-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
A Story Not About Jeans
- Thread starter Malyse
- Start date
itchyass86
Member
I get it... it's an allegory of the average gamer. Finding a good pair of jeans is like tryina find a game that speaks to you. Or something.
Or did I get it wrong?
Or did I get it wrong?
Piston Hyundai
Member
the best allegories tell you that it's an allegory
Point is that white dude is both the default for characters and audience and there's a whole hell of a lot more than that interested in playing video games.
We gonna pretend people ain't thick enough to miss the point?
Professor Beef
Banned
This gonna be one of those threads where the first thirty or so posts miss the point, isn't it?
Spring-Loaded
Member
Okay, cool
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
itchyass86
Member
Oh... I missed the descriptions about race. I guess it was more of the Hemmingway / Ice Berg Theory type of literature.
I think race is a touchy subject and I don't really have the ammo to convey my nuanced feelings on it.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
That's pretty good.
I understand the metaphor, and I think it'll be very helpful to some, but the comparison of what amounts to a commodity with a creative work will probably raise some eyebrows for some. Being told "make your own" does have its place in something like entertainment, where it would deserve a very curt response to it for like...bread or pants. This said, when the "sub group" constitutes more than half the population, it's less of a retort. There's more variety out there in games than this lets on, but it's a necessary illustration.
The "what sells" answer is a result of a market being pandered to. I'm technically in the group being marketed to, and even I don't like it most of the time. I hope people think about this more than letting an initial tendency to pick it apart take hold. I sort of caught myself dissecting it. Not unfairly, but to unfruitful ends.
The "what sells" answer is a result of a market being pandered to. I'm technically in the group being marketed to, and even I don't like it most of the time. I hope people think about this more than letting an initial tendency to pick it apart take hold. I sort of caught myself dissecting it. Not unfairly, but to unfruitful ends.
Dreams-Visions
Member
payoff was interesting. makes sense enough.
Thanks for reminding me that I have a hard time finding jeans that fit properly with my build :-/ This story works in a way.
It's actually pretty trivial to make your own bread.
It's actually pretty trivial to make your own bread.
LaserBuddha
Member
I disagree. Pants are a commodity, but some specific, particularly well-made jeans are a good enough allegory for something that isnt a commodity.
I think its actually a bit softball because not being able to buy jeans in one store is not something you'd take as seriously as a whole entertainment ndustry mostly ignoring you.
Now, if you're a guy with a waist larger than 42", you'll hardly find anywhere with big enough jeans, and when you do find them they usually arent the desirable kind but are often unfashionable or cheap (think Wranglers at Wal-Mart). Similarly in games, the more inclusive games are rarely the big budget, polished ones that the most people want to play. Finding a game that "fits" you as a minority and is also one of the best experiences available is a very happy coincidence. Thats a pretty good allegory I think. But then somene will say you can lose weight....
Actually it's real simple. Three question simple.
Whats the racial breakdown of protagonists of games?
Whats the racial breakdown of game players?
Do they remotely match?
I guess the fourth question is "Should they match?"
Really?
You really want me to drown you in links to why representation matters?
Naw, you can easily Google that. you're not even trying
OniBarubary
Banned
As someone who thoroughly and fullheartedly supports equal representation and good minority/gender writing in games, this is a really bad allegory. =/
I'm sorry. There is not one person who did not get the arguments that are made that will now thanks to this.
I'm sorry. There is not one person who did not get the arguments that are made that will now thanks to this.
Yes, they should.
thelastcrusader
Banned
Jeans aren't the only pants in the world. Sometimes it helps to broaden your horizons. There are all kinds of games out there. I personally like the mystery approach to sexuality. I don't care if the hero in a game is a guy/girl/alien/tg or straight, bi, or gay or even asexual. I'd rather focus more on them saving the world. I grew up playing telnet text games and people would rp whatever they wanted it. If some games cater to certain audiences fine, me personally I'd rather not know.
So basically, since you don't care, why should I?
To be fair, even a theoretical mono-culture would benefit from entertainment with broad cultural influences. Skin color isn't as important as presenting characters with different cultural backgrounds and sensibilities, and just matching up with a population isn't the answer, if the goal is more human games. When we get into a sort of structured checklist of representation, it's a superficial way of assessing what's out there. In a really jaded sense, it would be incredibly easy for an industry to "address" this by just adjusting a few character sliders without actually solving what we're concerned about
Deadpool_X
Banned
Good to know that, apparently, although I am a really nice guy who goes out of my way to help people on a daily basis, I'm the bad guy, based on an extra chromosome and my skin color.
I don't disagree, but I'm just saying that we need to start somewhere.
Let's agree that every character being a white dude is fucking ridiculous.
WrenchNinja
Member
It's so easy yet some developers can't even be bothered to do that, the bare minimum. Look at the news for the new Pokemon game and it's removal of skin tones. This is coming a company who can totally afford doing something as simple as this for it's worldwide multicultural fanbase but have chosen not to. It's mindboggling.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
What a terrible analogy. Just like most analogies, I suppose.
Physically not being able to fit into a pair of jeans is very different than choosing not to play a video game because it turns you off or you feel like you aren't being represented.
Asking for a jeans manufacturer to offer more varied sizes is also very different to asking game creators to change the content of a game so that it appeals to you and makes you feel better represented.
Just a garbage analogy all around.
Not every character is. I understand that this may be the case for the vast majority of mainstream games, but there are plenty of examples where it's not true. Why not spend more effort giving those games attention and praise instead of screaming at mainstream game publishers to change their ways? They will not do so until they are convinced that it would be a financially wise decision.
Physically not being able to fit into a pair of jeans is very different than choosing not to play a video game because it turns you off or you feel like you aren't being represented.
Asking for a jeans manufacturer to offer more varied sizes is also very different to asking game creators to change the content of a game so that it appeals to you and makes you feel better represented.
Just a garbage analogy all around.
Not every character is. I understand that this may be the case for the vast majority of mainstream games, but there are plenty of examples where it's not true. Why not spend more effort giving those games attention and praise instead of screaming at mainstream game publishers to change their ways? They will not do so until they are convinced that it would be a financially wise decision.
Dragonborn
Member
I'd just go buy Jeans somewhere else. If that places doesn't want my business, why would I care?
Fair enough. And to take my own point to an extreme, even wonderfully human characterizations presented only through one subset of the population would be problematic in its own ways, if it's being presented to a wider audience.
Good to know that, apparently, although I am a really nice guy who goes out of my way to help people on a daily basis, I'm the bad guy, based on an extra chromosome and my skin color.
Yes, that's exactly what's happening here, well done sir.
Please take your straw man with you when you go looking for that point you missed.
I'm pretty sure I'm a guy of the average size for my region (which is to say a fatty) and I can't find pants or shirts that fit me in 90% of the stores here.
So it seems.
Good to know that, apparently, although I am a really nice guy who goes out of my way to help people on a daily basis, I'm the bad guy, based on an extra chromosome and my skin color.
Ugh.
It's critical of those that are a part of the normative majority who go out of their way to criticize, reject, ridicule and deny the fact that people who are not a part of that classification are adversely effected as the normative majority is disproportionately catered too.
Sentenza
Member
What if the answer is "Yes"?
Genuine question, since I have genuinely no idea of what's the actual breakdown.
That said, as far as I'm concerned more diversity in terms of gender and ethnicity would be absolutely welcome even in a hypothetical scenario with an audience made by a 100% of white people.
NoCryingUntilTheEnd
Banned
Incredibly terrible false equivalence. Jeans are marketed towards both men and women, whereas video games for a long while have (for the most part) just been marketed toward boys/men. Also: A lot of clothing ads for men and women actually do feature only very attractive people. Good luck buying a pair of boxer briefs with a skinnyfat dude on the front, nah.
A better comparison would be between video games and a hobby that has been seen in the past as a primarily female hobby.
A better comparison would be between video games and a hobby that has been seen in the past as a primarily female hobby.
Munkyspace
Member
hahahaha classic.
Its not. Mostly blacks and Hispanics as of last study.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
The best way to get your point across would be to just explain your point.
I find that analogies are almost never appropriate and almost always turns into a "that analogy sucks" discussion instead of talking about the actual point that was intended.
A link would be helpful in situations like this.
Good to know that, apparently, although I am a really nice guy who goes out of my way to help people on a daily basis, I'm the bad guy, based on an extra chromosome and my skin color.
You go on forums and say awful things to people? Because that's more or less the driving force of antagonism here.
Just don't immediately dismiss other view points than your own, and then you won't be a bad guy.
My gut says "Yes, of course," and I think to everyone that's the obvious answer. When groups are underrepresented, it's natural to seek to be more inclusive.
I guess my problem is that it's not actually a universal way to look at things. No one really cares that the difference racial make-up of different sports leagues don't accurately match the country's make up. There's been effort over the year to actually solve the issue of the over-representation of Blacks in the military (I think at at point it was 20%) and now it's around the actual percentage of the total population. But when you have a bunch of cultures living together, I feel like it's a bit naive to expect to appeal to them all in the same level, and sometimes, having those numbers may not even mean much. I don't know if I'm articulating it well, but I'm not saying representation is not important.
You missed the part where it's suppose to be ridiculous. Because it's completely fucking ridiculous.
NoCryingUntilTheEnd
Banned
Well the idea behind the article is that the author is trying to get men to walk in her shoes so that they may better relate to her. The only problem is that the story she presents is not one men can relate to. The story presented does not reverberate the way she wants it to and because of that, it isn't effective.
So it's supposed to be a bad, unrelatable story?