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TheGreatMightyPoo · Oct 24, 2014

Krejlooc said:
That is all a game is.

A game is something naturally(unless you're a sell-out) made because you enjoy what you are making.

Of course there is planning involved but it isn't anything like an achievement system, especially if it's mandatory.

That's just adding shit for the sake of adding shit.

Unless of course that is part of your vision so like I said, it should be on a developer game-to-game basis if it's there.

vypek · Oct 24, 2014

It probably wouldn't hurt to put it on their next console.

F311 · Oct 24, 2014

I was thinking about this when i slid Bayonetta 2 in earlier.

Sometimes the trophies i can get dictate what game i play when i turn on my ps4, it probably shouldnt but it does.

Krejlooc · Oct 24, 2014

TheGreatMightyPoo said:
A game is something naturally(unless you're a sell-out) made because you enjoy what you are making.

Or course there is planning involved but it isn't anything like an achievement system, especially if it's mandatory.

That's just adding shit for the sake of adding shit.

Unless of course that is part of your vision so like I said, it should be on a developer game-to-game basis if it's there.

Lol you are gravely misinformed about the process of making games - you have to extend numerous interfaces every time you make a game. Thats how open standards work. Thats the entire point of interface.

Trophies and such are just another interface.

Stone Ocean · Oct 24, 2014

jimi_dini said:
To add to this list:
- Ico
- Shadow Of The Colossus

btw. Silent Hill 2 + 3 actually were ruined by trophies. Trophy!!!!

You killed your wife again, isn't that sad?

. Party Time!!!

in fact you don't always kill your wife, so the trophy is even wrong most of the time

<-- Silent Hill 2 spoilers

The 2 games, that I listed, were also ruined. You should feel

sad now, because you killed one of those bosses, but don't because party time!!! trophy!!!! ping!!!!

<-- SotC spoilers

Sony are a bunch of morans for forcing developers to include them.

You can turn off notifications if you don't want to. Devs can - and often do - delay the achievements so it doesn't ruin certain moments even if you care about them.

Achievements/trophies have been used in every single genre of game and have been around for years now and you don't see people whining about them.

Also both games you mentioned had re-releases with Trophies and it wasn't an issue.

jimi_dini · Oct 24, 2014

Krejlooc said:
http://uk.playstation.com/ps3/suppo...35296/item624216/Set-up-trophy-notifications/

Yeah, nice. The Sony morans added that primitive feature years AFTER those games were released. It's a simple switch. An intern could have added that in a few days at best.

Also: there is no way to disable them for ONE game. You have to disable them for all games and even then they still aren't really disabled. The notifications are just hidden. And in case you want them to show up in another game, you have to enable them again.

And there is also still no way for a developer to say "fuck you, we don't WANT to add trophies into our game". The developers also can't themselves decide to hide the notifications.

Stone Ocean said:
You can turn off notifications if you don't want to. Devs can - and often do - delay the achievements so it doesn't ruin certain moments even if you care about them.

Sony themselves didn't delay trophies in Shadow Of The Colossus. I mean even if they delayed them to not pop in the absolutely worst moment possible (they managed to do exactly that), it would still mess up the overall feeling of the game. They would have needed to pop them all after the credits rolled. And then all this feature about seeing who is stuck at which point would be simply lost.

And again, the Sony fucks added that feature a year ago or so. Lots and lots of people requested it. And it took them ages to do it. Should have been there right when they introduced those silly checklists.

protomouse · Oct 24, 2014

Krejlooc said:
Achievements are thrown flags, they are one of the simplest technologies to implement into any game. Perhaps if you're not a programmer this point will be lost on you, but it is essentially one extended class that winds up being little more than a single line of code prior to return on any given function.

Hell, your function return in and of itself can be an achievement.

I am a programmer, so that's not lost on me

. But I was thinking more in terms of game design. Someone has to sit down and think about how to make achievements work in the context of their game, or how to adapt their game so that achievements make sense. If a forced requirement puts pressure on the creative process, that's a bad thing IMO. That said, I'm not sure how much the quality and weight of achievements factor into the certification itself, but I think there's an expectation from gamers that devs now have to recognize.

TheGreatMightyPoo · Oct 24, 2014

Krejlooc said:
Lol you are gravely misinformed about the process of making games - you have to extend numerous interfaces every time you make a game. Thats how open standards work. Thats the entire point of interface.

Trophies and such are just another interface.

Trophies are shoehorned in to appeal to the trendy masses.

Dr. Buni · Oct 24, 2014

Yes, I would love a trophy system for the Wii U. It is pointless to some, but to someone as unmotivated as me, "platinuming" a game serves a great motivator.

Arc Christelle · Oct 24, 2014

Nah. It needs bottlecaps.

Krejlooc · Oct 24, 2014

jimi_dini said:
Yeah, nice. The Sony morans added that primitive feature years AFTER those games were released. It's a simple switch. An intern could have added that in a few days at best.

Also: there is no way to disable them for ONE game. You have to disable them for all games and even then they still aren't really disabled. The notifications are just hidden. And in case you want them to show up in another game, you have to enable them again.

And there is also still no way for a developer to say "fuck you, we don't WANT to add trophies into our game".

You're now arguing about ways in which achievement implementation could improve, not against achievements entirely. Which is good - nobody would disagree with your requests at all, "morans" schtick aside.

Clawww · Oct 24, 2014

I don't see why ever game doesn't have Smash-like trophies that you could play around with just like you'll be able to in Smash 4. Arrange and showcase them on your profile or the main menu/OS and stuff.

Choomp · Oct 24, 2014

Colonel Mustard said:
We've had this discussion to death.

Yes, they probably should, but it should be a more 'Nintendo' approach than some arbitrary number beside your NNID. I like the hat idea for Miis, sorta like the avatar awards with the Xbox.

Edit: Making Miiverse stamps more meaningful would be a good place to start. Let me use the stamps from every game across every community in Miiverse. That, and tying stamps to specific achievments.

Yes, I'd want something like this for Nintendo. Maybe there could be some sort of shop where you could spend points on stuff like Mii outfits and Miiverse stamps.

vypek · Oct 24, 2014

TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Trophies are shoehorned in to appeal to the trendy masses.

It isn't about "trendy masses" at all. Its about taking advantage of psychology and adding incentive to something. And it works.

Stone Ocean · Oct 24, 2014

protomouse said:
I am a programmer, so that's not lost on me . But I was thinking more in terms of game design. Someone has to sit down and think about how to make achievements work in the context of their game, or how to adapt their game so that achievements make sense. If a forced requirement puts pressure on the creative process, that's a bad thing IMO. That said, I'm not sure how much the quality and weight of achievements factor into the certification itself, but I think there's an expectation from gamers that devs now have to recognize.

You could argue this like 6 years ago, but by now pretty much every dev out there should know how to make these. Plus an achievement system is basically a free way of giving your game some minimum replayability, what dev would say no to that?

And honestly, they're little low res badges with little challenges tied to them, I doubt devs spend a significant amount of time making them.

TheGreatMightyPoo · Oct 24, 2014

tempest3 said:
It isn't about "trendy masses" at all. Its about taking advantage of psychology and adding incentive to something. And it works.

Well, I guess that was harsh but that's my mindset about why they are so prevalent nowadays.

If you like them for the right reasons, then great.

I don't personally see a necessity for them to be involved with a system as a universal part though.

Krejlooc · Oct 24, 2014

TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Trophies are shoehorned in to appeal to the trendy masses.

Im talking about yout claim that video games are some sort of organic vision where every decision is virtue of the director of the project and that trophies, by means of interface, are some sort of unnatural design.

All games utilize interface, its how games are made. This dictates the design.

Do you seriously think, for example, that most games have very similar control schemes by accident? Its a design practice pushed by nintendo, sony, and microsoft. Just like trophies. Thats how interface works.

Dizzy · Oct 24, 2014

No. I mostly didnt care about achievements/trophies once the initial buzz wore off,but would sometimes find myself going a little out of my way if a trophy was in easy reach.

Im glad to be free of that habit and to be able to play the old fashioned way without my brain occasionally decided it needs a trophy fix.

jimi_dini · Oct 24, 2014

Krejlooc said:
You're now arguing about ways in which achievement implementation could improve, not against achievements entirely. Which is good - nobody would disagree with your requests at all, "morans" schtick aside.

I'm arguing against them entirely for those type of games.

So if I have to choose between awesome games getting fucked up by Sony + Microsoft or no trophies at all, then I'm going for no trophies at all.

Silent Hill 2 for example is an absolute masterpiece. Developers should have the choice to not implement them. But they don't have that choice anymore. They are forced to add silly checklists, even when it doesn't make any sense at all to do so.

On Wii U developers have the choice to implement achievements. Some do. Some don't. That's ok in my book and the best solution.

And for that "I want to know where my friend is stuck" information, there is Miiverse. Again - the best solution. For example achievements of Deus Ex: Human Revolution were posted there (also optional, I have to enable it). I get quite a lot of screenshots and achievements and such on my activity feed.

vypek · Oct 24, 2014

TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Well, I guess that was harsh but that's my mindset about why they are so prevalent nowadays.

If you like them for the right reasons, then great.

I don't personally see a necessity for them to be involved with a system as a universal part though.

I think they're so prevalent because people noticed that when you add trophies/achievements, people will play a game longer or play a game that they do not have a great deal of interest in. This probably actually falls under behavioral psychology.

I like them but I also know they are not necessary. If I like a game enough, I'll try to get to 100% but I'm more than happy to ditch a game I'm not enjoying even with trophies.

I am interested in knowing if the Wii U had stickers/coins/achievements/trophies system, if that would have brought it greater success.

Alec · Oct 24, 2014

I would be perfectly fine if the stamp system was expanded to an account-wide thing.

Or accessories for Miis, like on the 3DS \ Avatar Awards.

flatearthpandas · Oct 24, 2014

Absolutely.

Many people want them and they don't hurt anybody. You can even make them optional for devs and users alike.

No reason whatsoever to argue they shouldn't exist at all. If you don't like them, don't look at them. Turn off notifications. Hide them from other users. Whatever your issue with them is, it can be addressed while still giving other people the option to enjoy them.

Krejlooc · Oct 24, 2014

jimi_dini said:
I'm arguing against them entirely for those type of games.

So if I have to choose between awesome games getting fucked up by Sony + Microsoft or no trophies at all, then I'm going for no trophies at all.

Silent Hill 2 for example is an absolute masterpiece. Developers should have the choice to not implement them. But they don't have that choice anymore. They are forced to add silly checklists, even when it doesn't make any sense at all to do so.

On Wii U developers have the choice to implement achievements. Some do. Some don't. That's ok in my book and the best solution.

Yes, total removal of all achievements might be your ultimate argument, but the points you are making to support that viewpoint dont need to be taken to hyperbolic extremes. You have pointed out that the achievement beep can take you out of a moment. That doesnt mean the only solution is the total removal of achievements. You're pointing out perfectly fine faults in the current implimentation, which winds up being an argument for reform, not removal.

Kriken · Oct 24, 2014

I personally don't care one way or the other, I've disabled the pop ups on my 360 and PS3, but I like to look at them after the fact. I think what bothers me with them are the lazy ones (Achievement unlocked: You started the game, achievement unlocked: you played chapter 1, etc) and some will break the pacing as I'm unsure why I got said achievement and I'll either
A) Pause the game entirely to see why
B) Have the nagging feeling in the back of my head for a while

But to be clear, I wouldn't mind if Nintendo made a system-wide achievement/trophy/stamp system so long as I could disable notifications in-game.

MrNyarlathotep · Oct 24, 2014

Stone Ocean said:
by now pretty much every dev out there should know how to make these. Plus an _______ system is basically a free way of giving your game some minimum replayability, what dev would say no to that?

I removed a single word to make the point that you can replace that word to make the exact same argument about the following systems:
- Highscore tables
- Multiplayer
- EXP based levelling system
- Time challenges

Do you think every game should have all of the above features?
Are some games better without such a system being forcibly implemented?

I will reiterate my earlier point.
I have no problem with achievements in games where achievements make sense and fit the game.
I have a huge problem with people saying EVERY game MUST have achievements.

Right now, Steam and the WiiU have optional achievements.
There are a vocal minority who want compulsory achievments.

Boogdud · Oct 24, 2014

tempest3 said:
It isn't about "trendy masses" at all. Its about taking advantage of psychology and adding incentive to something. And it works.

Translation: exploiting addictive personalities and epeeners.

HaterIsHating · Oct 24, 2014

I personally don't like them at all, I think they're distracting in a way. I can, however, understand why some people might find them attractive in a way.

So I'd say the optimal solution is to implement them with the following two options:
1. You can determine if your achievements should be viewable by the public / your friends
2. You can determine if you want to see other's (and your own) achievments

jimi_dini · Oct 24, 2014

Krejlooc said:
You have pointed out that the achievement beep can take you out of a moment. That doesnt mean the only solution is the total removal of achievements.

For those games, yes that's the only proper solution. There shouldn't be some artificial checklist of stuff to do in every single game.

Like I already said - plenty of Wii U games have achievements. But not a single developer is forced to add them.

For system wide information about player status there is Miiverse. Achievements CAN be posted there, but it's also not mandatory. That's another "feature" that is missing on Playstation. I am unable to keep them enabled, but on the other hand keep them private - not only in general, but also per game. For example to myself or to my friends only. All of that is possible on Miiverse. I can even post screenshots, which quite a few of my friends on there actually do.

Krejlooc · Oct 24, 2014

MrNyarlathotep said:
I removed a single word to make the point that you can replace that word to make the exact same argument about the following systems:
- Highscore tables
- Multiplayer
- EXP based levelling system
- Time challenges

Do you think every game should have all of the above features?
Are some games better without such a system being forcibly implemented?

I will reiterate my earlier point.
I have no problem with achievements in games where achievements make sense and fit the game.
I have a huge problem with people saying EVERY game MUST have achievements.

Every single game has achievements. Every single one. An achievement is an objective completed. Unless you build a game with absolutely no objectives, your game inherently has achievements.

Your comparison to high score tables and what-not are poor. Score is a tangible benefit of achieving a goal in-game. The goal in-game is the achievement, score is just one implementation. you think you are arguing against achievements, but you're really just arguing against specific rewards.

jimi_dini said:
For those games, yes that's the only proper solution.

You yourself listed other solutions, including a per-game ability to disable notifications.

SalvaPot · Oct 24, 2014

Make it hats for your Mii. 5 hats per game. One for playing it for the first time, 3 for gameplay stuff. One for ending the game. Throw in a costume for a super hard achievement.

And let you trade them or sell them.

Half Life 3 confirmed

MrNyarlathotep · Oct 24, 2014

Krejlooc said:
Unless you build a game with absolutely no objectives, your game inherently has achievements.

Such games exist, therefore you are arguing they shouldn't.

Achievements dictate the goals of a game just as much as adding a highscore table or EXP absed levelling system does.

The two platforms made by game designers do not have compulsory achievements.

bemusedchunk · Oct 24, 2014

Everyone clamoring to make it an opt-out to please us folks who don't want to see it or don't even want devs spending time on it.

What if this was an opt-in system instead. Something akin to a message board - where you can take a screenshot of something you did in game, and then post it to the games message boarding saying how great of a job you did. And then other uses can "Woo!" or "Thumbs" things to let you know how well you did!

Dr. Black Jack · Oct 24, 2014

LDAF said:
I think stamps are Nintendo's achievements, and it's actually a pretty neat way of integrating them, I'd say.

Yup. They're actually usable too, unlike Trophies/Achievements.

Also the Plaza Tickets on the 3DS count.

Stone Ocean · Oct 24, 2014

Achievementd are system features, not gameplay features. Do you think some PS4 games shouldn't be allowed to be streamed?

Again, there is no such thing as a game that achievements don't work. Every genre has used it at some point. You can turn off notifications and never enter the achievements screen, what is the issue here?

kodecraft · Oct 24, 2014

I think they should, it's the little things thatcan make a big impact sometimes, nothing better than playing a game having fun and triggering off an achievement.

Palette Swap · Oct 24, 2014

Boogdud said:
Translation: exploiting addictive personalities and epeeners.

A cornerstone of video gaming, considering every high score, leaderboards, ingame time system was built around that.

Imagine the horror of a machine exploiting these compulsions by asking for more of your money just to brag to your friends.
That's an arcade.

Krejlooc · Oct 24, 2014

MrNyarlathotep said:
Such games exist, therefore you are arguing they shouldn't.

There are no games without objectives. Every game, even quote-non-games like Brain training or Dear Esther still have objectives. Everything has an objective, even if the objective is to simply observe.

You are arguing on extremely superficial levels.

bemusedchunk said:
Everyone clamoring to make it an opt-out to please us folks who don't want to see it or don't even want devs spending time on it.

What if this was an opt-in system instead. Something akin to a message board - where you can take a screenshot of something you did in game, and then post it to the games message boarding saying how great of a job you did. And then other uses can "Woo!" or "Thumbs" things to let you know how well you did!

Leafhopper said:
Leafhopper said:

Also, most Nintendo games, at least one published or developed by Nintendo, have achievements built into the games as others have pointed out. However they seem even less relevant somehow.

Click to expand...

The argument isn't so much for achievements in and of themselves, it's a call for a system-wide implementation. There are a number of benefits from a system interface opposed to a per-game implementation, the most obvious being an easy form of cross-game comparison. Take, for example, this suggestion:

Tempesta di Fuoco said:

Nowhere Man said:

In-game achievements like the bottlecaps in TW101 don't work for me because they're in the game only. If they were linked to my miiverse profile viewable outside the game they'd serve the same function. It's not about showing off, it's just about having something viewable on record, even if I'm the only one looking.

Click to expand...

Then make a Miiverse post about the bottle cap with a screenshot. Done.

Click to expand...

This completely misses the point being made. It's not about just being able to show off your achievements online. To wit:

Krejlooc said:

This is the entire reason implementing such a feature system-wide is a great thing. It's neat to be able to bring up a list of my trophies/achievements and compare them to my buddies. Not for competition, but as a way to see what sort of games we like. If my buddies have maxed out all the achievements or trophies in a game, its usually a sign to me that the game is worth checking out.

Such features really only work at a system level. On a game-by-game basis, I have to actually have the game in the first place to check the trophy/achievement progress.

Click to expand...

Taking a picture of your achievements and posting it to miiverse accomplishes none of what I just described.

jimi_dini · Oct 24, 2014

Krejlooc said:
You yourself listed other solutions, including a per-game ability to disable notifications.

That's a player initiated action. The player shouldn't have to do this.

Am I - as a player - supposed to research for which games I should better turn off trophies? Why should I have to do this? Turning them off is just a workaround. Not a solution. The actual solution of mine is not buying PS3 games anymore. And also not buying a PS4.

Let's say GAF had some audio code, that screamed every 10 posts into your ears that you just earned a trophy. But you can't disable that for GAF alone. You would have to turn audio off for everything you do. So actually you would have to switch audio off and on depending on what you are doing. That wouldn't get on your nerves, wouldn't it?

The developer STILL have to create a silly checklist with stuff to do. The developer is not able to simply not have any trophies at all. Why is that? Why is anyone okay with this? Sony doesn't force rock solid framerates. Sony doesn't force 720p+1080p. Sony doesn't force quality control. But Sony forces that everyone adds trophies. Sony doesn't even force anyone to include trophies, that are actually achievable. This doesn't make sense.

I don't think that the original developers of Ico, Shadow Of The Colossus, Silent Hill 2 and so on would have been fine with this checklist stuff. It destroys the atmosphere in those games. And it's also not just about notifications. The player shouldn't get a stupid checklist with things to do for every single game.

Nesther · Oct 24, 2014

A Nintendo-unique trophy system could be really cool. Stamps, stars or whatever. But I doubt we'll ever get something like that, Nintendo likes to do their own thing.

bemusedchunk · Oct 24, 2014

Krejlooc said:
There are no games without objectives. Every game, even quote-non-games like Brain training or Dear Esther still have objectives. Everything has an objective, even if the objective is to simply observe.

You are arguing on extremely superficial levels.

I don't accept the answer.
You can't tell me that the objective of this game is to play the game.

Look at games like Minecraft. There is no explicit objective.
And no - exploring is not an objective.

Krejlooc · Oct 24, 2014

jimi_dini said:
That's a player initiated action. The player shouldn't have to do this.

So make the default option be off. Your arguments are all "It isn't this, so it should be removed entirely" instead of "it isn't this, but it should be this."

bemusedchunk said:
I don't accept the answer.
You can't tell me that the objective of this game is to play the game.

Sure I can.

Look at games like Minecraft. There is no explicit objective.
And no - exploring is not an objective.

Why isn't it? That's the point of minecraft, to explore and build.

Carlisle · Oct 24, 2014

Nah. The motivation is good, though, but not necessary. I've found that I'm more driven to 100% Nintendo 1st party games than games that give you a trophy for it. Probably because the game should just be good enough that you want to keep playing. Having an achievement system is a lazy way to keep people playing your game even if it isn't good enough to.

Tathanen · Oct 24, 2014

It's less stressful for me without one.

Needlecrash · Oct 24, 2014

Sure, why not?

Leafhopper · Oct 24, 2014

Nesther said:
A Nintendo-unique trophy system could be really cool. Stamps, stars or whatever. But I doubt we'll ever get something like that, Nintendo likes to do their own thing.

If they do implement it, I vote for Mario power stars. I would say Mario coins or something but that's what Club Nintendo uses.

jimi_dini · Oct 24, 2014

Krejlooc said:
So make the default option be off. Your arguments are all "It isn't this, so it should be removed entirely" instead of "it isn't this, but it should be this."

You are always ignoring that in a few games trophies have simply no place at all. They simply shouldn't be there. The developer should decide, not Sony or Microsoft and force it down their and the player's throats.

Don't worry. Your beloved artificial checklists would still be in 99% of all games even if this was the case. Well case in point - Wii U. Plenty of Wii U 3rd party games feature achievements. Even include Miiverse support. Some Nintendo games even have the stamps. But not all of them. And that's good.

Anyway when you are ignoring 80% of my post, then I have not much more to "discuss" with you.

strange guy · Oct 24, 2014

Sure, there are people that don't play games without trophies/achievements. It could be a good incentive to play more WII U games for these people. Not like this feature is going to damage the experience for those who don't care about them

brandonh83 · Oct 24, 2014

Miiverse sort of helps fill that void for me personally, but I played games for... how many years before the Xbox 360? I'll be fine.

Krejlooc · Oct 24, 2014

jimi_dini said:
You are always ignoring that in a few games trophies have simply no place at all. They simply shouldn't be there. The developer should decide, not Sony or Microsoft and force it down their and the player's throats.

because I don't agree with that point at all. All games have objectives.

Don't worry. Your beloved artificial checklists would still be in 99% of all games even if this was the case. Well case in point - Wii U. Plenty of Wii U 3rd party games feature achievements. Even include Miiverse support. Some Nintendo games even have the stamps. But not all of them. And that's good.

Anyway when you are ignoring 80% of my post, then I have not much more to "discuss" with you.

I wouldn't ignore 80% of your posts if they weren't filled with needlessly inflammatory language like "your beloved artificial checkpoints."

Palette Swap · Oct 24, 2014

jimi_dini said:
You are always ignoring that in a few games trophies have simply no place at all. They simply shouldn't be there. The developer should decide, not Sony or Microsoft and force it down their and the player's throats.

To be fair, unless I'm missing something in your argument, iOS and Steam have system wide achievement paradigms that address your concerns: there's no mandate for every game to support achievements, it's up to devs, but achievements are tracked on a system/account level.

Both notions aren't necessarily antagonistic.

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