This has the potential to effect everyone.
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"PlayStation Now Is Here. Streaming is Popularizing. God Save Us." by SuperBunnyHop
- Thread starter Protagonist Jake
- Start date
My experience with streaming games is that my connection wasn't even fast enough to run Onlive. I bet I'm not alone on that, and even before getting into the inherent problems with streaming even when it works the general shittiness of a lot of people's internet is going to heavily preclude it's growth for a decent amount of time given there are few signs of things improving for now.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Online gaming has no effect on singleplayer games and how they are designed.
Streaming media has no effect on how it is created
Latency for streaming games is never going to go away until science finds a way to break the laws of physics and send data faster than the speed of light.
Even in some perfect world where they place a data centre within 100km of everyone everywhere and they manage to reduce the lag of encoding + decoding to be effectively 0 and they fix the problems with routing connections to people (telia anyone?) and noone uses wifi in their homes anymore... even then you'll still be looking at at least an extra frame of input lag. (right now and for a long time to come it will be a lot more than that)
If streaming becomes the default way to play games it will drastically influence how games are designed (for the worse)
Just because you are apparently immune (or oblivious) to several frames of delay in your games and can put up with onlive doesn't mean it isn't highly undesirable.
But hey, as long as you get yours bro
Metallix87
Member
That's only part of the problem. The other part is the destruction of ownership.
It seems like a lot of the argument in this video is about preservation which I think is BS. Considering that everything or almost everything currently has a physical form Discs or Carts what not. As long as the files exist somewhere they can be backed up on SSD/Hard Disks just waiting for the day when the emulator exists to play them(which it will most likely exist at some point as we have seen in the past.) The only way this is a bad thing is if somehow there is a game or a console that is completely streaming only which I doubt will ever happen since bandwidth in the US is extremely limited as it is elsewhere in the world. To even stress the point further if this was to become a regular thing whats to say somebody doesn't figure out a way to rip the files being streamed to them. There is always a way as we have seen in the past to preserve games. It may not be perfect all the time but people always find a way.
One other point/question won't emulation past PS3 be easier now that PS4/XBONE are using Intel Based Processors. I dunno I honestly just see streaming as a way to supplement and offer easier access to old games, not completely prevent users from owning a physical copy of the game.
One other point/question won't emulation past PS3 be easier now that PS4/XBONE are using Intel Based Processors. I dunno I honestly just see streaming as a way to supplement and offer easier access to old games, not completely prevent users from owning a physical copy of the game.
All except for the part where the actual free to play games aren't tied to the service...
Games as a service is certainly going to grow, maybe even beyond its heyday at the height of arcades, but I very much doubt it's ever going to outright replace games as a product. They'll be alternative choices in most cases.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
That would be nice.
Paying $1.99 for four hours of VF5 with input lag is a winning value proposition in what world?
Metallix87
Member
Excuse me? Guess again. Any of the free monthly games are tied to your PS Plus subscription. That "instant game collection" or whatever they call it is basically akin to Netflix's streaming library.
That's illogical, since it'll directly compete with the more lucrative option for console makers and publishers.
True, because it is potentially awesome. If you'd have told me 20 years ago that at some point Id be able to watch hundreds of episodes of se of the best TV shows ever made and thousands of movies whenever I wanted for about the price of two chicken sandwiches a month, I'd have called you crazy because nothing that offers that great a value could be real. And yet, there's Netflix.
You now have the potential for a similar game service, streaming potentially hundreds of games, anywhere, at any time, and you want people to think it sucks? Absurd.
And BTW, we still have new shows on regular TV, and even those TV shows made for streaming services get physical releases. As long as there's money to be made, games will continue to be sold on physical media. Any claims to the contrary are baseless fear mongering.
Perhaps you may want to explain why you consider this video to be "stupid and ridiculous?" Also, avatar quote.
Metallix87
Member
"Regular TV" thrives on advertising bucks. That won't go away.
Physical releases, however, are already in decline, so using that as an example only furthers my point.
By the way, I think people should think it sucks. Ownership is being taken from you. Latency is a major issue. Is convenience that much more important than either of those to you?
Actually...yes...online gaming does have an effect on single player games and how they're designed. Many games have their offline modes (campaigns) built with a co-op experience in mind...where the entire single player experience is designed to accommodate multiple players even if it's only one player playing. Additionally many games are implementing social aspects into their single player experiences that rely on an internet connection (think DriveClub or Dark/Demon Souls) to retrieve the data. Sure in the end these additions are optional (they do affect the single player experience though) however nowhere in my post did I advocate an all streaming future nor was that my point when bringing up those two advances in technology.
This is a big assumption and I see no proof that even if streaming did gain mainstream success that it would become the default way to play. Streaming video and music has been around for quite a while now but you still see physical media and digital distribution abundantly.
I never said it was perfect, I said it worked extremely well for me. Like I said...I've been gaming since the 2600 days (currently own all the current gen consoles too) and I think it works extremely well. Your experience with streaming gaming is not indicative of everyone's experience.
BlastProcessing
Member
Come on, Ocaso, this isn't a fair comparison. A TV show is something you watch once or twice, and then you're done with it. Same with a movie. It's static content that lends itself to the rental model because you're not going to be re-watching a favorite episode once every few months.
A video game can be hundreds of hours long, with the player making many save files and playing and replaying in different ways over a period of years. There will be periods of months or years in which you won't touch it at all, and then suddenly you'll get a hankering to play it again. The traditional ownership model is the only way to handle this -- you pull the game off your shelf and you start playing, with no need to make any extra payments to a publisher. You paid for it, and you can now use it at your leisure for as long as your hardware holds out.
The subscription model means that you're paying whether you play or not. This is terrible for all but the hardcore players who have made a lifelong commitment to gaming on a particular company's platform.
ShinMaruku
Member
Doing some testing on Ninja Gaiden 3:RE on PSN, it works somewhat ok, I feel some of my inputs are off but it works really well. However game does not look as sharp as it should. I will add more when I unlock the fastest character in the game and test my I-frame grabs.
DOWN
Banned
Do you need input response for a continuos stream of music/movies?
TrojanBlade
Member
WTF video...from the time I had with the beta it provided a really good experience. Of course not everyone or every country is ready for this. But it is there for people who can afford it and have decent connection to play games on it. This is the future eventually if when there won't be any latency/BW issues. But not happening any time soon.
ShinMaruku
Member
Latency is still too much for me to play NG:RE. 
Evil Monkey DTT
Banned
I agree with him for a certain extend. What easier way to go all digital then claim "we are future proofing the console through streaming". Every game I buy is either physical or always on a hard-drive. I want to be sure years from now I can hold onto my game. I replay the metal gear series every year, and play older titles way more then people would expect. Other then mmos all games should remain available to play forever.
ShinMaruku
Member
I also don't want to be at the mercy of connections from a corporation who by their very nature will skimp on latency.
Killing_Joke
Member
PSNow is just a service. Another way to make some revenue. It isn't going to replace the old model anytime soon, If at all.
JimJamJones
Member
So, this dude is essentially getting upset over an optional service that doesn't affect him playing his PS4 in any way, shape or form?
legacyzero
Banned
Tried the beta. Couldn't do it. CRAP image quality, and even just a split second input delay was enough for me to hate it.
They're afraid that streaming will become good enough to replace localized playing and that the renting model will be pushed instead of ownership. That still hasn't happened with other digital content though, as you can freely stream or purchase/store digital films today, and I doubt publishers will ever take away the option for you to drop $60 on the spot for ownership.
CambriaRising
Member
Yup, and this isn't going to change.
legacyzero
Banned
Did you even watch the video?
He's saying that he's worried that if it's successful, how it can harm gaming if Console Makers and Publishers take advantage of it exclusively, much like they do with things now to wring every dollar they can out of you, and how it could ruin the legacy of that game.
7DollarHagane
Banned
It could be fine for games that don't require real time interaction or quick response. Just like mobile games are okay for extremely simple or menu based games.
I'd love to rent and play south park stick of truth on PS now.
I'd love to rent and play south park stick of truth on PS now.
But south parks combat requires a quick response...
7DollarHagane
Banned
I haven't played it, is it like paper Mario or something? Thought it was just menu based RPG combat.
Yeah you have to time your attacks to get crits and blocking is time based also.
EmptySpace
Banned
ignorance.
streaming games will be the future. tech will only get better. someone has to start from somewhere.
there will come a time when the speed of the data going back and forth will be as fast or faster than what we have for local machines.
streaming games will be the future. tech will only get better. someone has to start from somewhere.
there will come a time when the speed of the data going back and forth will be as fast or faster than what we have for local machines.
What about the ownership and archival aspect?
I find the streaming service is great for non-hardcore games that doesn't require precise input (like dmc or mgr), it's a great option no one is forced to use it.
and I don't see the age of "all streaming" coming anytime soon, everybody should learn from microsoft's situation and the X180.
and I don't see the age of "all streaming" coming anytime soon, everybody should learn from microsoft's situation and the X180.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Unlike DD, I can't see this being anywhere near as popular. I was much more into the DD movement than this. Even if it's just an optional service bringing some added games and backwards compatibility.
ShutterMunster
Junior Member
Ownership is dying. People don't care about owning things anymore. Gamers seem to be the last wave of consumers that care. Netflix is huge, Hulu is huge, Spotify is huge, iTunes has been forced to do streaming and bought Beats in large part for their brand and streaming service. The age of people owning all this content is over.
Archival is a different story.
This guy is saying a whole lot of nothing right now.
"You can't access or alter the files that make the game"
Ummmm okay I guess if you want to hack into ps3 games and tinker with code this is bad.
"No conceptualization of the game being a hard physical product that you could swap memory cards on"
Uh yeah kinda the point. Want them to mail you a blu ray every time you rent?
"No modding, no homebrewing"
Uh it's not a PC so yeah.
"Latency and Lag are bad"
Yeah they are but they will only get better.
"This will eliminate competitive play"
No it won't. Discs are still coming out.
"Streaming services aren't popular"
Not really a negative or criticism.
"When you purchase a digital game you can access that on your hard drive"
No not really.
"You can crack a backup off your hard drive"
On consoles no you can't unless they are hacked.
"Sony might make Killzone 6 exclusive to it and then after five years say we can't stream it anymore so they can control gaming history mannnnnnnnnn! What if sony closes then you can't stream games!"
No they won't.
"The prices are bad, but even if they fix them I won't like it cause reasons."
(._.)
"Companies want to rayify these complaints"
(._.)
"You can't access or alter the files that make the game"
Ummmm okay I guess if you want to hack into ps3 games and tinker with code this is bad.
"No conceptualization of the game being a hard physical product that you could swap memory cards on"
Uh yeah kinda the point. Want them to mail you a blu ray every time you rent?
"No modding, no homebrewing"
Uh it's not a PC so yeah.
"Latency and Lag are bad"
Yeah they are but they will only get better.
"This will eliminate competitive play"
No it won't. Discs are still coming out.
"Streaming services aren't popular"
Not really a negative or criticism.
"When you purchase a digital game you can access that on your hard drive"
No not really.
"You can crack a backup off your hard drive"
On consoles no you can't unless they are hacked.
"Sony might make Killzone 6 exclusive to it and then after five years say we can't stream it anymore so they can control gaming history mannnnnnnnnn! What if sony closes then you can't stream games!"
No they won't.
"The prices are bad, but even if they fix them I won't like it cause reasons."
(._.)
"Companies want to rayify these complaints"
(._.)
CosmicQueso
Member
Change scares me.
The VCR killed television.
DVD destroyed movie theatres.
Allowing sports teams to broadcast home games on local networks made attendance plummet.
Television killed radio.
Streaming will kill gaming.
The VCR killed television.
DVD destroyed movie theatres.
Allowing sports teams to broadcast home games on local networks made attendance plummet.
Television killed radio.
Streaming will kill gaming.
SketchTheArtist
Member
I love how the majority of the people in this thread haven't watched the video and are passing off judgement over it by reading the title only.
Some very interesting points are raised and personally, if services (streaming AND ISPs) are going to get better, it could be a good alternative, but physical/digital copies where the ownership belongs to the customer should always be the main way to go.
Even looking at digital downloads on console where a majority of the games available are are two or even three times the prices at retail. Digital should be a way to pass on the price cuts linked with physical distribution and packaging to the consumers. It seems to be common sense but I have no idea why it's not a reality.
Some very interesting points are raised and personally, if services (streaming AND ISPs) are going to get better, it could be a good alternative, but physical/digital copies where the ownership belongs to the customer should always be the main way to go.
Even looking at digital downloads on console where a majority of the games available are are two or even three times the prices at retail. Digital should be a way to pass on the price cuts linked with physical distribution and packaging to the consumers. It seems to be common sense but I have no idea why it's not a reality.
Sure was the direction Xbox One was originally heading into. They had to cool their jets, but now there are an awful lot of digital access/streaming services popping up like this and EA Access, with EA Access already starting to pull some exclusivity shenanigans. With the other publishers making it clear they are watching and coming up with their own services. When Xbox went back on their DRM plans I said way back then it wasn't over, that now it was just going to get more insidious. MS and these companies tried being just blunt and forceful with their tactics and it didn't turn out good. Now these companies, including Sony, are going to go with the persuasive, gradual pied piper tactic and lead gamers where they want with a big 'ol smile on their faces the whole time.
Everything has a start, this is the start of this generation and i'm wondering what its going to end up looking like. Last gen started out like normal, then when ended up with $60 games, sections of those games taken out and sold back to us as day one DLC, Horse Armor, paying extra for content already on the disc that we bought and all the while gamers defending all of these actions against our best interests. It's like an extreme ongoing case of Stockholm Syndrome.
VisceralBowl
Member
He is talking about the future. More games than the PS4 can use streaming technology in the future.
He is talking about the future. More games than the PS4 can use streaming technology in the future.
This is about the future. You don't know about the future, and neither does he.
He means that it uses no data past the initial download. It is on your drive and you can access it at anytime. No downtime or server issues can stop you. Licensing issues are another thing.
You can use an external drive to backup 90% of everything on consoles.
You don't know about the future. I don't think it will either, but who knows.
The entire video was talking about how in the near future it this kind of streaming could become commonplace.
soul creator
Member
Even the medium that is most dedicated to streaming nowadays (music) still has some degree of a physical marketplace, so I don't see that going away completely. Though I can obviously see it diminishing a whole lot, since the actual experience itself doesn't depend on ownership and archival. As of now, gaming experiences are still mostly dependent on running locally on a machine, but that could obviously improve.
Overall, customers seem to have shown that if it's cheap enough, "ownership and archival" isn't really that important. At least, it's not so important that it outweighs the actual experience of the media itself.
Listening to music, watching movies, reading books, and playing games are what people actually care about. Ownership just happened to be a side effect of that in the past, because that was the only way for those things to happen. But I can see streaming and/or downloading becoming dominant on all other types of media, as long as the experience is good enough, and cheap enough. But even still, I could see physical media maintaining for certain markets, because it may still exist. It just won't be the dominant thing.
Yes but we are talking about now. The only current example of game streaming is Now. Why criticize what you think might happen when there are legitimate things to criticize now? His complaints seem not focused on what is but what might happen in his dystopian gaming future. Criticize the lag or tech specs but don't spin yarns of speculation when I can easily do the same.
Edit: And I agree somewhat with him on the point of games being exclusive to this in the future. This is playstation going forward. This is sony's end game. There will still probably be a ps5 due to internet infrastructure problems and then when now becomes feasible we won't own any of our games. But we haven't for a while anyway. Digital games that is.
Well, music can be at least.
What's shown here is just an excerpt of what they do, and I can tell you it's an awesome experience to live in concert!
I've enjoyed what I've tried, but I'm worried because only certain games work well with it. Basically, I would never play an FPS, very challenging game like Dark Souls, or anything else that requires fast reaction via streaming.
But for things like single player action adventure games and RPGs it's awesome.
But for things like single player action adventure games and RPGs it's awesome.
I get what you're saying but I meant more like user access, not consumer rights. My post was more about how some people may be afraid a streaming service is going to continually nickel and dime them forever instead of being able to just have unlimited access to even a digital copy. That won't happen, they'll take your full $60 and let you access it.
As far as physical copies, again, we can look at the music and DVD market for precedent. I think what will happen is they start to become more like expensive special editions rather than stock bulk releases. They'll gladly mark up some fancy looking tin to get you to spend extra on physical goods. Either way, it's likely going to end up a negative in some way shape or form, but I don't see them eliminating full priced physical releases, IMO.
gutter_trash
Banned
I was hoping that this would be the solution backward compatiblity but the ''renting'' price skeem turns me off
my ex-gf took back the PS3 (my original PS3 died)
Instead of plunking money on ''renting'' PS3 games that I used to own to play on PS4... might as well just rebuy a PS3 and just re-dowload my PSN games through my history and play my disk PS3 games
my ex-gf took back the PS3 (my original PS3 died)
Instead of plunking money on ''renting'' PS3 games that I used to own to play on PS4... might as well just rebuy a PS3 and just re-dowload my PSN games through my history and play my disk PS3 games