh my bad

z0m3le said:

I think you misunderstood, they should bring Espresso as a co-processor that handles OS, BC and VC, it's 12mm^2 on 45nm process, it's absolutely tiny and I'm talking about shrinking it to 20nm process which would allow it to fit inside the GPU die.

They should go with an AMD APU using ARM or X86 (ARM is preferred because it's better and more forward thinking IMO)

Click to expand...

So, something like a stripped down Kabini with an Espresso co-processor? I don't know if Nintendo would go for something like that...

Nostremitus said:

So, something like a stripped down Kabini with an Espresso co-processor? I don't know if Nintendo would go for something like that...

Click to expand...

They already are doing it with their handhelds and have been for a while, it makes a lot of sense for them, and no not Kabini, it would be puma+ or ARM cores from AMD based on 20nm process node. It's honestly much more likely than anything else they could do considering: Their comments about bringing Wii U architecture over, IBM's stance on creating to chips currently, their BC/VC library, as well as their OS and finally Nintendo's history with AMD, ATI, ArtX and even S3.

I don't think it's likely for them to use any other company considering AMD is likely going to give them the best deal price wise as well.

Log4Girlz said:

Buttons is death. The next handheld has to be nothing but screen. Sure, it can have a sliding controller area to use for many games. Buttons are a layer of complexity that will put off MANY people. Kids are already being raised on touch only. Getting rid of touch would be one of the all-time dumbest decisions in this industry.

Click to expand...

And getting rid of buttons wouldn't be? Buttons aren't pushing people interested in gaming to buying a mobile device over a handheld gaming system.

Kids aren't buying this theoretical device for themselves, their parents are buying it for them and don't care about the buttons. These same kids "being raised on touch only" don't seem to have any trouble using an Xbox controller. Unless, of course, you see the 4DS as a device that's going to get non-"gamer" kids interested in gaming. (Why would someone only used to F2P iOS games buy a $40-60 handheld game?)

Like I already said, I'm fine with Nintendo keeping touch if they move to a capacitive screen.

How are you going to translate series like Smash Bros., Mario Kart, Kid Icarus, Donkey Kong, and Star Fox to touch and accelerometer-only controls without feeling like mobile games?

z0m3le said:

I really think this is why they will bring back the "3rd pillar" strategy, just make a 4inch 540p ipod touch type device, (275dpi) give it 2 shoulder buttons disguised as volume rockers and a dpad or slide pad that clicks like a home button. throwing in another button or 2 on the other side of the display could work if it looked fine, I think the entire diamond input (abxy) could be pulled off. This would be more a VC/BC device, could even play 3DS games possibly. Would come in under $100 and be a single screen device.

Click to expand...

Since we know Nintendo won't eat the cost of the device and wants to make a profit on hardware, it would probably be a struggle to get the price under $100.

z0m3le said:

They already are doing it with their handhelds and have been for a while, it makes a lot of sense for them, and no not Kabini, it would be puma+ or ARM cores from AMD based on 20nm process node. It's honestly much more likely than anything else they could do considering: Their comments about bringing Wii U architecture over, IBM's stance on creating to chips currently, their BC/VC library, as well as their OS and finally Nintendo's history with AMD, ATI, ArtX and even S3.

I don't think it's likely for them to use any other company considering AMD is likely going to give them the best deal price wise as well.

Click to expand...

Not sure why your quote showed up twice, I'll edit that... odd...

Anyway, I'm not confident Nintendo will use ARM cores in their next home console and they are aiming at software compatability between their next console and handheld. The 20nm GPU products from both AMD and NVIDIA have been delayed time and again, presumable due to production difficulties. Since a 20nm APU would need these 20nm AMD cores and Nintendo refuses to use processes that aren't mature there's hardly any real chance they'll go 20nm.

z0m3le said:

I really think this is why they will bring back the "3rd pillar" strategy, just make a 4inch 540p ipod touch type device, (275dpi) give it 2 shoulder buttons disguised as volume rockers and a dpad or slide pad that clicks like a home button. throwing in another button or 2 on the other side of the display could work if it looked fine, I think the entire diamond input (abxy) could be pulled off. This would be more a VC/BC device, could even play 3DS games possibly. Would come in under $100 and be a single screen device.

Click to expand...

They're definitely looking to add form factors. In this case, I think they'll start with a larger tablet-sized device and then shrink it down as time goes on. Take a look at Fujitsu's dual touch resistive screens - I think that's the way to go for 3DS BC and to maintain the cool drawing/art aspect their devices have going on.

The solution to the buttons conundrum is the modular handheld patent which was published earlier this year. Ship the console with an original DS button configuration and launch with a hardcore game that comes with 2 analog stick modules.

japtor said:

Yeah Apple's cores (both Swift and Cyclone) were custom ISA implementations of their own design rather than modified ARM designs.

Nope.

Unless everything is completely identical devs will have to test for both platforms regardless.

The issue I have with the idea about needing the same hardware to ease software development is that it just leads down the same path that they've been on, which is what I think they're ultimately trying to avoid (hopefully/finally). Having software dev tied to hardware forces their hardware choices rather than picking potentially better solutions, not just between portable/console but every future generation. Major changes within the same architecture would screw them too as far as optimizations.

All that I could see Espresso sticking around as a coprocessor of some sort for their next home console too (depending on die shrinks/efficiency/cost), although I'd be surprised if it got used in a portable just cause the tighter tolerances and limited benefit.

Click to expand...

What strikes me is Iwata's quote about ground up effort no longer being necessary for each generation. Well, technology is not standing still and they'd have to be absolutely nuts if they think staying with the same hardware components until the end of time is a reasonable proposition. Developing an OS with a thicker abstraction layer (hopefully allowing for some low level calls as well) may be exactly what they need to keep their software pipeline flowing.

You're correct, however, that certain hardware-specific optimizations will probably need to be made either way, such as resolution and input (touch vs Wii Remote? If they can fend off Phillips?). I get the feeling from Miyamoto's comments that not all games will be cross compatible, so a recompile will be a fairly insignificant step.

From what I've been reading, having a single ISA is relatively low on the list of important things to devs. Devs have been going back and forth between ARM, x86, and Power for years. What Nintendo need to do, and what Takeda indicates they will slowly do, is to better integrate their tools and libraries with industry standard development environments, which I take to mean Visual Studio.

That and they need more robust SIMD on the CPU. Those two things seem to be the major issues for devs this cycle.

Nostremitus said:

Not sure why your quote showed up twice, I'll edit that... odd...

Anyway, I'm not confident Nintendo will use ARM cores in their next home console and they are aiming at software compatability between their next console and handheld. The 20nm GPU products from both AMD and NVIDIA have been delayed time and again, presumable due to production difficulties. Since a 20nm APU would need these 20nm AMD cores and Nintendo refuses to use processes that aren't mature there's hardly any real chance they'll go 20nm.

Click to expand...

I think 20nm is a reasonable guess, in part because the amount of on-die SRAM they require will take up too much space on 28nm. 20nm products are shipping this year. If Nintendo go the semi-custom route (and it appears they have, as AMD are not licensing GCN cores for "full custom" designs), they'll be pretty much forced to keep up a bit more with the flow of technology. The timing was odd this generation, and they were dealing with Renesas, who were getting out of the fab business. Look back to Gamecube and Wii - Nintendo were using current nodes at those launches.

Fourth Storm said:

They're definitely looking to add form factors. In this case, I think they'll start with a larger tablet-sized device and then shrink it down as time goes on. Take a look at Fujitsu's dual touch resistive screens - I think that's the way to go for 3DS BC and to maintain the cool drawing/art aspect their devices have going on.

The solution to the buttons conundrum is the modular handheld patent which was published earlier this year. Ship the console with an original DS button configuration and launch with a hardcore game that comes with 2 analog stick modules.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I think they will launch a product a year starting in 2016 until all 3 are launched, I think a pocket size device is more fitting though as the DS line is more of a portable system than a mobile one. It's something you take with you to play for chunks of time, where as a pocket size itouch type device, could be played for just a few moments at a time. It really does go back to Nintendo's old 3rd pillar idea, and we know how they like to bring those forward, a modern day GBA micro to compete with smart phones (of course this would be a fairly large device in comparison, but still.

What strikes me is Iwata's quote about ground up effort no longer being necessary for each generation. Well, technology is not standing still and they'd have to be absolutely nuts if they think staying with the same hardware components until the end of time is a reasonable proposition. Developing an OS with a thicker abstraction layer (hopefully allowing for some low level calls as well) may be exactly what they need to keep their software pipeline flowing.

Click to expand...

Maybe its just me, but I think they are talking about how Wii's BC was built right into the Wii U's GPU, that they don't have to come up with completely different (unrelated) hardware every cycle, AMD can fill Nintendo's needs for the foreseeable future thanks to them covering all power envelopes (both wattage and performance) in 2+ years. If they bring Espresso onboard as a co processor, it would simplify everything they are doing. It's not a bad chip for general computing and would handle their current OS which I think they need to bring forward to their next devices to have any chance, it also doesn't make sense to bring anything else from the Wii U architecture forward (minus low latency ram)

You're correct, however, that certain hardware-specific optimizations will probably need to be made either way, such as resolution and input (touch vs Wii Remote? If they can fend off Phillips?). I get the feeling from Miyamoto's comments that not all games will be cross compatible, so a recompile will be a fairly insignificant step.

From what I've been reading, having a single ISA is relatively low on the list of important things to devs. Devs have been going back and forth between ARM, x86, and Power for years. What Nintendo need to do, and what Takeda indicates they will slowly do, is to better integrate their tools and libraries with industry standard development environments, which I take to mean Visual Studio.

That and they need more robust SIMD on the CPU. Those two things seem to be the major issues for devs this cycle.

Click to expand...

Yes, however for Nintendo's own software (not just the games, but the system features/os) they will certainly need to stay with one type of processor, unless of course they are going with what I've been talking about, then it wouldn't matter much but could still be nice for them. (especially with an ARM powered AMD APU)

I think 20nm is a reasonable guess, in part because the amount of on-die SRAM they require will take up too much space on 28nm. 20nm products are shipping this year. If Nintendo go the semi-custom route (and it appears they have, as AMD are not licensing GCN cores for "full custom" designs), they'll be pretty much forced to keep up a bit more with the flow of technology. The timing was odd this generation, and they were dealing with Renesas, who were getting out of the fab business. Look back to Gamecube and Wii - Nintendo were using current nodes at those launches.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is why my optimistic Nintendo 2017 console would use 16/14nm.

z0m3le said:

I think you misunderstood, they should bring Espresso as a co-processor that handles OS, BC and VC, it's 12mm^2 on 45nm process, it's absolutely tiny and I'm talking about shrinking it to 20nm process which would allow it to fit inside the GPU die.

Click to expand...

But wouldn't it make more sense to shrink the PICA200 and put that inside the GPU instead? The drop from 65 nm to 20 should make it quite compact. Maybe they'll add Espresso to the CPU part of the SoC.

Nickodemos said:

But wouldn't it make more sense to shrink the PICA200 and put that inside the GPU instead? The drop from 65 nm to 20 should make it quite compact. Maybe they'll add Espresso to the CPU part of the SoC.

Click to expand...

The cpu and gpu are in the same die, it's an APU.

Fourth Storm said:

What strikes me is Iwata's quote about ground up effort no longer being necessary for each generation. Well, technology is not standing still and they'd have to be absolutely nuts if they think staying with the same hardware components until the end of time is a reasonable proposition. Developing an OS with a thicker abstraction layer (hopefully allowing for some low level calls as well) may be exactly what they need to keep their software pipeline flowing.

You're correct, however, that certain hardware-specific optimizations will probably need to be made either way, such as resolution and input (touch vs Wii Remote? If they can fend off Phillips?). I get the feeling from Miyamoto's comments that not all games will be cross compatible, so a recompile will be a fairly insignificant step.

From what I've been reading, having a single ISA is relatively low on the list of important things to devs. Devs have been going back and forth between ARM, x86, and Power for years. What Nintendo need to do, and what Takeda indicates they will slowly do, is to better integrate their tools and libraries with industry standard development environments, which I take to mean Visual Studio.

That and they need more robust SIMD on the CPU. Those two things seem to be the major issues for devs this cycle.

Click to expand...

I've mentioned it before in some other thread(s), I figure a simple way of thinking about it is computers. Hell that's what they've essentially been all this time from a hardware standpoint, it's the software side that makes them consoles. I feel like "thicker abstraction layer" kinda overstates it (...even if technically true?) cause it's not like it's really anything new in the computing world. You have to port stuff between platforms on completely identical hardware cause the software differences (barring VMs and stuff like Wine), different hardware is another hurdle but it's minor when you're not necessarily writing for the hardware at all in the first place. You make stuff for Windows, OS X, iOS, Android, etc., not for x86 or ARM.

Whatever the hell they're doing now (that either already started with Wii U or is in the process) it sounds like the main key is that they won't be blowing it up and restarting like they've done in the past. Whether they stick with PPC or go ARM or x86 or both, the software side is what makes it all work.

Like Apple's been able to get through 68k to PPC, classic Mac OS to OS X, PPC to x86, and tacked on an OS X variant running on ARM. There were transition pains but nothing like Nintendo's cause they had prepared bridges for developers. Ironically I'm thinking the hardest transition was classic to OS X, the one with no hardware change. That's probably the most analogous example to Nintendo's usual way of doing things, sure there was Carbon and the classic environment, but everything else was completely new. But since then they've been consistently iterating upon things into a mature software platform (or two).

z0m3le said:

Maybe its just me, but I think they are talking about how Wii's BC was built right into the Wii U's GPU, that they don't have to come up with completely different (unrelated) hardware every cycle, AMD can fill Nintendo's needs for the foreseeable future thanks to them covering all power envelopes (both wattage and performance) in 2+ years. If they bring Espresso onboard as a co processor, it would simplify everything they are doing. It's not a bad chip for general computing and would handle their current OS which I think they need to bring forward to their next devices to have any chance, it also doesn't make sense to bring anything else from the Wii U architecture forward (minus low latency ram)

Yes, however for Nintendo's own software (not just the games, but the system features/os) they will certainly need to stay with one type of processor, unless of course they are going with what I've been talking about, then it wouldn't matter much but could still be nice for them. (especially with an ARM powered AMD APU)

Click to expand...

If they keep it around for the home console (again I wouldn't be surprised) I imagine it'd be for whatever coprocessor stuff and otherwise purely BC. Nintendo can port their own software over to whatever new hardware if they want, just cause it's running on Espresso now doesn't mean it's limited to it until the end of eternity.

Do we have any indication that leads us to believe that they have secured a deal with Nintendo for this, other than namedropping the 3DS?

For all we care, Ninty might pull another "Terga" on us (end up with another graphics chip provider) to suit their needs. Most likely another Japanese firm too.

sfried said:

Do we have any indication that leads us to believe that they have secured a deal with Nintendo for this, other than namedropping the 3DS?

For all we care, Ninty might pull another "Terga" on us (end up with another graphics chip provider) to suit their needs. Most likely another Japanese firm too.

Click to expand...

Not likely because of their handheld and homeconsole synergy plans and they won't drop AMD for their home console. So they will adjust their handheld architecture to fit into their next console plans.

cw_sasuke said:

Not likely because of their handheld and homeconsole synergy plans and they won't drop AMD for their home console. So they will adjust their handheld architecture to fit into their next console plans.

Click to expand...

Or are they adjusting their home console plans instead?

DUN DUN DUUUUUUN

StevieP said:

The current major 3rd parties don't feel there's money to be made on an ecosystem that falls outside of their focus of the16-30yo male. They will continue to feel that way no matter the hardware on the table. Even if they were exactly the same as other console makers. It's best if you seperate the hardware from that equation, as it has very little to do with it. Some people here are barking up the right trees in that regard.

Click to expand...

It's because Nintendo doesn't really try talking to them. If they did that along with catering to their hardware desires, it would mean a larger userbase, meaning more people buying their games instead of foregoing them.

Also, yes, 3rd parties do use ARM... for mobile. It's the x86 porting I'm talking about.

maybe a tablet with dpad and buttons

Will AMD Supply Chips for Nintendo's Next Handheld Console?

AMD is interested in dedicated gaming hardware

An interview in which AMD's vice president and general manager indicates that the company is interested in the dedicated portable market has recently been brought to light by a member of the NeoGaf gaming forum . The June interview had previously flown mostly under the radar, but its contents offer an interesting glimpse into a partnership that could have a major impact on the portable market.

The interview was originally published on a Barron's blog, and, in it, AMD executive Saeid Moshkelani points to dedicated handhelds as an area of interest for the company. Given that Sony is very unlikely to ready a traditional successor to its PlayStation Vita, this would suggest that the chipmaker is looking at a deal with Nintendo. Moshkelani also pointed to the 3DS as evidence that dedicated platforms were still moving solid numbers.

Click to expand...

Is there money to be made with a dedicated portable gaming system?

Nintendo's next handheld platform is up against a wide array of challenges, but that doesn't mean that a deal to supply chips wouldn't be largely beneficial to AMD. The company has done a good job of securing contracts to provide processing units for dedicated gaming devices. It will provide chips for Sony's PlayStation 4 and Microsoft's Xbox One throughout their respective lifecycles, and both consoles look to do healthy numbers.

Completing a deal with Nintendo to deliver processing units for its next platforms would be a big win for AMD, even if those platforms sell less than their predecessors. For those interested in taking a position in AMD, the announcement of a deal with Nintendo would likely provide a notable valuation bump.

The company currently provides a highly diversified range of chips that are suitable for a wide range of products, so the suggestion that it will work with Nintendo on a new portable is not unreasonable. AMD already provides the graphics processing unit for the Wii U, and Nintendo has stated that the company is interested in using its current home console's hardware architecture as a template for future gaming platforms.

Click to expand...

What would a deal with AMD mean for Nintendo?

For Nintendo, partnering with AMD for its next portable could be a smart move toward achieving the goal of a unified hardware ecosystem. The move could also help The House That Mario Built secure more third-party support, as working with more simplified AMD hardware could make porting to Nintendo's consoles an easier endeavor.

The possibility that AMD will supply the chips for Nintendo's next handheld also suggests that it might play a role in Nintendo's still mysterious "Quality of Life" business. Nintendo has stated that QOL will not be dependent on wearable tech, but it's not unreasonable to think that the budding enterprise will have some manner of hardware component. If that's the case, the company will likely want to aim for some manner of synergy between its health-based business and its gaming platforms. As such, chances are good that QOL is also being considered as a part of Nintendo's unified hardware ecosystem.

Foolish final thoughts

If AMD supplies chips for Nintendo's next batch of hardware, it would create a substantial new revenue stream for the company. For Nintendo, the move would be a smart bit of strategy to help modernize its hardware platforms. The complex custom hardware in Nintendo's systems has made porting software more difficult than necessary and contributed to the lack of third-party support.

A partnership between AMD and Nintendo would be beneficial for both companies. For investors interested in gaining from such an arrangement, AMD looks to be the better option. The chipmaker would see significant benefits if it supplies processing units for Nintendo's next platforms even if the devices don't put up massive sales.

Click to expand...

http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...upply-chips-for-nintendos-next-handhel-2.aspx

GAF > internet > GAF