PS3 EyeToy?

[Gek54]

Even though these new kinds of features are available, persuading games developers to use them is an uphill struggle, says Marks. He admits that there remain limitations with the EyeToy - fast, complex movements may remain problematic, for example - but developers might be able to find creative ways to get around them, he says. Marks gives the example of early computer games in which the graphics pallet was limited to four colours. What developers quickly learned to do was swap pallets in the middle of generating a scene so that the top half of the screen was rendered with different colours to the bottom half. It was an idea that effectively doubled the number of colours that the player would see. "It's those kinds of tricks that we need to see more of for the EyeToy," he says. Some are already emerging. For example, there is no force feedback with the EyeToy - get hit by a virtual ball or bullet, say, and you feel nothing. However, you can achieve a remarkable approximation using sound. "Your brain does most of the work," Marks says. "Sound doesn't replace force feedback, but it is the next best thing." Marks has his sights set on some new tricks, too. One of the biggest drawbacks of video input at the moment is that it gives only a two-dimensional image of the player. His dream is to translate the three-dimensional movements of the player into the actions of a character or object in the game. Stereo images produced with two cameras are not the answer, he says, because such an arrangement has to be carefully calibrated each time the game is played to correct for any slight differences in alignment of the cameras. "That is a stumbling block for home use," he says. Another option is to measure distance using the camera's focusing system, but that gives only a rough idea based on what part of the image the camera has focused on. A much more promising approach is beginning to take shape thanks to a new generation of cameras that are sensitive to infrared light as well as visible wavelengths. These cameras can record accurate three-dimensional images using infrared flashes (see Illustration). When a scene - a player holding one hand out towards the camera, say - is illuminated with an infrared flash, the games console can measure how long it takes the light to travel to the player's body and be reflected back into the camera. This information is used to create a contour map of the player. Repeat the process 60 times a second and you have a 3D movie. "With a 3D camera, You can import your entire body into the game" Marks has already begun experiments. With a 3D camera, he can import his entire body into a game. When he dances, his on-screen character - a skeleton at the moment - dances too. When he punches or kicks, the skeleton mimics his movements exactly. With this kind of technology, says Marks, your imagination is the limit.

http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/mg19025481.500

[BlueTsunami]

Revolution am....

*RUNS AWAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[kaching]

Marks had demonstrated the infrared capabilities at least two years back now. He's been running the experiments for at least that long now. I can't access the full article, Gek - do you have access to it? Does it say more about how far along they are with the infrared camera research?

[Mrbob]

Yeah can you post the entire article for us.

[Agent X]

I don't have access to the entire article, but the excerpt that Gek54 posted is very interesting. Like kaching said above, I've also heard about them using infrared in future EyeToy applications, but this article (or at least this excerpt) does a good job of explaining how it could potentially work, without delving into obscure or confusing technical terms.

I also like how Dr. Marks gave a nod to old-school game design, and the way programmers from many years ago devised creative approaches to solve technical problems. It's this type of "thinking outside the box" that enabled a lot of talented developers on old systems to surpass perceived limitations documented in the "paper" specifications.

[Zaptruder]

This along with the Endorphin character animation stuff... it's almost GAMEOVER REVOLUTION! (ok not quite, but it certainly does have its own on the revmote).

[marvelharvey]

Great piece of tech....

OK, I can handle moving my arms around with the RevMote, but the moment designers want me to stand up, jump, kick, punch and back flip my way through games, I will sit right back down. I can do that outside, for free

[Russ]

Rev ports to the PS3? WOW

[kaching]

Please don't derail the conversation by turning this into a face-off with the Rev controller.

[Mrbob]

It would be cool if sony bundled the eyetoy with every system.

LETS DRIVE THE PRICE UP MORE.

[SolidSnakex]

Well in his OPM interview last year Phil said they'd likely pack it in with the system once it was finished. It's not going to be ready for launch it seems.

[Mrbob]

Well in his OPM interview last year Phil said they'd likely pack it in with the system once it was finished. It's not going to be ready for launch it seems.

Weird. That doesn't make much sense though. Why pack it in after. Put it in every system. If they are gonna pack it in i bet it makes launch.

[mr_nothin]

Yeah can you post the entire article for us.

I mean who gives a damn...really?
Its only text..its not like its not 56k friendly.....stop being so stuckup.

[Mrbob]

I mean who gives a damn...really? Its only text..its not like its not 56k friendly.....stop being so stuckup.

??

That isnt the complete article. I don't feel like paying 5 bucks to get it.

[SolidSnakex]

Weird. That doesn't make much sense though. Why pack it in after. Put it in every system. If they are gonna pack it in i bet it makes launch.

Well if they pack it in later that gives developers incentive to take the device seriously instead of just a few using it, and that'll give the people who bought the system early a reason to buy Eyetoy. If its not ready for launch there's not much they can do.

[Rhindle]

The problem with all these systems, no matter how sophisticated, is that movement still basically boils down to moving your arms and upper body around, while being forced to remain stationary. There just aren't a lot of gameplay scenarios that involved standing around stationary.

IMO Eyetoy-type devices (and Revmote for that matter) should function as a supplement for gamepads, not as a substitute. If the level of sensitivity gets to the point where hand and finger signals and facial expressions can be reliably recognized, that opens up interesting possibilities, but not at the expense of sacrificing pad control as the primary input device.

[mckmas8808]

I want to read the whole article!!! Sounds promising though.

[Mefisutoferesu]

Well in his OPM interview last year Phil said they'd likely pack it in with the system once it was finished. It's not going to be ready for launch it seems.

Mmmm... I was under the impression it went more like, he wanted to package it with the PS3, but he didn't know if that was feasible.

[Kingofthenet]

Think of the possibilies, instead of learning hard to control flight Simulators, you could just stick your arms out, make plane noises and wait for the guys with nets to come and send you packing, to the nut house.If you need a more visual idea of what this would look like, picture Harvey Kietel in Bad Lutenient, when he is over that chicks house and dead drunk:)

[gimz]

i wonder how many game will have use of the eye toy

[Dragmire]

This sounds like it would make your arms tired. When I play games, I want to be able to l;ay back and relax with a pillow and a face mask while I slowly slip into a coma.

[The Take Out Bandit]

This sounds like it would make your arms tired.

No shit!?

When I play games, I want to be able to l;ay back and relax with a pillow and a face mask while I slowly slip into a coma.

If you've been paying any attention to this guy's motivation for developing the Eye Toy you'd know it's to get gamers off their lazy asses.

Ignoring that, Antigrav is a great fucking game!

If they can improve upon the image detection of the Eyetoy 2, then I want an Antigrav sequel, no questions asked. It's one of the best non-THPS "skating" games this side of Top Skater.

[marvelharvey]

Please don't derail the conversation by turning this into a face-off with the Rev controller.

Nobody has done.


Anyway, most of the comments from my 'GTA ONLY' friends about eyetoy were complaints about having to see themselves on the screen, they enjoy being in a fantasy world. Not being reminded about their bad hair and acne. I think this new body-contour technology could finally bridge that gap, some people just don't like looking at themselves. Controlling a simple-skeleton would certainly appeal to them.

Even though this tech is using depth perception, it's still going to have some trouble when players move in such a way that their limbs become hidden. If I put my arm behind my back, what will the skeleton do on screen? The camera can't scan behind me. So I'm guessing that developers will have to use some 'fudging' technology to estimate where the player's body parts are when obscured.

[kaching]

IMO Eyetoy-type devices (and Revmote for that matter) should function as a supplement for gamepads, not as a substitute. If the level of sensitivity gets to the point where hand and finger signals and facial expressions can be reliably recognized, that opens up interesting possibilities, but not at the expense of sacrificing pad control as the primary input device.

Functioning either as a supplement or standalone aren't mutually exclusive capabilities of either input mechanism. Eyetoy already has a fairly fine level of sensitivity and can pick up on slight motions. Presumably PS3 eyetoy will have a higher resolution camera allowing it to pick up on even finer details. I do hope there's more exploration of Eyetoy as a supplemental control mechanism as a result, either keying off the controller, head, face, torso, etc. for additional input queues.

[KiNeSiS]

U-FORCE 2

[The Take Out Bandit]

Anyway, most of the comments from my 'GTA ONLY' friends about eyetoy were complaints about having to see themselves on the screen, they enjoy being in a fantasy world.

Buy Antigrav!

It's the first Eyetoy game in which everything is a game world, and not some wacky gimmick of your stupid ass (speaking generally here) on TV. You're using your body motion to control your on screen avatar.

It's quite rocking, and easily the best Eyetoy game made by far.

See if you can snag a copy on eBay, it's totally worth it @ $20.

[kaching]

Nobody has done.

It was preemptive and mostly directed at Russ' comment, not yours.

Anyway, most of the comments from my 'GTA ONLY' friends about eyetoy were complaints about having to see themselves on the screen, they enjoy being in a fantasy world. Not being reminded about their bad hair and acne. I think this new body-contour technology could finally bridge that gap, some people just don't like looking at themselves. Controlling a simple-skeleton would certainly appeal to them.

This infrared technology isn't strictly required in order to remove the player from being displayed onscreen - current Eyetoy tech can already do that. See Eyetoy Antigrav - the game keys to your hands and head (through a calibration step) and then maps your motions to an onscreen avatar.

Even though this tech is using depth perception, it's still going to have some trouble when players move in such a way that their limbs become hidden. If I put my arm behind my back, what will the skeleton do on screen? The camera can't scan behind me. So I'm guessing that developers will have to use some 'fudging' technology to estimate where the player's body parts are when obscured.

I believe Marks has already demo'd this as well. Everything Eyetoy sees has to be interpreted, this is no different. The infrared tech gives the Eyetoy a more reliable sense of depth perception allowing it to be able to record the fact that your arms are going further back than the main portion of your body, so if it can't then see your arms, that can be interpreted by software as having put the arm behind your body.

[PkunkFury]

The punching bag demo Mark showed at Siggraph last year demonstrated the avatar mapping. It was very cool. From what I recall he was still wearing large colored markers so the eyetoy could interpret his limbs easier. The movement of the colored markers was mapped to the limbs of an on screen skeleton. He then approached a punching bag on the screen and proceeded to hit it in every which direction. He even managed to duck under it, and the computer figured out his depth and determined the punching bag should get caught behind the avatar. Very sweet. I'd love to see what else they've come up with using this tech

And Antigrav is indeed awesome. If you own an Eyetoy, you should own Antigrav, as it is ultimately (and unfortunately) the only worthwhile game for the machine. I luv Harmonix for their support of all these kick ass peripherals.

I think Eyetoy will be a tough sell on PS3. It had a great start when it came out, mainly because of the wow factor and the great job Sony did getting demos into stores. But I doubt most of the people who bought it continued playing for more than a month. Also I'd be surprised if any but the hardest of hardcore own more than one or two Eyetoy games (It's particularly hard finding certain games without the Eyetoy packaged in, I own two Eyetoys for this reason...) In order to convince people to buy a new Eyetoy for the PS3, I think someone at Sony will have to come up with a kick ass game that goes beyond the Play/Play2 type of formula, something that shows people this time is the real deal, etc. I'd hate to see Eyetoy disappear

[kaching]

Sony was pretty boneheaded in not offering a few of the Eyetoy games more flexibly in two SKUs, one with the camera and one without. They need to abandon the 1 SKU w/camera policy and I think the other key to successfully re-invigorating interest on the PS3 is to pursue a strategy like Rhindle suggested - focus more on making use of Eyetoy supplementally rather than as the sole means of game control.

Sony's GDC presentation suggested they're going to be supporting video chat as part of their online services for PS3, so that will increase the perception of value in picking up an Eyetoy camera.

I also hope that there's an outside chance that some of the PS3 system resources being kept aside for OS purposes may be in use to standardize some basic Eyetoy algorithms which might further increase the incentive for developers to incorporate Eyetoy features in their games (beyond just video chat and still captures).

[Dragmire]

No shit!? If you've been paying any attention to this guy's motivation for developing the Eye Toy you'd know it's to get gamers off their lazy asses. Ignoring that, Antigrav is a great fucking game! If they can improve upon the image detection of the Eyetoy 2, then I want an Antigrav sequel, no questions asked. It's one of the best non-THPS "skating" games this side of Top Skater.

Wow, you took that so seriously.

[M3wThr33]

But when it comes time to purchase a multi-platform game, like KR-Party, you choose the PS2 one for the EyeToy Kameo support which puts your 3D head into the game.

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

I also hope that there's an outside chance that some of the PS3 system resources being kept aside for OS purposes may be in use to standardize some basic Eyetoy algorithms which might further increase the incentive for developers to incorporate Eyetoy features in their games (beyond just video chat and still captures).

I think Cell in general is going to be a big boost for developers leveraging EyeToy next-gen (especially if this infra-red tech comes to fruition). Advanced image recognition and processing is right in Cell's wheelhouse. Where PS2 devs had a limited load they could dedicate to both game and eye toy functionality, Cell could open up a lot more doors. Detailed facial recogonition in particular may be one of the big advancements. Instead of "simple" videochat, perhaps we'll see a future MMOG where your character's facial animation (or possibly even lip-synch) takes its cues right from your very own facial expressions. Might be kinda creepy actually, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if something like that isnt in R&D.

[gofreak]

The problem with all these systems, no matter how sophisticated, is that movement still basically boils down to moving your arms and upper body around, while being forced to remain stationary. There just aren't a lot of gameplay scenarios that involved standing around stationary. IMO Eyetoy-type devices (and Revmote for that matter) should function as a supplement for gamepads, not as a substitute.

I think that's the idea. You can also sub in for some motion using physical models. You could drive motion using a regular analog stick, or whatever, and your other tracked motion could be linked to that of the legs of your character with a physical model.

But anyway, regarding infrared, AFAIK it's still some way off from being a consumer-level product. PS4, maybe.

And yeah, it'll be interesting to see facial detection possibly happen, real-time facial mapping. Something like Toshiba's magic mirror showed what could be possible, perhaps.

[Wax Free Vanilla]

This sounds like it would make your arms tired.

100% correct.

Playing Sega's Nights with the Eye-toy camera is brutal. That thing makes my muscles start to burn in my arms and shoulders after 20 minutes of play.

[TTP]

I think that's the idea. You can also sub in for some motion using physical models. You could drive motion using a regular analog stick, or whatever, and your other tracked motion could be linked to that of the legs of your character with a physical model.

I'd kill for an FPS that allows you to move/shoot as usual but lean by physically doing that. Crosshair position should remain unaffected by physical leaning tho cos minor body movements can fuck up the aim.

Just imagine how cool it can be if you could do a Matrix-like slow motion bullets dodge while still firing.

[mrklaw]

Finally my wife will really be able to steer cars by tilting the joypad. And my mong-like leaning to see round corners in FPSes may finally pay off!

[gofreak]

I'd kill for an FPS that allows you to move/shoot as usual but lean by physically doing that. Crosshair position should remain unaffected by physical leaning tho cos minor body movements can fuck up the aim. Just imagine how cool it can be if you could do a Matrix-like slow motion bullets dodge while still firing.

I think they showed a demo similar to this already. Peering and leaning around corners in environments using the eyetoy. So that much is doable with the current camera, I think. I didn't play Antigrav but I think leaning and such was part of that also?

For PS3 I think it's a matter of higher resolution 2D eyetoy + lots of processing power = ???. Unfortunately infrared will probably have to wait.

[TTP]

Unfortunately infrared will probably have to wait.

Why? Is it that expensive hardware-wise?

[gofreak]

Why? Is it that expensive hardware-wise?

I had thought so, since last time I looked up such cameras, I could only find really high-end cameras for security and other industries. It's hard to track down more consumer-level IR cameras. I also don't know how precise such a camera would need to be, or how advanced it'd have to be. Maybe they could come up with something during PS3's lifecycle. The target cost for the original eyetoy was $20, so that's probably the kind of budget they have to work with.

I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope of seeing it soon, though. They showed the IP camera last year and an eyetoy demo, even, but there was no mention of IR.

edit - actually, I just found this:



http://www.gadgetreview.com/2006/01/...-infrared.html

$48, 1.3Megapixels, 30fps, with "infra-red mode". I don't know if that kind of thing would be sufficient?

But I'm slightly more optimistic now..

[TTP]

Fingers crossed then ;)

[gofreak]

Indeed. I'm just slightly puzzled as to why there aren't more of them on the market. Maybe it's simply because they're not very useful for the typical things webcams are used for on PCs (asides from paris-hilton-style antics between the sheets maybe :p). I also hope the kind of tech in that camera is sophisticated enough for what Marks has in mind. If it is, maybe a 3D eyetoy will be doable on PS3

If a 3D eyetoy was possible from the get-go, also, it'd be an even stronger argument for making it standard with PS3 IMO.

[[Nintex]]

looks pretty cool.
Poor MS they dont have anything like this or a revmote do they?

[Agent X]

Poor MS they dont have anything like this or a revmote do they?

Microsoft is working on bringing out a camera peripheral similar to EyeToy. See this article for more information:

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/697/697661p1.html

From the given specs, it seems comparable to the currently available EyeToy (but with higher resolution), rather than the next-generation Eyetoy with its infrared depth-sensing capabilities.

[Russ]

There is an IR camera thats been used with PC games for years now. Anyone have experience with it?

[MrSardonic]

but if you look like this:



you're 3D body is going to fill the entire screen, games will blow. Not to mention your arms and legs will get tired

[Luckett_X]

Imagine having a finger-gun battle with people over the net, like that scene in Spaced. That would be....the definition of awesome.

That Nintendo ON spoof also had a part where a camera 'digitised' your game room into games as an edited location.

This next-gen eye-toy is the kind of thing that needs to be packed in with PS3 to really take off crazy style.

[notjackbauer]

Good call MrSardonic- no fatties want to play games this way. Maybe the camera can be smart enough to just digitize your frame and put it in the body of a jacked guy.

[GreggTheGrimReaper]

wasn't this already revealed at last years E3?!

[gofreak]

wasn't this already revealed at last years E3?!

Last year they used a standard eyetoy for the demo. They also talked about a HD IP camera. But not infrared. I wouldn't hold my breath for any change to that in the short term, but one can dream for the future.

[GreggTheGrimReaper]

i thought when they moved the glasses of water in the LOD-demo that the technology already worked like a 3d-camera with some kind of z-axxis-scanning