LowEndTorque
Member
Explain the appeal of joining David Koresh, and I'll explain the appeal of joining ISIS. Complete with GTA V.
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Someone please explain the appeal of joining ISIS to me
- Thread starter wanderingprostheyltite
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fierrotlepou
Member
Abdul, 19 years old.
Unsure of his future, he feels like a castaway in the western world. "Filthy muslim," is what he's called every day. This doesn't feel like home. He's looked down upon because he's a muslim.
Terrorists. That's the name they're given.
His childhood friends have joined a group of radical islamists that are sick of all this. They want to revolt and they're fucking angry. Angry at the world and angry at their parents for not teaching them the "real" islam. They're sick and tired of being unable to make a difference. Sick and tired of being born in a western country. They heard about this fight in Iraq. A group named ISIL is embracing these lost souls.
He decides to join them.
"I shouldn't be looked down upon because I have a different religion or an Arab sounding name," he says. "I'll join you my friends. You're the only ones that know what I'm feeling. I'll follow you, my brothers. I'll follow you."
Unsure of his future, he feels like a castaway in the western world. "Filthy muslim," is what he's called every day. This doesn't feel like home. He's looked down upon because he's a muslim.
Terrorists. That's the name they're given.
His childhood friends have joined a group of radical islamists that are sick of all this. They want to revolt and they're fucking angry. Angry at the world and angry at their parents for not teaching them the "real" islam. They're sick and tired of being unable to make a difference. Sick and tired of being born in a western country. They heard about this fight in Iraq. A group named ISIL is embracing these lost souls.
He decides to join them.
"I shouldn't be looked down upon because I have a different religion or an Arab sounding name," he says. "I'll join you my friends. You're the only ones that know what I'm feeling. I'll follow you, my brothers. I'll follow you."
I don't know, man.
There are two main explanations. The first is from immigrant or 2nd/3rd generational folks in which the motivation is largely straight up and down religious. A Libyan that decides to go fight for ISIS in Syria has the same religious motivations and justifications as a Libyan who lives in Britain, or whose parents brought the family over a decade or two ago.
The second, more perplexing, is what this thread is about. Which is otherwise native westerners that don't have the cultural/religious baggage that people coming from that part of the world do. Essentially, and a bit unpc, what this thread is asking is why would a bunch of 15-18 year old white girls suddenly decide they want to become breed sows for ISIS in Syria/Iraq.
I think the answer to that is that it is a reaction to cultural/political decay in the west that has removed or deconstructed many of the things that, in the past, would have been used to form an identity. Western society has become a relativistic nebbish like creature where the most idiotic propositions gain credibility as long as they are framed from the proper narrative perspective.
There are many different outlets for this type of rejection of the status quo. This is just one rather sad manifestation of it. ISIS (intentionally) projects strong manhood. Uncompromising or qualified statements and proclamations on right and wrong. On what is acceptable and unacceptable. These are attractive to both men and women (for different reasons) seeking an identity and something to latch onto that appears in total rejection and opposition the type of weakness they see in their fathers, brothers, and society at large.
The same reason biker gangs have no trouble finding women that want to be a part of that lifestyle. The men are "strong", and as long as you are subservient to that strength, you yourself then become stronger than everyone else (except those men obviously). In Raqqa and other ISIS strongholds, women are some of the worst police of sharia. The men of ISIS are number 1. The women number 2. Everyone else in society a distant 3 (or worse). They may be treated strictly by their men, but in return they receive almost unlimited power over the rest of society.
It's an interesting read on the dynamic emerging in ISIS occupied areas due to the fact that you almost have a colonial situation. The leadership cadre of ISIS are almost all non Syrian/Iraqi. They bring over their families and have created a situation where everyone but them are 2nd class citizens. ISIS has its own hospitals where all its fighters and their families get the best treatment, while taking supplies from non ISIS hospitals for their own use. The ordinary Syrian/Iraqi ends up living in squalor, while the best food, housing, medical care etc is reserved for foreign ISISers and their families. Many women come to enjoy that type of power, in return for being subservient to their men, they get to be ubermensch in comparison to the locals.
The second, more perplexing, is what this thread is about. Which is otherwise native westerners that don't have the cultural/religious baggage that people coming from that part of the world do. Essentially, and a bit unpc, what this thread is asking is why would a bunch of 15-18 year old white girls suddenly decide they want to become breed sows for ISIS in Syria/Iraq.
I think the answer to that is that it is a reaction to cultural/political decay in the west that has removed or deconstructed many of the things that, in the past, would have been used to form an identity. Western society has become a relativistic nebbish like creature where the most idiotic propositions gain credibility as long as they are framed from the proper narrative perspective.
There are many different outlets for this type of rejection of the status quo. This is just one rather sad manifestation of it. ISIS (intentionally) projects strong manhood. Uncompromising or qualified statements and proclamations on right and wrong. On what is acceptable and unacceptable. These are attractive to both men and women (for different reasons) seeking an identity and something to latch onto that appears in total rejection and opposition the type of weakness they see in their fathers, brothers, and society at large.
The same reason biker gangs have no trouble finding women that want to be a part of that lifestyle. The men are "strong", and as long as you are subservient to that strength, you yourself then become stronger than everyone else (except those men obviously). In Raqqa and other ISIS strongholds, women are some of the worst police of sharia. The men of ISIS are number 1. The women number 2. Everyone else in society a distant 3 (or worse). They may be treated strictly by their men, but in return they receive almost unlimited power over the rest of society.
It's an interesting read on the dynamic emerging in ISIS occupied areas due to the fact that you almost have a colonial situation. The leadership cadre of ISIS are almost all non Syrian/Iraqi. They bring over their families and have created a situation where everyone but them are 2nd class citizens. ISIS has its own hospitals where all its fighters and their families get the best treatment, while taking supplies from non ISIS hospitals for their own use. The ordinary Syrian/Iraqi ends up living in squalor, while the best food, housing, medical care etc is reserved for foreign ISISers and their families. Many women come to enjoy that type of power, in return for being subservient to their men, they get to be ubermensch in comparison to the locals.
LegendofLex
Member
Did I say that beheading civilians was okay?
Every comment I bolded was directed at the young girls and/or their unborn children, not at ISIS. I understand this thread is supposed to be aimed at gaining understanding, but it's hard to imagine how someone could not be discouraged by Western society's treatment of non-Western groups based on this kind of dialogue.
Obviously some of them become disillusioned with ISIS too once they see how things really are. But that doesn't mean they can't also be disillusioned with Western culture and made to cling to an alternative.
Well they do have a pretty catchy "national anthem"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX3RAjMLgNc
Click the CC for English subtitles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX3RAjMLgNc
Click the CC for English subtitles.
BloodMoney
Banned
lack of education
smokeymicpot
Beat EviLore at pool.
wait, wrong ISIS
im not making light of the actual ISIS btw
Everytime I hear ISIS I will always think of archer.
CloudyTuba
Member
Honestly the best reason I can come up with is because they are so fucking stupid that they could win the gold medal of stupid in an international competition. They really shouldnt be allowed drivers licenses or any other adult responsibilities. They don't qualify.
And this, basically.
And this, basically.
chaobreaker
Member
OK, I get some of these kids feel disenfranchised and only want to be accepted by their peers or rebel against a society that treats them wrong.
But isn't it really fucked up how many of these kinds of kids decide to join a group whose modus operandi is to kill innocent people? I can't even imagine how go from living a comfortable western life to joining a terrorist group.
But isn't it really fucked up how many of these kinds of kids decide to join a group whose modus operandi is to kill innocent people? I can't even imagine how go from living a comfortable western life to joining a terrorist group.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Thanks for this, I've quoted the relevant passages below.
I think this does a pretty good job shedding light on it.
Mammoth Jones
Member
We have a winner. This is really it. Dumb idealistic kids that wanna believe in something and unfortunately this is it.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Wow, this was incredibly insightful. Really gives some cultural info that I don't feel really gets that much exposure in the West. Do you have family from the region or faith (by that I mean Muslim not ISIS obviously)? You just seem to know a lot about the situation.
It's easy to feel powerless in western society, for your life to feel meaningless and without purpose. The money required to have an tangible impact is way beyond what most of us can ever hope of acquiring. ISIS offers you a sense of identity, and a strong tangible path ahead. The only resource you have of any significance is your own life, most people are not willing to spend that resource and it gives you an advantage, it gives you some power. If you life an empty life, dying for a good cause can seem much more appealing than living without one.
Of course it's a lot of different factors for different people but from my own experience it doesn't seem that strange to me that with a slightly different upbringing and fortune in life, ISIS would have been an option at this point.
Of course it's a lot of different factors for different people but from my own experience it doesn't seem that strange to me that with a slightly different upbringing and fortune in life, ISIS would have been an option at this point.
speculawyer
Member
Someone please explain the appeal of any hardcore religion to me. I don't get it.
But I hear it is about belonging to a subgroup, rebellion from others, a feeling of mission, following what you believe to be god's instructions, etc.
Seriously . . . if you really believed you were about to partake in a real mission for a real god, I can see that being quite appealing. But I can't see how people can be completely convinced a god really exists and even if you believe that a god exists, that this plan is really exactly what the god wants you to do. Be a little more skeptical people! What does god need with a starship (or a bunch of humans running around in the desert chopping heads off.)
But I hear it is about belonging to a subgroup, rebellion from others, a feeling of mission, following what you believe to be god's instructions, etc.
Seriously . . . if you really believed you were about to partake in a real mission for a real god, I can see that being quite appealing. But I can't see how people can be completely convinced a god really exists and even if you believe that a god exists, that this plan is really exactly what the god wants you to do. Be a little more skeptical people! What does god need with a starship (or a bunch of humans running around in the desert chopping heads off.)
A huge amount of it is the practical reward. There are stories of 20-something Russian farm boys joining ISIS and becoming the sheikh of an entire province.
Besides the promised heavenly reward, if you join ISIS and don't die, there's a huge chance you could become very wealthy or powerful. The promise of women could also be a big draw for young men. A lot of ISIS members just like the power.
Besides the promised heavenly reward, if you join ISIS and don't die, there's a huge chance you could become very wealthy or powerful. The promise of women could also be a big draw for young men. A lot of ISIS members just like the power.
Orbis Tabula
Member
There's more than 300 million Americans. With a population that large, there's bound to be a couple crazies.
Baki
Member
A lot of people think they are going to help the Syrian people from Bashar's tyranny. There's also a question of whether they know they are joining ISIS, some people think they are joining the FSA.
ISIS isn't the Taliban. I'm pretty sure that most ISIS members are literate and not from poor backgrounds. Foreign ISIS fighters need the financial wherewithal to travel to Syria.
I'm very certain that many ISIS members will be military leaders, magnates, and civil servants in the region after ISIS is destroyed. Many of these people are skilled, wealthy, and have connections. ISIS is very different from traditional terrorist organizations, and this needs to be better understood.
Colonel Mustard
Banned
Starting out, it's less to do with the message and more to do with the community aspect of the group you're a part of. When your entire social circle has inundated itself with the same (bullshit) however, you really start to attach yourself to the same ideals. By this time, there's not much hope because abandoning your social ties can be difficult.
No amount of yelling or factual information from an outside party will change religious people's mindsets. We all learn and shape our beliefs heuristically.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
This really seems to be the case. I do think a lot of Western media, going back to the Gulf War, has liked to paint a picture of primitive capabilities in those regions. As you said this isn't the Taliban, they are a lot more organized with much more efficiently seeded propaganda, especially with the use of social media. Some of the VICE mini docs have illustrated the social media integration, from those that overthrew Saddam to ISIS. We really do need to stop thinking of them as just crazy people living in the desert. This VICE special in particular shows a lot of their organizational aspects and how well built up they are.
https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-full-length
They are like a medieval/ancient army, promising glory and riches to youngsters without hope and future (and other deranged people that are not hopeless but apparently can't fit in a modern society).
It's not that hard to understand when we realize that we are the ones living in the bubble of western civilization where a man goes to prison for killing and raping instead of becoming a warlord.
It's not that hard to understand when we realize that we are the ones living in the bubble of western civilization where a man goes to prison for killing and raping instead of becoming a warlord.
ISIS is basically a nation, albeit one organized in a very loose way. I highly doubt ISIS and its commanders will survive more than a year or two, but the current unrecognized state will probably reflect the rough borders of a future country. ISIS hasn't won and won't win, but their existence and successes have permanently transformed the Middle East.
I'm personally very interested in ISIS' impact on Pan-Arabism. ISIS itself is a very diverse organization without much apparent ethnic or cultural bias: one of its leaders is a ginger from Russia. At the same time, the threat of ISIS may reduce nationalism elsewhere by bringing the various Arab states closer together.
I think people have to be careful to remember that videos like that were produced and approved by the ISIS media wing. They allowed a journalist from Vice there, only on the condition of final editorial control over what was and was not shown. It is essentially a glorified propaganda video, of which they produce about one similar high quality video a month. Only difference is theirs are full of executions and atrocities, as well as religious and societal instruction.
ISIS wants nothing more at the moment than to be thought of and recognized as a state. That is their fundamental goal, to create facts on the ground to support their claim to caliphate. Their official motto is "remaining and expanding". And that about sums up their objective. It's a bit like North Korea where the regime is so secretive that people crave any information they can get coming out, and so are sometimes liable to take and give too much credence to what "official" information they let out. Which is always agenda driven.
Even with that said, ISIS is still not a state. They control territory that is true, and they are attempting to create the illusion of services and rule of law, but presently they are not even at the level of statehood that the Taliban was. Mosul is basically completely without electricity these days, water is an issue, medical supplies, fuel. They are an occupying force presently, and while highly organized at coercion and physical control, are still in my opinion pretty far off from being, even unrecognized, a legitimate state.
Pan Arabism died a long time ago, people in the Middle East identify more with the "Muslim" identity than the ethnic identity (Arab).
Red Liquorice
Member
No they're not, these kids flying over from the west are just idiots who feel disenfranchised. Like someone said above: their fathers would hate it.
The Albatross
Member
Yeah, you're probably right, it's definitely NeoGaf that pushes young girls to join ISIS.
Your avatar is perfect for the post you made OP. As for your question there are reasons why someone from that region would consider it but I don't think the people you are talking about share any of the same beliefs or problems. Who knows why they would even think this was a good direction for their life.
These kids aren't that stupid. This is a radical Muslim organization. On SOME level, that has to appeal to them.
LegendofLex
Member
Yeah, you're right, making derogatory remarks about Muslims (and other non-Western religions and cultures) in general, about the girls who are persuaded to join ISIS (or who convert to non-Western religions), and about the children they might bear is definitely a behavior that's isolated to NeoGAF/this thread/the OP.
Let's not pretend there aren't massive dysfunctional issues in the way many members of certain Western cultures often handle social issues and cultural differences.
Arkam
Member
Some people have shit lives and simply want a way out. They see ISIS as a viable alternative to keeping the status quo.
Pretty similar motivation on why people engage on ANY criminal activity.
That's for non Iraq/Syrian people. In Iraq and Syria the appeal us MUCH more straight forward where is a continuation of a long sectarian war.
Pretty similar motivation on why people engage on ANY criminal activity.
That's for non Iraq/Syrian people. In Iraq and Syria the appeal us MUCH more straight forward where is a continuation of a long sectarian war.
Colonel Mustard
Banned
Cultural norms, especially those that are to the detriment of participants/outsiders, should be up for criticism. Even then, I fail to see any derogatory comments made about Muslim people. I see someone who's confused as to why someone, knowing what we know about ISIS, would think it's a good idea to go fight for this 'cause'.
Edit: To be clear, the girls' decision to leave is completely fine to criticize. To be as straightforward as possible, they're really fucking stupid for leaving. Other than that, yes, the offspring is completely innocent. (Until it's parent's primitive, idiotic ideals have been firmly etched into it's psyche as 'right'.)
Edit: To be clear, the girls' decision to leave is completely fine to criticize. To be as straightforward as possible, they're really fucking stupid for leaving. Other than that, yes, the offspring is completely innocent. (Until it's parent's primitive, idiotic ideals have been firmly etched into it's psyche as 'right'.)
UnluckyKate
Member
indoctrination be aware of it
ShamelessOpportunist
Banned
Well, they're, like, real life Sith lords so maybe somebody finds that cool.
victreeb3l
Member
Same reasons people join gangs and other stupid shit. They feel something missing in them and want to be a part of something.
Night_Knight
Unconfirmed Member
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wanderingprostheyltite
Member
What did my OP have in the way of prejudice towards Muslims? I condemn the acts of ISIS, not the Muslim community. I do recognize there is a strong divide between the way the messages of the faith are perceived by the extremists and how they twist it to suit their agenda. If anything I am fascinated at the melting pot that this belief system has created in the region. I don't have a problem with white girls being with Muslim men, this isn't the racial issue you want it to be.
kids are very idealistic and prone to fantastic delusion and intense passion that often times throws them into situations they may not be prepared for. Especially easy when they're psychologically groomed through internal media and people who know how to influence and gain their confidence, people end up leaving the join the circus, joining a cult, joining the army, joining the freedom fighters, joining the whoever. No one runs off to join the circus at 30.
I bet they don't even allow falafel.
I bet they don't even allow falafel.
There's a bit of difference between the possibility of rape in the Army vs the guarantee of being made into a sex slave with ISIS.
Captain Tuttle
Member
I'm 99.999% sure the answer is religion fanaticism which usually stems from poor education or horrible living conditions/human rights.
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