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So uh, Mario World must've blown's everybody's mind huh?

EDIT: A perfect example of the kind of game I'm talking about re: Genesis vs SNES is castlevania. Even though the Actionvania style of games were on the NES and PCE as well, you ask many gamers what their favorite castlevania is and they'll say Castlevania IV. I hate Castlevania IV, it feels so slow and easy and clunky to me. My favorite is dracula X. All the reasons I like dracula X - the extreme difficulty, the no 8-way whip, the weird jumping mechanics - are frequently cited as reasons people prefer Castlevania IV instead.

I've never heard anyone call Castlevania IV their favorite Castlevania (although it did look & sound pretty good at the time). Symphony of the Night, 3, and Dracula X are the typical responses I've heard for "What's the best Castlevania?" although you'll occasionally hear someone mention one of the portable games.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I've never heard anyone call Castlevania IV their favorite Castlevania (although it did look & sound pretty good at the time). Symphony of the Night, 3, and Dracula X are the typical responses I've heard for "What's the best Castlevania?" although you'll occasionally hear someone mention one of the portable games.

I hear it frequently on retro gaming sites.
EDIT: However, SotN would still fit the criteria I'm describing. That sort of constant progression style of game.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
It's a great game in its own right and certain bits like the mode seven moments, use of color, yoshi, did blow minds but it had nothing on the earth shattering SMB 3 caused.
 

batbeg

Member
I've never heard anyone call Castlevania IV their favorite Castlevania (although it did look & sound pretty good at the time). Symphony of the Night, 3, and Dracula X are the typical responses I've heard for "What's the best Castlevania?" although you'll occasionally hear someone mention one of the portable games.

I saw it cited enough to buy it on Virtual Console.
I regretted it.
 

big_z

Member
SMW did indeed blow my mind. I thought it was crazy that the world map was one huge thing all connected instead of the sectioned-off portions in 3. Plus, the wealth of secrets was incredible to me.

This was probably the biggest improvement. Mario3 was a to b, world had so much to discover it really let your imagination run wild.
The smw design is something nintendo has failed to replicate with every 2D Mario since.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
This was probably the biggest improvement. Mario3 was a to b, world had so much to discover it really let your imagination run wild.
The smw design is something nintendo has failed to replicate with every 2D Mario since.

I think someone hit the nail on the head earlier when they said the lack of world themes made SMW feel very samey throughout. You got a few different tile sets, but not nearly the constant variety you saw in SMB3, and they were repeated throughout SMW which made the change feel less constant. In that regard, I much prefer the "worlds" maps of Mario 3 to the single world map of SMW.

However, one area where SMW really improved upon SMB3 is the level length. The levels in SMB3 are tiny. They're all bite sized. They might have impressive verticality or a lot to do in the tiny spaces they occupy, but from start to finish they rarely covered much distance. And when they did cover distance, they used warp pipes to give the illusion that the levels were bigger.

The stages in SMW by contrast are very large. All other Super Mario games have levels of comparable sizes, so SMW feels more in line with the rest of the series than SMB3. When I go back to SMB3, the small size of the levels always sticks out.

This makes SMB3 better for portable gaming, however. I much prefer SMB3 on my GBA to most other mario games, because I feel the levels are perfect for that pick-up-and-go playstyle.
 
It honestly didn't blow my mind apart from the Koopa Clown Car zooming into the screen during the final boss battle, but it was a great deal of fun, the way most Mario games are. But even now I prefer Mario 3's more difficulty oriented design than Mario World's expansive stages and buckets of secrets.

Honestly, the Super NES didn't really throw me for a loop in general. Technically you had licensed game that was both A) Good and B) resembled the source material (like Tiny Toons) and occasionally a deve would push the hardware's limits (Secret of Mana and Yoshi's Island) but much like the PS2>PS3 leap, it was mostly just a pretty version of the old stuff, which was nice but not really mind blowing

The exception to all this being fighting games
 
It's probably my favorite Mario, but it didn't really blow my mind at the time. A Link to the Past though, that blew my mind when I first saw it.

Mario 64 certainly blew my mind when I first saw it.
 
It's probably my favorite Mario, but it didn't really blow my mind at the time. A Link to the Past though, that blew my mind when I first saw it.

Same. I loved Mario World and everything. But, I'll never forget my friend getting Link to the Past for his birthday and sitting there in his bedroom starting it up for the first time. The opening in the rain was the most amazing shit I'd ever seen.
 
Was around for every Mario launch other than the original (I was 2). Mario world didn't so much blow minds as much as it was one of those games that was pure fun. It was so addicting you could just not put it down. Everything about it from the music, sound effects, scrolling graphics, level design, control, was just utter perfection and it all came together to create a perfectly polished, irresistible package.

The real mind blower, the game that had everyone with their jaws on the floor despite not being as polished, was Mario 64. I was 12 at the time, but even then I knew that this game was going to change the gaming industry forever. We all knew we were experiencing something special, and holiday season '96 was one of my favorite time periods ever due to this. It was just revolutionary to the entire medium, and no one had ever seen anything like it before. I still get chills even thinking about that game.
 
I hear it frequently on retro gaming sites.
EDIT: However, SotN would still fit the criteria I'm describing. That sort of constant progression style of game.

Sure, but I don't think you're giving that style of game its proper due. Games like Mario World, Super Metroid, and Link to the Past aren't some half-rate RPG where the first boss is the hardest bit of the game unless you grind and the whole game is basically the same thing with all the numbers just getting bigger - these are games with a definite difficulty curve, there's plenty of variety from stage to stage, and with Super Metroid & Link to the Past, it's quite possible to get stuck and unable to progress if you're not paying attention. With SMW, there are lots of secrets that are easy to miss, including an entire world. And with SotN, you could easily miss the whole second half of the game if you're not thorough.

Yes, these games want the player to succeed but is that a bad thing? The best games of this ilk has level design that's set up to steadily teach the player how to play better so that by the time they reach the harder challenges, they're ready for them. Most people would feel that's a better method than repetition.

Don't get me wrong; I like a good arcade-style score attack game as much as anyone (I'm particularly partial to Pac-Man:CE & Monaco and have spent countless hours trying to improve scores) and agree that Sega did some great work back in their prime but I think the idea that that style of game is inherently superior to all others would be just as ridiculous as saying racing games are inherently superior to point & click adventure games. Different things for different people.
 
Yoshi's Island wasn't well received? Wow, I thought it was the best game I had ever played at the time
I remember a lot of people being let down with that game. I rented it and also thought, that's it? this is the sequel to mario world? Its critical acclaim has grown with time though, and it's now a revered Mario game that stands among the strongest in the series.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I remember a lot of people being let down with that game. I rented it and also thought, that's it? this is the sequel to mario world? Its critical acclaim has grown with time though, and it's now a revered Mario game that stands among the strongest in the series.

I remembered Yoshi's Island being critically well received but that it was sort of a dud in sales. I think that is at least partially because of how late in life it came - the N64 was really right around the corner.

I don't really care about sales, though, as it's easily among my top 5 SNES games and probably my second favorite Mario game behind Mario Galaxy 2. If anyone missed out, that's their loss.
 

Mozz-eyes

Banned
A large part of the reason why Sega is being rectonned from gaming history has to do with the sort of games that populated the Genesis library, and the kind of games that populated the SNES library. Sega's roots as an arcade company show - they generally made arcade games for the home, and other companies kind of followed their lead. This mean the games were often more difficult, and were usually focused on shorter experiences that took a long time to master. A typical, quality genesis title would be one that you could complete, start to finish, in about an hour if you were good enough, where getting good enough meant you had to spend weeks honing your skill. They excelled at making the kind of games where, every time you play, you got a little better and little farther.

Nintendo, by contrast, from the moment the NES dropped, changed their entire development philosophy. You can see it way back in games like Super Mario Bros and The Legend of Zelda. These are games you are meant to complete. They are long games if played correctly. As time went on, this philosophy really grew. The games people frequently cite all follow this formula - games with save features, where you are expected to make constant progress. The difficulty never really ramps, games generally aren't massively different in stage 1 vs stage 10 or whatever. Look at the games people list - Mario World, Final Fantasy, Super Metroid. Those are games where you are constantly progressing, you are never meant to basically start over.

As time went on, that model of game took over the industry. Outside of indie and smaller DD games, you never really have games with game overs anymore. The type of games SNES catered to, are the same style of games people play today. That means that today's youth, when they go back and play old games, go looking for games that play similar to modern games. That inevitably leads them to the SNES libary.

Time has dulled senses and made people forget the kind of games they liked on the Genesis. I can rattle off a hundred titles for the Genesis I could recommend, and more for the Master System and Saturn, but even then I suspect many would be turned off by what I recommend for the reasons above. I'll swear up and down that Ranger X was fucking incredible back in the day, one of the best games on the Genesis library, but someone will inevitably download the rom, play it for 10 minutes, get a game over, and call the game bullshit. Because that's not how it was meant to be played.

In reality, the games people remember and like from Sega, the ones that act and feel like Nintendo titles, are the extreme minority of their total output as a company. I think the average person is more in love with a type of game from Sega, than Sega themselves. Me? I adore Sega's outputs entirely - their stuff on the SMS and Saturn are my favorite things the company ever put out. I see the SMS and Saturn as being extremely similar systems, and I similarly see the Genesis and Dreamcast as being extremely similar. The SMS, early on, was mainly a bastion for Sega's Arcade output. Sega's best teams at the time worked in the arcades, and the early SMS output fell into two groups - good arcade ports (like Wonderboy), and generally bad original software (Like Alex Kidd in High Tech World). Near the end of the western life cycle, Sega (and their shadow contract developers like SIMS and Westone) gradually began creating games intended for the home market, similar to Nintendo's output, and that's where we get universally hailed SMS titles like Phantasy Star and Wonderboy III. That development philosophy kind of carried over to the Genesis and you got more titles in that vein, like Sonic the Hedgehog or Shining Force.

I see the Saturn the same way. Early on, mostly Arcade ports. Near the end, they started producing some amazing home-first games, like Panzer Dragoon Saga, and that style of game really bled over to the dreamcast where it flourished for two glorious years. Honestly, aside from graphics, Saturn titles from 1998 generally feel like dreamcast titles. It's weird.

Anywho, long story short - the sort of games Sega has excelled at are generally not in style anymore. For those who appreciate that style, they are probably the best ever at what they did. Thats why there are still some of us out there who will go to bat for Sega - because they produced games really unlike any other game maker for a vast majority of their history. I honestly feel like Capcom, Konami, Nintendo... those companies are all very similar. Their output feels the same, they could merge into one super company and none of their output would really suffer. Sega was vastly different from those companies. Sega's closest competitor, and their most similar rival, would actually be Namco. Sega's rivalry with Namco is mostly forgotten today, but they were much more fierce rivals in terms of output than they were with Nintendo.

I never thought about this but it makes so much sense. Excellent write-up.

I was always a Nintendo fan and my first console was the N64. Since then, I've been catching up on SNES and NES games via emulation, VC, and owning a Super Famicom but when I compare the SNES library to the Genesis one I can't see the appeal of Sega. I was never sure why.

But you've clarified that: I prefer investable games. Arcade games stress me out as they're often fast paced and incredibly hard. Not to say I don't enjoy fast paced games, but I prefer those that aren't 'insert coin now' kind of things.

Once again, thank you for spelling this out. Great post.
 
I didn't make any value call on this style of game at all. You're reading an argument where there is none. I like these kinds of games too. I'm merely commenting that the other style of games have fallen out of style.

Sorry, the comments: "Sega is being rectonned from gaming history" and "The difficulty never really ramps, games generally aren't massively different in stage 1 vs stage 10 or whatever." made me think you were doing a value call.

I agree that SMB3's stronger world identities made the game feel like there was more variety from start to finish than SMBW's setup. But then you have something like LttP where each dungeon has its own distinct feel (plus the dark world of the later game vs. the light world of the early game) and the whole thing has a lot more variety than the original Zelda.
 

dankir

Member
I was in the 4th grade when it came out. Parents bought me an SNES eith super mario world pack in.I couldn't wait to get home from school to play it. Goddamn the SNES was so good.
 

Daingurse

Member
I don't think I've played it, Genesis household during that time.

Edit: Seeing the Dreamcast games for the 1st time really is the only time I remember a leap between the games I was playing on a older console & the new games on a new system blowing my mind. I think that had more to do with the physics how stuff was moving around as you played the games it was just different.

No generational leap has really quite done for me what the Genesis---->Dreamcast jump did. Completely blown away.
 
I was a little young to remember it, but according to Game Over, a lot of people said it lacked innovation. People claimed it wasn't a big leap over SMB3 and Nintendo was phoning it in.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Sorry, the comments: "Sega is being rectonned from gaming history" and "The difficulty never really ramps, games generally aren't massively different in stage 1 vs stage 10 or whatever." made me think you were doing a value call.

Yeah, I didn't mean that the games were cake walks, rather that they had a more flat difficulty curve (and even then, only as an extreme generalization, there are obviously numerous exceptions).

EDIT: And I phrased the "stage 1 to stage 10" thing poorly. I meant games weren't typically radically more difficult in stage 1 than they might be in stage 10, unlike an arcade game where the difficulty curve can really ramp up. Not a slight on the level design itself.

I agree that SMB3's stronger world identities made the game feel like there was more variety from start to finish than SMBW's setup. But then you have something like LttP where each dungeon has its own distinct feel (plus the dark world of the later game vs. the light world of the early game) and the whole thing has a lot more variety than the original Zelda.

I think that's more to the point about good game design, and why I would argue I personally feel I like LTTP more than Mario 3. One of the things I value very much in game design - and I think the popular games over the years will agree with me that most share this desire - is constant evolution. Past around 1985, players began to demand more out of their games. Where as prior to that, you might see all a game has to offer within minutes, modern game design rewards players with unique graphics or experiences. Where, prior to about 1985, "levels" were more synonymous with "waves" of enemies, Nintendo really lead a charge for long, elaborate, constantly evolving games. As time went on, their games were among the best at throwing new levels and worlds at the players.

I'd actually say that ability to constantly evolve (either through unique graphical tricks or maybe new tile sets or stuff like that) is what separates Sega's arcade-style games from arcade style games of other companies. They generally had that touch to their games that most other companies did not.
 
I don't think I've played it, Genesis household during that time.



No generational leap has really quite done for me what the Genesis---->Dreamcast jump did. Completely blown away.
Genesis-> Dreamcast is a leap of two generations though. Of course it's going to blow your mind. It's like going from ps1 to ps3.
 

teiresias

Member
I was more impressed with Actraiser and Castlevania IV near launch actually. I had never HEARD anything like either of them at the time and preferred their at styles as well. I felt SMW, while fun, was woefully easy.
 

Renekton

Member
Sega of America and Sega of Japan were essentially two separate companies during that time period. The shit I could write about their relationship... it was so toxic. SoJ resented that they made the top software, but were being stomped in sales in their home country. SoA, by the tail end of the Genesis life, began pumping out some really good titles too, but for the most of the Genesis' life, the quality stuff came from half a world away. SoJ was dying to get a fresh start with the Saturn so they could finally have success at home, even if it came at the expense of their number 1 dollar market. They got their wish... and it killed the company.
SoA was not faultless I think. They wanted 32X to cling to the Genesis installed base.

They also did suggest SGI as alternative to the crazy double SH-2. But then again SGI also helped make the problematic N64 with its pitiful texture memory, high latency and microcode programming.
 
SoA was not faultless I think. They wanted 32X to cling to the Genesis installed base.

They also did suggest SGI as alternative to the crazy double SH-2. But then again SGI also helped make the problematic N64 with its pitiful texture memory, high latency and microcode programming.

Well, SGI went to Sega with an early version of the N64 hardware. Sega Of America though the hardware looked pretty good and contacted Sega of Japan. SOJ turned it down (probably because they already signed contracts with Hitachi) and SGI took their hardware to Nintendo.



This was probably the biggest improvement. Mario3 was a to b, world had so much to discover it really let your imagination run wild.
The smw design is something nintendo has failed to replicate with every 2D Mario since.


Well, this was an advantage of having battery back up in the cartridge. Super Mario Bros. 3 was designed around the notion that it could be completed in one sitting (as you could not save your game), while Super Mario World was designed around the idea that the player could backtrack through levels and discover new secrets that could unlock different areas (like the large coloured P-switches for example). The inclusion of a battery really changed the whole play style of the game to add more exploration than what was seen previously.

But, because Super Mario Bros. 3 wasn't designed with backtracking in mind, the levels did feel much tighter paced and more focused than the ones in Super Mario World.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
SoA was not faultless I think. They wanted 32X to cling to the Genesis installed base.

No, both sides of the ocean fucked things up pretty badly. I just generally believe the direction Sega of America went with the Genesis was definitely, financially, the winning formula. They were still bumbling at it. But I think they would have had a much greater chance for success had they tried to keep the Genesis market alive in any way possible, while they ironed out some problems with the Saturn. I can't stress enough, as a diehard Sega fan of the time, how quickly the quality titles dried up for the Genesis. It felt like, over night, all that was on the system was nothing but the western B-team efforts. Had SoJ kept pumping out Genesis games of the quality they had been, I think the Genesis probably would not have as dramatically lost momentum.

That Sony's advertising pretty much picked up exactly where Sega's left off kind of makes me think I'm correct. One of Sega of America's biggest mistakes was going with such a weird marketing direction with the Saturn, with those bald people with rings over their head (and Ice Cube in one of them). But that also coincides with a bunch of SoA people being fired around the same time on SoJ's call. Essentially, I feel like sticking with targeting the MTV crowd was the way to go. That's what Sony did initially before taking their brand more broad.
 

Jtrizzy

Member
The overworld was amazing but it wasn't nearly as mind blowing as 64, the original, or 3 (ranked for mind blowingness). I was day one on the original NES, age 8, first game console. Most games were mind blowing for the first few years.

Donkey Kong was the SNES mind blower graphically. 64 was the most mind blowing at the moment game of all time for me though.
 

inky

Member
It was very good. Probably would have legit blown my mind if I never played SMB3.

I didn't own a NES. I played it a lot at my cousins' but I didn't have one for me.

The SNES was the first console my mom bought me, and with it SMW. I wasn't that familiar with SMB3, so World absolutely blew my mind. It was the only thing I'd play for months, and even later on I kept finding stuff I didn't know about (like moon locations or secret passages). I must've visited every inch of that game.

GOAT game for sure.
 
I remember getting my hands on it for the first time at a K-Mart in-store demo station. My memory is probably rose tinted as fuck, but the way I remember it is as I walked through the automated doors, at the end of the center isle was the sole SNES demo station with the colorful SMW title screen running. And running up to it felt like I was drifting towards the pearly gates. Don't remember anything after that, just seeing it and running up to it is THE memory for me, and I know I didn't get an SNES until my birthday many months later.

When I did get it though I played the shit out of it. Wasn't a good enough (or interested) gamer to 100% complete it but I did finish off Bowser and make it to that star island with the bonus stages.
 
Yeah I agree with a lot of the sentiment here that after SM3, SMW was not mind blowing in and of itself. I think the biggest jump never came from the world but some of the mechanics, like flying with far more vertical scroll or just the sheer gameplay variety. Overall the polish was absolutely charming, too, but not mind blowing. SMW was pretty incredible because it was just such a well done game so loaded with charming detail and secrets, and that was amazing for young kids to discover and talk/start rumours about.

Super Mario 3D was the Mario that I think was most mind blowing. The first time you really swim or fly in Super Mario 3D... which was for so many people probably a defining 'exploring in 3D' moment for their entire gaming hobby, was pretty mind blowing. I mean, I had played 3D games since the Terminator on DOS which was like first-person GTA long before GTA3, and actually the game that Bethesda made before Elder Scrolls -- Terminator was one of the original 3D open world games. I had played that, I had played Elder Scrolls Daggerfall. I had played 3D games in the arcade.

But that first time I went swimming in Super Mario 64 or surfed a turtle shell down a hill? Wow... that just forever changed action games. Pilotwings and Waverace 64 played a role in that too but Super Mario 64 was a pretty defining game, even to an arcade and DOS game player.
 

CamHostage

Member
(I was a lot more impressed by Actraiser and F-Zero.)

Yeah, the SNES had so many weapons in its arsenal that Super Mario World somehow ended up looking like a regular old club among the dangerously sharp new items, just this powerful but comfortable thing that you reached past in choosing your wicked attack tool even though eventually your brains would be inevitably bashed in by that simple but awesomely effective club.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
It's a forgivable sin. The Saturn just sort of showed up on shelves one day with a NiGHTS kiosk alongside it and then slowly faded away into irrelevance until it was killed.

ogdwuv.gif
 
It was incredible as a kid. I got one near launch due to my family winning some money along with Sim city and those two games were all I played until link to the past came out.

I remember hooking it up and the feeling of being absolutely stunned and mystified at the possibilities of a game. Like you have no idea what the limitations are or what could be next.

The same feeling I got with games like secret of mama, chrono trigger, Mario 64, GoldenEye, final fantasy 7, halo, and fallout.

I think that kind of feeling of endless possibility is what we are chasing in games so often. That's why so many people are excited for no mans sky.
 
Calling it the answer to the PCE CD is a bit much. It was the PC Engine CD's main competition, but it was more a response to NEC and Sega both collectively realizing CDs were the next-big-thing. Both NEC and Sega announced their CD Rom systems the same year, 1988. Virtually everybody at the time was expected to have a CD Rom system, it was a weird time. I think many forget that, at the time, Nintendo caught considerable flack for not having a publicly announced CD Rom system in the works. It was just one of those things people expected.

What are you talking about?? NEC released the PC Engine CD-ROM2 in 1988, three (3) years before Sega released the Mega CD in Japan.

By the way SMW has the best mechanics on any 2D Mario game:

- Tight physics.
- Spin jump to destroy spin blocks and annihilate Koopas.
- Dinosaur power-up (Yoshi), with skills such as eating enemies, convert berries into power-ups, fire breathing, stomping and flying.
- P switch grabbing.
- Vertical object throwing.
- Fence grabbing with fence switching and enemy punching.
- Object grabbing while climbing.
- Double jumping/Yoshi throwing.
- Fast swimming while grabbing objects.
- Multiple exits (2 goals or 1 goal + 1 key exit)
- Wall running.
- Hit enemies with the cape and shoot fireballs without losing momentum (hold Y + press X).
- Easy trampoline and music block bouncing.

All above plus complex cape mechanics that include:
- Slow descent.
- Skill based infinite flying.
- High speed diving.
- Mid-air direction switching.
- Super high spin jumping.
- Mid-air flying to spinning.

And don't forget that it also introduced the following features:
- Layered stereo-sound soundtrack that gets enhanced when you get Yoshi.
- Haunted houses.
- Non linear progressing.
- Switch palaces.
- Saving!!
 
Most of which you're never forced to master, which is why I don't think it's nearly as good as the NES games.

You did have to master some of the game mechanics to unlock secret areas, and the special world did put your skills to the test. But yeah, the initial game didn't really require you to master all of Mario's skill sets like the earlier NES games did.
 

pswii60

Member
At the time it was somewhat overshadowed by Sonic, and while well-received, was seen as more of the same.

(I was a lot more impressed by Actraiser and F-Zero.)
This.

Sonic was so fast and beautiful at the time, nobody had ever seen anything quite like it. It was really extraordinary. SMW then seemed quite tame in comparison, but of course in reality they were both very different games. I love them both for different reasons.
 
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