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Doctor Who Off-Season | Hey Missy, you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind

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A lot of it just doesn't go anywhere. Half the story, I think, was Clara hanging out at Vastra's house having "tea-and-biscuits"-paced exposition humor.

How long was the scene with Half-faced Man just sitting there, looking vaguely menacing, but not actually doing anything? How long did Clara hold her breath? It was just all so dragged out.
 
Moffat basically said one of Eleventh Hour's weaknesses was that everything was new, so we're treated to Lizard Irene Adler and Gimli with a raygun yet a-fucking-gain.
 

A-V-B

Member
If we don't know about how sentient time-traveling machines work (hint: they don't exist), we also don't know how million year old eggs which look and feel exactly like the moon work (they also don't exist, but who cares?).

The consequences for Kill the Moon were all contained within Kill the Moon. There's no need for anything wider than that. Characters died, the world was put in peril, and people contemplated a terrible decision. We don't need every episode following it to be like 'hey, remember that time with the moon and then the thing happened?'. And I really disagree about Courtney. She was a fun character in The Caretaker, but she was much better in Kill the Moon. I think she really felt like a genuine person at times. She wanted to feel important, but she was overwhelmed by everything going on and just wanted to go home after seeing that. But when it came down to it, she stepped back in the action and realized that she wanted to be a part of the decision. This is a really good arc for a character to have over the course of an episode. Her character also worked pretty well for a metaphor for the people of Earth who had lost interest in space and finding out what was out there.

This is lyrical science fiction, the sort of which Doctor Who did back in the day, but has not really messed around with much in recent years (Gridlock kind of hit this mark a little bit). It's a majestic episode with some stunning imagery and amazing ideas, and it wraps it up with the faintest of science-fiction paints, but it's not concerned at all with the idea of if anything is scientifically possible. And that's just the way that Doctor Who should be. Warriors' Gate is full of things which are completely impossible, too, but that doesn't stop it from being brilliant.

In a sea of quirky characters, Victorian outfits, boring robots and spaceships, and worn out premises, Kill the Moon stands out apart from the crowd. It does things that are only possible to do in Doctor Who, and it doesn't care at all about what anyone else is doing.

Well, okay. You thought it was brilliantly written in basically every facet, and I think it was written as if with zero experience in storytelling. Totally incompatible taste here, but we've expressed our opinions and I suppose that's what counts. Happy you enjoyed it.
 
Steven Moffat's Robot 2: This Time The Brig Is A Lizard Lady
I honestly think he'd have to have Missy use Sarah Jane's corpse as a marionette to beat how weirdly offensive that cameo was.
...Eleventh Hour had weaknesses?
According to Moffat, yeah. I think it was how stressful it was on him too, but a lot of people criticized how "new" everything was.

Also, has the Christmas special been named yet?! Can we finally get "Twelfth Night" and be done with it!?!
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Moffat basically said one of Eleventh Hour's weaknesses was that everything was new, so we're treated to Lizard Irene Adler and Gimli with a raygun yet a-fucking-gain.

Eleventh Hour's weakness isn't that everything is new, its that it ends with the Doctor giving a self-masturbatory grandstanding speech that establishes off the bat that Moffat's Who isn't interested in continuing one of Davies' most important themes, which is that while the Doctor is clearly central in importance to his own fictional universe nothing but bad can happen when he becomes aware of that. Jettisoned right away in favor of three seasons of the Doctor being the baddest motherfucker in the room and knowing it, with only cursory attempts at "punishing" him for his hubris and there I go again goddamnit
 

A-V-B

Member
One of the reasons I do miss RTD's era is the feeling of connectedness between the seasons and characters.

RTD loved to have events stick around and influence the story personally and abroad. As if the world was lived in. I think Moffat slightly too quick moving to his next bag of ideas, and not letting consequences sink in.
 

M.Bluth

Member
tl;dr: avoid doing the “most/largest/baddest ______ in the world/galaxy” when it’s not necessary, and if you do make it worth it with reasonably tangible effects. Otherwise it ends up cheapening the whole thing.

I've really liked the season, but I definitely agree with this.
And, though I liked it unlike many here, it was just silly for the Doctor to say about going into a Dalek "Welcome to the most dangerous place in the universe." That also doesn't really mesh well with 12's character, I feel. He shouldn't be so prone to hyperbole the same way 11 was.
 
One of the reasons I do miss RTD's era is the feeling of connectedness between the seasons and characters.

RTD loved to have events stick around and influence the story personally and abroad. I think Moffat slightly too quick moving to his next bag of ideas, and not letting consequences sink in.

He was the king of the plot arc. And it didn't even need to be particularly "in your face". Season 1, for all it's weirdness, has one of the best interwoven plot arcs ever. And I know people hate Last of the Time Lords, but the build up to that event? Amazing, for me as a teenager anyway.
 

A-V-B

Member
He was the king of the plot arc. And it didn't even need to be particularly "in your face". Season 1, for all it's weirdness, has one of the best interwoven plot arcs ever. And I know people hate Last of the Time Lords, but the build up to that event? Amazing, for me as a teenager anyway.

Love me some Utopia and Derek Jacobi. The briefest glimpse of an amazing, truly malevolent Master.
 

A-V-B

Member
I would like to see Missy again, but maybe slightly less insane?

We've had two bananas Masters in a row. Time for some brooding, boiling evil. And not "mwahahahaaaaa, Doctor."

But someone you feel so intelligent, they could provide a match for the Doctor. Gomez could pull it off given the right story. Death in Heaven was just like... "I'm insane! I like to kill! I WIN! Wait, no I don't, I'm outta here!"

She did have a moment in the graveyard. Just one line. I forget what it was, but for a split second I saw the craziness drop away to reveal her cold and terrifying (nougatty) center. It was awesome. Need more of that.

ESPECIALLY since Capaldi is less whacky than Tennant and Smith.
 

Vibranium

Banned
I would like to see Missy again, but maybe slightly less insane?

We've had two bananas Masters in a row. Time for some brooding, boiling evil. And not "mwahahahaaaaa, Doctor."

But someone you feel so intelligent, they could provide a match for the Doctor. Gomez could pull it off given the right story. Death in Heaven was just like... "I'm insane! I like to kill! I WIN! Wait, no I don't, I'm outta here!"

She did have a moment in the graveyard. Just one line. I forget what it was, but for a split second I saw the craziness drop away to reveal her cold and terrifying (nougatty) center.

I like how crazy Missy is though, unlike Simm's Master she is more self-aware and playful with the Doctor. My ultimate dream would to have Gomez and Capaldi be companions for at least half a season, maybe have the Doctor keep the Mistress under control? I just love how effective she is at getting under his skin. I agree that her more serious side would be important to flesh out though.

Also, fantastic thread title haha, one of the greatest Master/Mistress lines in DW ever in my opinion.
 
For my money, his reveal as the Master is greatest single moment in the whole new series.

Yeah, I'd throw my hat into that ring. I was discussing it the other day but... that moment. Martha not having a clue, Jacobi descending into evil, Tennant, who really hasn't freaked out since Rose left, just breaking down because Oh my god who the hell could this be. Oh, and the fantastic "Strange, Strange Creatures" firing up in the background.

"I'm the Mistress..." couldn't possibly compare, as great as it was. The great thing about Missy is to me, she can be both calculating and crazy. Simm's Master was just nuts, she's nuts with conviction and, yeah, self-awareness. There's less anger, she's much more calm, which of course makes her all the more imposing. Even when Capaldi foils her she doesn't seem bothered. She wins, even when she loses.
 

A-V-B

Member
I like how crazy Missy is though, unlike Simm's Master she is more self-aware and playful with the Doctor.

Yeah, but she wasn't very threatening. She killed Osgood (Zygon Osgood? Whatever.) But that's about it. Never did I feel that any part of her plan was remotely threatening to the Doctor. Barely had to lift a finger.

She needs to raise herself up to his level and challenge him. Be part of a real villain relationship, which means taking both characters to the absolute edge of their abilities and making them the best they can be.
 
Gomez's version of the Master is very similar to Simm's, but I think she's more believably vulnerable, and more believably insane. I've never really cared that much for Simm's Master.
 
Yeah, but she wasn't very threatening. She killed Osgood (Zygon Osgood? Whatever.) But that's about it. Never did I feel that any part of her plan was remotely threatening to the Doctor. Barely had to lift a finger.

She needs to raise herself up to his level and challenge him. Be part of a real villain relationship, which means taking both characters to the absolute edge of their abilities and making them the best they can be.

I don't think she wanted to. Remember, she wants The Doctor back on her side (for whatever twisted reasons). For all Death in Heaven's faults, I really liked that aspect of it.
 

Fireblend

Banned
It doesn't come as a surprise to anyone, but I adored season 8. Capaldi's my favorite nuWho Doctor already. List time!

Deep Breath: 6.5/10 - Good, but slow-paced and I don't like the colorless victorian setting.
Into the Dalek: 7/10 - An improvement. A good Dalek story with some great scenes.
Robot of Sherwood: 7/10 - Legitimately funny, but that nonsense resolution hurts it.
Listen: 7.5/10 - Love the concept and the resolution, but I feel like the pacing was somewhat off. I was never too sure of what it was it that moved characters from one place to the next. Still, memorable.
Time Heist: 5/10 - I thought it was generic and bland, and I'm a sucker for heist stories, so I was disappointed. Wasted potential.
The Caretaker: 7.5/10 - About as funny as Sherwood, except the resolution did make sense. Dat jump though.
Kill the Moon: 8/10 - Love it. Clara's and the Doctor's awful relationship was something I loved this season, and here it kind of climaxes.
Mummy on the Orient Express: 9/10 - What Doctor Who should be when it's not focusing on some season-long plot.
Flatline: 9/10 - See above.
In the Forest of the Night: 5/10 - I think we all agree here.
Dark Water: 7/10 - Didn't care much for all that setup, but it was alright.
Death in Heaven: 8/10 - I liked the ending, a departure for Moffat from his usual fairytale magical ending, which I enjoyed.

It had kind of a slow start, but in retrospective, there were only 2 episodes I would be tempted to skip on rewatch (Time Heist and Forest). Great season.
 
The fact we're talking about Santa Claus being an actual character in Doctor Who weirds me the fuck out.

Also, can we have a nick name for Zygon Osgood? Maybe Osgon, or Zygood.
 

A-V-B

Member
I wonder if his giant bag full of toys is bigger in the inside?

I so, SO want Santa Claus to be a Time Lord. His sleigh and reindeer are just part of his TARDIS's chameleon circuit.

But knowing Moffat, probably not. Though RTD would probably do it. And I'd love him for it haha
 

Dalek

Member
Well that could describe the whole episode (so many Moffatt episodes actually haha)

Oh, and here's that GOAT Master reveal scene, in case anybody forgot. Damn.

EDIT: Aw, doesn't have Tennant freaking out :(

To me-that's the greatest TV cliffhanger. I couldn't wait to see how the hell what happened after The Master stole The TARDIS. Also-I thought it was clever that Professor Yana regenerates inside the TARDIS, so The Doctor doesn't see his new face.
 

Vibranium

Banned
Yeah, but she wasn't very threatening. She killed Osgood (Zygon Osgood? Whatever.) But that's about it. Never did I feel that any part of her plan was remotely threatening to the Doctor. Barely had to lift a finger.

She needs to raise herself up to his level and challenge him. Be part of a real villain relationship, which means taking both characters to the absolute edge of their abilities and making them the best they can be.

I can agree with you, though it didn't feel like Missy wanted the Doctor truly dead or anything. I think that she wants to try to fix their broken friendship in her own crazy way. RIP Osgood by the way, I thought she was cute, but not really companion material (a fan avatar character mainly).

That's what Series 9 is for though, since we're getting more of Michelle! :D
 

A-V-B

Member
I can agree with you, though it didn't feel like Missy wanted the Doctor truly dead or anything. I think that she wants to try to fix their broken friendship in her own crazy way.

That's what Series 9 is for though, since we're getting more of Michelle! :D

Which is awesome news. Gomez is great, I just want to see more stuff for her role.
 

Vibranium

Banned
Santa Claus actually fits into the DW universe really damn well when I think about it, because of all the mysterious questions surrounding the "legend". I can't wait for what crazy explanations they have behind his travelling and presents in the Christmas special.

Also, if Capaldi flies a sled I will mark out hard lol.
 

A-V-B

Member
Santa Claus actually fits into the DW universe really damn well when I think about it, because of all the mysterious questions surrounding the "legend". I can't wait for what crazy explanations they have behind his travelling and presents.

Also, if Capaldi flies a sled I will mark out hard lol.

"DOCTOR WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO"

"ONLY THING WE CAN DO SAVE CHRISTMAS! ON DANCER ON BUTLER ON ROGER AND POGO STICK"

Yeah. Ultimate Christmas cheese. Let's rock.
 

Dalek

Member
Santa's Sack of toys has to be bigger on the inside, after all. And his Sleigh must be a TARDIS-how else can he get around to all the houses in the world in one night?
 

Fireblend

Banned
There's no way the Xmas episode will disappoint me
unless they bring danny back
.

I'm fine with them bringing back Osgood though :'(
 
I'm getting a bit tired of this timey wimey nonsense. There are supposed to be certain fixed points in time but yet the earth being saved (over and over again) is never one of them, so we always have this risk of everything being undone.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
Missy was very Joker-like in the best way possible. I hope there's an episode where they're forced to work together, it will be so much fun even if a bit cliché.

Unrelated, but I wonder if In the Forest of the Night will go down as one of the worst episodes of the show. I feel that even the weakest or most clumsy episodes have people being able to explain what was good about them, but with this one everyone just agrees that it was a turd and leaves it at that.
 

Vibranium

Banned
Santa's Sack of toys has to be bigger on the inside, after all. And his Sleigh must be a TARDIS-how else can he get around to all the houses in the world in one night?

Maybe Santa stole Timelord technology? He's never really changed appearance much aside from his hair and beard color so I don't think he is one himself. He would certainly have theft in common with the Doc.

"DOCTOR WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO"

"ONLY THING WE CAN DO SAVE CHRISTMAS! ON DANCER ON BUTLER ON ROGER AND POGO STICK"

Yeah. Ultimate Christmas cheese. Let's rock.

Haha I can totally hear this in his Scottish accent, it also seems like something Moffat would love to add in.
 

Goldrush

Member
I'm really glad they didn't tie the Mummy benefactor back to the Master. Would love for the show to build him/her up as a recurring, but not series-long, villain. Beside having to create a new evil businessman once or twice every series, they could just skip the BS introduction and just dump the Doctor straight into trap.
 
Santa Claus actually fits into the DW universe really damn well when I think about it, because of all the mysterious questions surrounding the "legend". I can't wait for what crazy explanations they have behind his travelling and presents in the Christmas special.

Also, if Capaldi flies a sled I will mark out hard lol.

Here's a sentence I never thought I'd type: Santa Claus actually fits thematically in with the season. Season 8 was all about lies and deception, and now we have possibly the world's biggest collective lie manifested into a character.

Unrelated, but I wonder if In the Forest of the Night will go down as one of the worst episodes of the show. I feel that even the weakest or most clumsy episodes have people being able to explain what was good about them, but with this one everyone just agrees that it was a turd and leaves it at that.

I've actually seen a lot of positive reactions (or at least not out right bile) from people elsewhere on the interwebs, primarily 'older' people or at least parents. I think the fairytale aspect resonated a lot for people with kids. But even people who like it still like it with reservations.

But within this thread? Sure, probably. We need some kind of whipping horse :)
 
Nope. It's the perfect episode.

Well, the villain could have been better. A mysterious person escaping from what I assume was a shadow proclamation prison who was "prisoner zero"? Perfect ground for setting up a new antagonist, but instead we got the worm. :/

Still second only to "Spearhead in Space" when it comes to regen eps though. great stuff.
 

Slowdive

Banned
Apparently Moffat said in the latest Doctor Who magazine that The Doctor hasn't realized that the time lock no longer works, and confirmed that the barn was on Gallifrey.
 
I for one think the Pasternoster crew are a blight on the show really. Hate 'em. Shame, since they were good in their first few appearances.

Also: Santa is an interesting one, because they won't be able to have the Doctor play it like Robin Hood; the Doctor can't deny his existance on Christmas day at prime time with tons of kids who still believe watching... so I'll be interested to see how it handles that bit.

One of the best lines Moffat ever wrote was about him, mind: "Look at you, bouncing about, you're like Father Christmas! // Who says I'm not? Red bicycle when you were twelve. // *Rose looks dumbfounded*)
 
Apparently Moffat said in the latest Doctor Who magazine that The Doctor hasn't realized that the time lock no longer works, and confirmed that the barn was on Gallifrey.

Cool, so the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-Weres are all out there somewhere now

good job clara
 
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