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Final Fantasy XV - Battle System Analysis [TGS14 Update | GIF Heavy]

Z

ZenTzen

Member
Grivenger said:
I'm not sure if I understood it well, but the "gambits" are what leads to the directional input + attack button actions.

But that's only for Noctis, yes. The "gambits" for other characters will be controlled by the AI.
Click to expand...

from what i'm underdstanding, i dont think gambits will be the same for Noctis attacks, but it'll be more of a building a balanced deck of weapons or unbalanced, whatever people enjoy, like a full deck of great swords, or rapiers, lances, etc, while the directional inputs + attack will be for specific stuff you may want to use during battle, the same for the special button, and this is just for the weapon stuff with noctis, theres still stuff left to know how it will work, like magic and summons

and yes the gambits are pretty much left for the AI, the player will customize every character to perform specific actions and then leave it to the AI during battles, while those noctis + party member moves will depend on the player, etc

Death Penalty said:
Can you even be sure of this? It wasn't stated one way or the other, and it seems just as likely that Noctis is auto-targeting and warping. I don't care if the game is difficult or not, just holding down X for your super move is pretty lame. Slide dash doesn't seem like a good comparison at all. That was just a closing move that led into combos you had control over, a single button-press distance closer. The comparison to the ghost drive form where you auto teleport and mash X looks a lot more apt, to me.
Click to expand...

well we never see any kind of lock-on icon besides the long warp one, but we can assume that the player is manually targeting enemies, other than that i do agree with you that holding down a button for auto-combo stuff is really unsatisfying and hope they put the option to press for each individual attack
 
D

DirtyCase

Member
Good job on the great analysis!
I was a little worried about the combat systems in place for this game, but after reading what you wrote most of my worries are gone.
 
Lady Bird

Lady Bird

Matsuno's Goebbels
ZenTzen said:
from what i'm underdstanding, i dont think gambits will be the same for Noctis attacks, but it'll be more of a building a balanced deck of weapons or unbalanced, whatever people enjoy, like a full deck of great swords, or rapiers, lances, etc, while the directional inputs + attack will be for specific stuff you may want to use during battle, the same for the special button, and this is just for the weapon stuff with noctis, theres still stuff left to know how it will work, like magic and summons

and yes the gambits are pretty much left for the AI, the player will customize every character to perform specific actions and then leave it to the AI during battles, while those noctis + party member moves will depend on the player, etc
Click to expand...
The "gambits", as presented in the file patent, describe a system where offensive actions are determined (and customised) based on your position on the battlefield. In other words, "gambits" are changed whenever you move Noctis with the directional input. For this reason, when the game's director talked about how actions change with the attack button + directional input, he was much probably talking about how the "gambits" work in FFXV.

People have to keep in mind that FFXV is NOT using a gambit's system, in the strict sense of how they worked in FFXII. It is using a system that is SIMILAR to the gambit's system, by the words of Tabata, and which is actually called by another name in the file patent: "Attack Methods".

In the file patent, it shows that customising attack methods is similar to customising gambits in FFXII: you select actions, the conditions to trigger those actions, and how they are priotized. However, nothing indicates that this is even an AI system, like it was in FFXII. Apparently, the "gambits" (attack methods) for Noctis determine what happens when you press the attack button, and the "gambits" for the remaining party are automatically triggered by the AI.
 
Raonak

Raonak

Banned
Oh cool, re-hyped about the combat now that I know it's got a planning based element.

Are they really calling it Phantom Swords!? The spiraling blades wan't enough of a reference to DMC(vergil), they're calling it the exact same thing DMC calls it too?
 
Myths

Myths

Member
There's a reason it's called "AXB" - a crossing of paths on the battlefield checks as a condition for determining Noctis' commands (as well as other layer-related input).
 
D

Death Penalty

Member
ZenTzen said:
well we never see any kind of lock-on icon besides the long warp one, but we can assume that the player is manually targeting enemies, other than that i do agree with you that holding down a button for auto-combo stuff is really unsatisfying and hope they put the option to press for each individual attack
Click to expand...

If it makes you feel better, Tabata's words make it seem like individual presses are a viable way to do the commands as well, so there is that. My issue isn't with the main battle system here- I'm of the opinion that holding down the button and mashing the button are essentially the same thing- but the fact that Noctis' warps to close seem automatic during his limit break phantom sword whatever thing rubs me the wrong way. It's not just taking stringing combos out of your hands, but movement as well. And if games like Kingdom Hearts are anything to go by, he could very well be auto-locking on to the closest or most appropriate target. Kingdom Hearts does that for you independently of your chosen hard-lock. So, if warping and attacking are being done for you in that form just with the press of one button it seems to me that there's too little interaction for something that's probably meant to make you feel like a badass. I can't help but be wary.

Of course it's entirely possible that I'm analyzing the situation incorrectly. There's precious little information, it's true, and a lot will only be clear with a hands-on. But I think Exentryk's observations are pretty sensible here.
 
D

Dark_castle

Junior Member
Take the following with a grain of salt, but based-Exentryk found a discussion on 2ch and a certain someone suspected to be working for SE posted these.

- Hold Combo~ The AI reads the situation and performs the combo, but you can freely choose which weapon comes at the beginning and the end of the combo. The final hit becomes a strong attack.
When there are no enemies and (or?) you hold the attack button the weapon you used last will be set as the first. Depending on the beginning (first) weapon the evasion action and things like that change.
The attacking motion is slow to make it easier on the player to check the weapon he is using and decide whether he wants to use that one or not in the end.
Depending on which weapon you use for the final hit you can do stuff like launching enemies in the air or tie in other actions (like using items or magic).
But, if you get greedy and attack too much you will die quickly. You will die easily to AoE attacks and the like.
In other words, 15 has been changed from high speed action to that which favors strategy; however, since it emphasis is placed on each attack you make, the combat still feels refreshing and it is very easy to do with just one button.
Also, currently a weapon change icon has been added so you can know which weapon will be used. Whether it adds to the speed is being investigated (?).

- Regular attacks, evasion ~ This can be performed by pressing once. You can tap it as well, but your weapon will not change. You can dodge to whichever place you want.

- Support actions ~ Because you can only control the main character, it's hard to get an actual feel for your party's leveling up, but support actions have been added to have the player get a feel for this.
As their level grows, the types of support attacks increase and you can set this freely making for a variety of actions.
For example, you get a feel like you're controlling/moving both Noctis and Prompto at the same time (?) and you can use Prompto's attack to shoot enemies in the air.
Also, there is another link system in which your party covers you when you make a mistake.
Click to expand...
Translation by Hakurou.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/932981-final-fantasy-xv/70246126
 
M

Mr. RHC

Member
Nice OT.

Magic

Magic also gets cast depending on the "gambits" set. For example, a "gambit" could be set like, "when 10m or more away from enemy - Cast Fire".
Click to expand...

Meh, this is kinda disappointing, but gambits will make it feel special anyway.
 
C

Ceravic

Member
Awesome thread. Hype is currently building more and more every day. Between this and Xenoblade Chronicles X this could be the a good revival of big budget JRPG's, provided of course both are good.
 
Exentryk

Exentryk

Member
Yeah, Dark Castle, dunno if that is true, but I liked the idea that tapping the button doesn't change your weapon, which you can then use to abuse a DPS weapon :D

Death Penalty said:
Can you even be sure of this? It wasn't stated one way or the other, and it seems just as likely that Noctis is auto-targeting and warping. I don't care if the game is difficult or not, just holding down X for your super move is pretty lame. Slide dash doesn't seem like a good comparison at all. That was just a closing move that led into combos you had control over, a single button-press distance closer. The comparison to the ghost drive form where you auto teleport and mash X looks a lot more apt, to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Ghost Drive is also similar. Couldn't find a good vid to link for Time Splicer, so here is Ghost Drive in action, which I think will be similar to how Phantom Sword attacking works. If you don't manually lock on to enemies, the targets will get selected depending on your gambits I think - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QPVPng7RQU

Grivenger said:
The "gambits", as presented in the file patent, describe a system where offensive actions are determined (and customised) based on your position on the battlefield. In other words, "gambits" are changed whenever you move Noctis with the directional input. For this reason, when the game's director talked about how actions change with the attack button + directional input, he was much probably talking about how the "gambits" work in FFXV.
Click to expand...

It could be that he was talking about gambits. But when you have the attack button held down and are attacking an enemy at close range, you won't be able to move much right? So pressing left + attack, and then right + attack won't really change the target as it won't be enough to move you far enough away. For this reason, I feel that the directional buttons (Is this D-pad or Analog? Are they different?) might have something to do with either changing the main weapon, or there are just variations to the standard combo pre-set for the attack + direction.
 
P

Philippo

Member
Exentryk said:
Yeah, Dark Castle, dunno if that is true, but I liked the idea that tapping the button doesn't change your weapon, which you can then use to abuse a DPS weapon :D
Click to expand...

So if it's reliable it should be something like
Tap/Mash button -> Combo with main/current weapon
Hold -> Combo with the deck
Right? If so i kinda called something like this during TGS.

And he says there is a Weapon Deck Icon, i guess it's the one on bottom left we saw at E3.
I hope they just add back an option for manual switch (based on your deck), and we're golden.
 
D

Dark_castle

Junior Member
Exentryk said:
Yeah, Dark Castle, dunno if that is true, but I liked the idea that tapping the button doesn't change your weapon, which you can then use to abuse a DPS weapon :D
Click to expand...

Yeah. That means one button still requires some thought process and active planning in battles in which weapon you want to stick to, if you don't wish to hold onto the button for default combo attacks.

For instance, I can hold X until a buster sword appears, and continually tapping it to string a series of buster sword combo, but I could manually decide I want to cancel the buster sword combo with hold-gambit combo, followed by tapping with dagger combo after it shows up in weapon selection screen. This might very well be that pressing a plurality button manual mode from the combat patent earlier.

Another point of interest is the ability to use other characters' unique skills, like Prompto's TPS mode by linking to them in battles.
 
Q

Qvoth

Member
In other words, 15 has been changed from high speed action to that which favors strategy
Click to expand...

yeah that's what i'm feeling ever since tgs, and tbh i'm quite glad with this change
 
Lady Bird

Lady Bird

Matsuno's Goebbels
Exentryk said:
It could be that he was talking about gambits. But when you have the attack button held down and are attacking an enemy at close range, you won't be able to move much right?
Click to expand...
That's a good question, but regardless, I think it would be too confusing if there were to exist two distinct, unrelated systems involving directional input + attack button controlling. I don't think they would ever design the combat system that way.
 
Z

ZenTzen

Member
Dark_castle said:
Take the following with a grain of salt, but based-Exentryk found a discussion on 2ch and a certain someone suspected to be working for SE posted these.

- Hold Combo~ The AI reads the situation and performs the combo, but you can freely choose which weapon comes at the beginning and the end of the combo. The final hit becomes a strong attack.
When there are no enemies and (or?) you hold the attack button the weapon you used last will be set as the first. Depending on the beginning (first) weapon the evasion action and things like that change.
The attacking motion is slow to make it easier on the player to check the weapon he is using and decide whether he wants to use that one or not in the end.
Depending on which weapon you use for the final hit you can do stuff like launching enemies in the air or tie in other actions (like using items or magic).
But, if you get greedy and attack too much you will die quickly. You will die easily to AoE attacks and the like.
In other words, 15 has been changed from high speed action to that which favors strategy; however, since it emphasis is placed on each attack you make, the combat still feels refreshing and it is very easy to do with just one button.
Also, currently a weapon change icon has been added so you can know which weapon will be used. Whether it adds to the speed is being investigated (?).

- Regular attacks, evasion ~ This can be performed by pressing once. You can tap it as well, but your weapon will not change. You can dodge to whichever place you want.

- Support actions ~ Because you can only control the main character, it's hard to get an actual feel for your party's leveling up, but support actions have been added to have the player get a feel for this.
As their level grows, the types of support attacks increase and you can set this freely making for a variety of actions.
For example, you get a feel like you're controlling/moving both Noctis and Prompto at the same time (?) and you can use Prompto's attack to shoot enemies in the air.
Also, there is another link system in which your party covers you when you make a mistake.
Click to expand...
Translation by Hakurou.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/932981-final-fantasy-xv/70246126
Click to expand...

if that is confirmed true, that would indeed be pretty awesome and a good alternative to vhanging party leader
 
Exentryk

Exentryk

Member
Grivenger said:
That's a good question, but regardless, I think it would be too confusing if there were to exist two distinct, unrelated systems involving directional input + attack button controlling. I don't think they would ever design the combat system that way.
Click to expand...

Let's think about what can change your actions in a combo:

- Switching Weapons
This one is obvious, as in you switch your main weapon, and your combo/actions change. If this switch happens with the d-pad, then it fits the point Tabata was making.

- Change of Range
Here, I mean if you hold the opposite direction to the enemy + attack, your character will move slightly away from the enemy, but still be within 3m of it. This wouldn't change the gambit setting and you'd still only be triggering the 3m close attack gambit. But that little movement away from the enemy might mean a dagger or a short sword isn't adequate, and a spear gets used to close the distance, thus resulting in a change of actions.
This range option can also trigger directional gambits (attack enemy from front or back or side) depending on the movement of Noctis and the enemy.

- Change of target
Now, if you manage to move enough while holding attack (also accounting for enemy movements), your target could change based on gambits and thus change your actions.

- Different actions even with the same weapons
With this last one, we've seen various different weapon animations even with the same weapon. Are they just changing based on range, or is holding direction + attack actually making a difference?


Anyway, we'll likely have to wait for the demo to confirm these detailed nuances.
 
D

Death Penalty

Member
It should be noted I think that there was a dedicated magic button according to Verendus in one version of the tech demo, so magic may not necessarily be dictated by gambits despite the patent's example. This would seem to fit with the possible information provided that says you can weave item use and magic into combos.
 
Exentryk

Exentryk

Member
Death Penalty said:
It should be noted I think that there was a dedicated magic button according to Verendus in one version of the tech demo, so magic may not necessarily be dictated by gambits despite the patent's example. This would seem to fit with the possible information provided that says you can weave item use and magic into combos.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it'd be awesome if there was a dedicated button for Magic. But given the system of gambits, it's redundant. Will leave it for now until it is confirmed.
 
D

Death Penalty

Member
Exentryk said:
Yeah, it'd be awesome if there was a dedicated button for Magic. But given the system of gambits, it's redundant. Will leave it for now until it is confirmed.
Click to expand...

Sure, I totally get why you'd keep it up and it's probably for the best for now. Still I do have high hopes that magic has a dedicated button, just because Tabata mentioned that MP was in. If the logical leap is true (MP is expended for magic) then it would seem like a weird system that had you automatically use magic based on positioning when you might not want to spend that MP. The mention in the information of weaving magic and items in with normal combos also makes me think it might be controlled by something beyond the attack button, and when magic is used in the tech demo a targeting reticule appears which would likewise be a strange thing to have happen automatically.

This is in all likelihood just me being overly hopeful of course. Probably won't be cleared up until next month at the earliest.
 
Z

ZenTzen

Member
Exentryk said:
Yeah, it'd be awesome if there was a dedicated button for Magic. But given the system of gambits, it's redundant. Will leave it for now until it is confirmed.
Click to expand...

magic being tied to gambits without any dedicated button or even a way to do it manually would be pretty horrible, having it for the party is okay since all their actions will use that system, but for the character we are in direct control of to not be able to use it as we see fit, is something i hope they arent doing
 
D

dragonzdogma

Member
Exentryk,hi
mr.tabata mentioned that the E3 2013 trailer was not a lie.I saw melee attacks like noctis kicks,neck breaker,face smashing,overhead knee and even gladiolus was doing suplex moves.

could you please try to explain what the button commands will be for such moves? If you aren't exactly sure,I would love to hear your prediction on how these moves will be mapped to the controller or with which weapons will they work with,ect.

thanks.
 
Exentryk

Exentryk

Member
dragonzdogma said:
Exentryk,hi
mr.tabata mentioned that the E3 2013 trailer was not a lie.I saw melee attacks like noctis kicks,neck breaker,face smashing,overhead knee and even gladiolus was doing suplex moves.

could you please try to explain what the button commands will be for such moves? If you aren't exactly sure,I would love to hear your prediction on how these moves will be mapped to the controller or with which weapons will they work with,ect.

thanks.
Click to expand...

Well, with the gambit system, these moves will most likely work by simply pressing (or holding) the attack button when close to the enemy. For example, a gambit could be set as "When Noctis makes contact with enemey - Use Kick".

The patent lists these moves as "throw A" and "throw B" I think.
 
D

dragonzdogma

Member
Exentryk said:
Well, with the gambit system, these moves will most likely work by simply pressing (or holding) the attack button when close to the enemy. For example, a gambit could be set as "When Noctis makes contact with enemey - Use Kick".

The patent lists these moves as "throw A" and "throw B" I think.
Click to expand...

I am sorry, I still don't get it,
so you can entirely replace Noctis sword for Kick attacks,
or you can set them up in the DECK, like say you press the attack button,
5 times, would it something like knife,short sword,buster sword, spear, kick?
 
Exentryk

Exentryk

Member
dragonzdogma said:
I am sorry, I still don't get it,
so you can entirely replace Noctis sword for Kick attacks,
or you can set them up in the DECK, like say you press the attack button,
5 times, would it something like knife,short sword,buster sword, spear, kick?
Click to expand...

Okay, imagine if Noctis is within 3m of an enemy and you hold the "Attack" button. This will let Noctis use sword attacks (given you have the close range sword attack gambit set).

Now, imagine that Noctis while using sword attacks, gets close enough to the enemy such that he is touching the enemy. In this case, Noctis's sword attacks will change to these kick/head smash type moves. You are still continuing to hold the "Attack" button, but you moved closer to the enemy to trigger these moves.
 
D

dragonzdogma

Member
Exentryk said:
Okay, imagine if Noctis is within 3m of an enemy and you hold the "Attack" button. This will let Noctis use sword attacks (given you have the close range sword attack gambit set).

Now, imagine that Noctis while using sword attacks, gets close enough to the enemy such that he is touching the enemy. In this case, Noctis's sword attacks will change to these kick/head smash type moves. You are still continuing to hold the "Attack" button, but you moved closer to the enemy to trigger these moves.
Click to expand...

Huh. I understand now,
I honestly can't wait to try the demo,I really hope that system is ready for us to experiment with.
 
Exentryk

Exentryk

Member
dragonzdogma said:
Could you please update this post now that we have a translation for the latest FFXV video?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=914029

I saw a bit about being able to perry.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the delay, but have been busy. Reworded and expanded on some stuff using the latest translation. I wonder why they didn't translate the segment where they showed the XV video.

Anyway, nice to see Tabata apologising for changing the battle system, even tho he didn't really need to do it.

mxEyVGS.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Exentryk

Exentryk

Member
Sorry for the bump, but I updated some of the info from the recent interviews like MP consumption for special actions (not magic), etc. Will keep this updated if it doesn't get locked lol.
 
S

SPAW

Member
Exentryk said:
Sorry for the bump, but I updated some of the info from the recent interviews like MP consumption for special actions (not magic), etc. Will keep this updated if it doesn't get locked lol.
Click to expand...

Best bump in a while.

Exentryk, do you know if there is any new gameplay news in the recent famitsu scans?
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
SPAW said:
Do we need a separate OT for the demo?
Click to expand...

I can guarantee you GAF is going to see a separate thread for every trailer, review, blah blah blah including marketing for the full game when the demo is actually out, which means like a dozen threads in a span of a week, so it'd be good to have one thread that's more appropriate/relevant for people who actually want to talk about the content/playing it/etc.

And Type-0 thread actually would benefit by being more topical with most of the FFXV stuff forcibly yanked from it. :p
 
P

Philippo

Member
Well then looks like i'm calling it (as long as someone helps me with graphics and stuff)! It'll make for a nice 1st OT.
 
S

SPAW

Member
Falk said:
I can guarantee you GAF is going to see a separate thread for every trailer, review, blah blah blah including marketing for the full game when the demo is actually out, which means like a dozen threads in a span of a week, so it'd be good to have one thread that's more appropriate/relevant for people who actually want to talk about the content/playing it/etc.

And Type-0 thread actually would benefit by being more topical with most of the FFXV stuff forcibly yanked from it. :p
Click to expand...

the worst thing is that I will be posting in all of them.

the type-0 thread will certainly be on point, short, but on point.
 
Exentryk

Exentryk

Member
SPAW said:
Best bump in a while.

Exentryk, do you know if there is any new gameplay news in the recent famitsu scans?
Click to expand...

I don't understand Japanese myself, so don't know. Sqexgal was working on translations, so lets see.

So far, we have these interviews translated.

Translated Interviews:
1 - http://gematsu.com/2014/12/final-fantasy-xv-detailed-famitsu
2 - http://sqex.info/ffxv-jump-festa-interview-dengeki-playstation/
3 - http://automaton.am/articles/news-b...utines-towns-excessive-boob-jiggling-part-ii/ (has 3 parts)
 
S

SPAW

Member
Exentryk said:
I don't understand Japanese myself, so don't know. Sqexgal was working on translations, so lets see.

So far, we have these interviews translated.

Translated Interviews:
1 - http://gematsu.com/2014/12/final-fantasy-xv-detailed-famitsu
2 - http://sqex.info/ffxv-jump-festa-interview-dengeki-playstation/
3 - http://automaton.am/articles/news-b...utines-towns-excessive-boob-jiggling-part-ii/ (has 3 parts)
Click to expand...

Nice, will be really interesting to hear why Magic is taking so much time.

Might also be that their use of deferred rendering is the cause of the horrendous AA-problems that we have seen in all trailers starting with the TGS-trailer.
 
P

Philippo

Member
SPAW said:
Nice, will be really interesting to hear why Magic is taking so much time.
Click to expand...

Nah, seems they only wanted the effects to look top notch like the rest and scrapped the visual effects, which is weird considering the small glimpse we got at TGS looked really good.
 
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