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Mario 64 and FF7; two revolutionary games, which shaped/impacted the industry more?

S

Some Nobody

Junior Member
Cipherr said:
You are insane. FF7's push towards story telling and the 'cinematic' nonsense (Im not the biggest fan) can clearly be seen in an evolved form in todays gaming. In stuff like TLOU, Uncharted, and countless other franchises, where the evolution of Mario 64 can be seen also. Large explorable 3D areas, analog control for the primary character and more.

These two games influenced far more than just JRPGs and Platformers. They influenced many genres and game types in many different ways. Its nigh impossible to say which had more impact because of that.
Click to expand...

Here's your right answer. You could SAY that eventually someone would have done both, but these are the games that DID do those things.

However, I quite like cinematic storytelling and FF7 is the reason I even started gaming in the first place.
 
Z

Zolbrod

Member
I personally enjoyed FF7 a hell of a lot more than Mario 64, but there's no denying that Mario 64 was HUGELY influential and shaped 3D platform games and how the player moves within 3D spaces.

FF7 did nothing more than bring mass popularity to the JRPG genre. It did not do anything new gameplay wise and it hasn't even hugely impacted the JRPG genre in any long-lasting way either. It may have caused a temporary rise in CG cut scenes and/or pre-rendered backgrounds (and emo protagonists), but it did nothing in terms of systems, controls, and gameplay that hadn't been done before.
 
R

Rad-

Member
FF7. Other platformers/games were already aiming into Mario 64 direction and it would have happened sooner or later. However I doubt console RPGs would have ever become as popular as they were if not for FF7.
 
G

GiantEnemyCrab

Banned
It's tempting to say FF7 was more influential, given the state of the industry today. But I think it's inevitable in any medium (be it games, film, music, or even literature) that big-budget titles will target the lowest common denominator. FF7 was like a summer blockbuster movie: a thoroughly enjoyable, yet ultimately meaningless, experience. I think the industry would be largely the same today had it never existed.

On the other hand, I see a bit of Mario 64 in every game in which we move freely in 3D space. The 2D-to-3D leap was inevitable, as well, but Mario 64 paved the way for everyone else by nailing it so perfectly.
 
H

Hero

Member
Mario 64 is essentially mandatory game design 101. I am pretty sure many well respected developers from all over the world have said so over the years/.

All FF7 did was take an established genre and slap a fresh coat of paint on it.
 
G

GregLombardi

Member
Rad- said:
FF7. Other platformers/games were already aiming into Mario 64 direction and it would have happened sooner or later. However I doubt console RPGs would have ever become as popular as they were if not for FF7.
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No. Mario 64 and how it presented itself was only going to happen in one place, and one place only: Nintendo.
 
B

bounchfx

Member
gotta say Mario 64.

FF7 is fantastic, but outside of the graphics the formula as far as FF goes is pretty similar and even then the game is not as good as 6. All the other improvements were things that probably would have happened regardless (aka better quality audio, etc)
 
MrMephistoX

MrMephistoX

Member
Socivol said:
FFVII it completely changed how video game stories were told.
Click to expand...

Yep: Mario 64 is the better playing game but FFVII's cinematic influence can't be overstated. Even graphically superior PC games in 1997 weren't doing what Square attempted for the most part.
 
Shpeshal Nick

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Final Fantasy 7 changed the way videogames are falsely advertised forever, To this day, fake CG, CG and other "real time" demos are still being used to advertise final products.

Mario 64 had a better more meaningful impact.
 
KaoteK

KaoteK

Member
Mario 64, it's not even close to being a contest, though I'm one of the few that thought ff7 was an over-rated, grindy bore fest, so I suppose that will invalidate my opinion in the eyes of many.

I just remember getting the N64 on launch day with Mario and Pilot wings, and being absolutely blown away by the world Nintendo had created with Mario 64.The controls were perfect, it was the first game I had played that could be considered open world(to an extent), and the graphics were stunning for the time.

I remember a friend of mine thoroughly hyping the shit out of FF7, so picked it up, played until the end and thought, well, meh to be honest, and I say this as someone who likes jrpgs.

If there was one PlayStation game that had the same wow factor as Mario 64, and is perhaps a more appropriate comparison given it was a launch title (in the UK at least) I'd choose WipEout. The game, the music, was perfectly aimed at the adult clubbing generation, Sony even had booths at raves to market the game.It was the game for me, that said "consoles aren't just for kids anymore" and made gaming cool and relevant.

All in my humble opinion of course.


Edit:I guess I've gone wildly of topic here, as I didn't really talk about Mario 64's effect on the industry compared to ff7's. Basically, Mario gave us the template for how a 3rd person 3d game should work, which is still seen to this day. FF7? I can't really think of anything except killing of one of the main characters for emotional impact (man that pissed me off after hours of grinding to level her up!)
 
MisterHero

MisterHero

Super Member
The best games don't ever consider FMV anymore. Hell the best games from their time didn't need FMV. The best cinematic games from the era are clearly Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask.
thanks to Mario 64
 
Z

ZeroX03

Banned
It's Mario 64. It helped to define 3D movement and cameras, even if they're greatly evolved today. Final Fantasy VII helped to refine cinematic presentation and storytelling but these weren't shockingly new or even specific to that game or genre.
 
M

MisterGrey3000

Member
IAmRandom31 said:
Mario 64 was the exact same thing from the 2D Mario's too. When you think about actual gameplay you were still jumping on people, platforming and jumping on bosses heads the whole game. Nothing revolutionary at all.

The only revolution was getting the 3D camera right
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Well actually, not really...
Mario 64 kind of went out of it's way to be completely different from it's ancestors; so much so that some people have even pointed out that it doesn't feel like a Mario game or a "pure" platformer.
Running around enemies was a much more common dynamic than punching or jumping on them (Hell, you killed the giant eyeballs by running around them), non-linear exploration was a huge part of the experience, the conveyance was much more vague than what had come before it (The player picked a star and then they were pretty much on their own from that point on), there were three kinds of situational power-ups that were rarely used, most of the levels were large and circular with very few kill fields or bottomless pits, a lot of the challenge didn't come from platforming (Well, not until you got to very end of it at least), there was a bite-sized mission/objective structure, and the entire premise of many of the game's missions didn't involve the complex energetic interplay between Mario's platforming abilities and intricate linear level designs.

Miyamoto and co. really did just try to focus on making a game where an acrobatic cartoon character feels good to control in a 3 dimensional space rather than making Mario 4 in 3D.

Edit: If you put a keen eye to many of the post-1996 home console experiences that were released (specifically the "character action games" of the 5th and 6th gen) you'll see that a lot of them really were heavily influence by the likes of Mario 64 from a structure standpoint, a level design standpoint, and a mechanical standpoint. The game really was a revolution in a lot of ways.
 
Nameless

Nameless

Member
FFVII laid the foundation for the modern AAA game -- its script, budget, soundtrack, and marketing muscle all rivaling a major Hollywood release. It led to a culture wide reexamination of video games as not just pointless children's toys, but a medium capable of crafting rich stories with evolving characters and deep, cinematic narratives and experiences.

Beyond that, everything is different if FFVII is a Saturn exclusive, or if Squaresoft keeps FF on Nintendo platforms. Once they threw their weight behind PlayStation with FFVII(and after its smashing success) the other major Japanese developers followed suit and the rest is history. It's not hyperbole to say the entire gaming landscape is different if FFVII doesn't exist as is.

Nevermind it singlehandedly made the US more palatable for an entire genre of games. Countless titles never see the Western light of day without FFVII paving the JRPG's way to the mainstream.
 
T

The Adder

Banned
Gsnap said:
Considering what games today sell the most and get the best reviews, and the types of games that developers are mostly making?

FF7

(At the time of release the case could be made for Mario 64, and the impact it had, but considering where the industry went after that, it's FF7)

But the actual answer is GTA3
Click to expand...

What developer is making games like FFVII?
 
dragonfart28

dragonfart28

Banned
I'm not sure what planet we are living on where anyone can honestly believe the answer to this question isn't patently obvious.

Mario 64 began analog movement and third person camera control in a 3D space.

Almost every third person '3D' game uses this mechanic or something similar today, whether it's a low budget game or something like Uncharted or Gears of War.

This isn't even a contest.
 
G

Gsnap

Member
The Adder said:
What developer is making games like FFVII?
Click to expand...

It's about design philosophies, not making games that are exactly like FF7. (Nobody's making games like Mario 64 either, but that's not the point).

The things that were prioritized in FF7 (story, presentation, visuals, etc.) are still prioritized by games today. The same cannot be said of Mario 64.

Its style of game and its design is not prioritized. It did not shape the industry into what it is today.

Now, maybe neither did FF7. Maybe it was GTA3. Maybe it was Metal Gear Solid. But given the choice between the two in the OP? FF7 is the answer.
 
Megatron

Megatron

Member
TakeItSlowDude said:
1.jpg


I would say that Tomb Raider 1, which was released a few months later, had more of a influence than Mario 64 on 3d games. Then there was Quake and a lot of other PC games at the time.
Click to expand...

Right. Which game's control scheme still exists today?
 
C

Clairvoyance

Member
Gsnap said:
It's about design philosophies, not making games that are exactly like FF7. (Nobody's making games like Mario 64 either, but that's not the point).

The things that were prioritized in FF7 (story, presentation, visuals, etc.) are still prioritized by games today. The same cannot be said of Mario 64.

Its style of game and its design is not prioritized. It did not shape the industry into what it is today.

Now, maybe neither did FF7. Maybe it was GTA3. Maybe it was Metal Gear Solid. But given the choice between the two in the OP? FF7 is the answer.
Click to expand...

Except it's not.
 
N

Nanashrew

Banned
Mario 64 and OoT for game mechanics and moving in 3D space. Z-targeting was especially huge for action games, and this mechanic still functions the same, even in the latest Assassin's Creed.

Final Fantasy 7 for its cinematics, presentation and story telling.
 
T

t26

Member
FF7 opened the door for Western publisher like Ubisoft and Acitivison to try their luck with Japanese RPGs.
 
M

MadSexual

Member
This is a fascinating discussion. You can very clearly see the divide between users who prioritize the game-playing experience versus those who prefer stories and worlds. I imagine most of the responses line up with those in the gameplay vs. narrative topic from the other day.
 
Astral Dog

Astral Dog

Member
I dont know, the people saying Mario 64 its because of the movement in 3D space, along with the camera, other Nintendo games and platformers that were influenced by the design decisions of Mario 64.

FF 7, on the other hand, is the definition of a system seller based on graphical advancements, the fmv movies, marketing, etc. i could say its the ,more important, but something to note is that the gameplay systems and visual identity are more confined to the main FF series more than ever, JRPGs arent popular anymore, they are the definition of a niche genre, most developers cant emulate FF for its big budget, and i think this is damaging to a degree.

Both are survivors of genres that can be considered lost relics, FFXV is the most important game right now, so i would give the edge to FFVII, but Mario is still popular, and even last gen on Wii it managed to sell more than 50 million copies.
 
G

Gsnap

Member
Clairvoyance said:
Except it's not.
Click to expand...

Well ok. If you can point me to which AAA games in this industry still follow the design philosophies of Mario 64, I'd love to hear about them so that I can play them instead of Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, DA: Inquisition, and other games that prioritize story and presentation over great gameplay and mechanical satisfaction.

Again, I do not feel that navigating 3D space with an analogue stick is as much of a determining factor in the question of "What shaped/impacted the industry more" as is the core focus of the games in question.

The core focus of FF7 has lasted and thrived in today's industry far more than the core focus of Mario 64.

For the record, in case you couldn't tell, I feel Mario 64 is a far better game, and I wish today's industry was more influenced by it than it actually is.
 
A

ASIS

Member
Gsnap said:
Well ok. If you can point me to which AAA games in this industry still follow the design philosophies of Mario 64, I'd love to hear about them so that I can play them instead of Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, DA: Inquisition, and other games that prioritize story and presentation over great gameplay and mechanical satisfaction.

Again, I do not feel that navigating 3D space with an analogue stick is as much of a determining factor in the question of "What shaped/impacted the industry more" as is the core focus of the games in question.

The core focus of FF7 has lasted and thrived in today's industry far more than the core focus of Mario 64.

For the record, in case you couldn't tell, I feel Mario 64 is a far better game, and I wish today's industry was more influenced by it than it actually is.
Click to expand...
well the term sandbox originated from Super Mario 64, so there's that. And movement in 3D space is highly important, else we'd be stuck with 2D background or crash bandicoot- like controls.
 
M

Mr Swine

Banned
FF7 didn't really do something revolutionary other than having CGI cutscenes whereas Mario 64 actually shaped the 3D gameplay
 
W

WhiteRabbitEXE

Member
Mario 64, unquestionably. You can make an argument that more games may be more like FFVII than Mario 64 now-a-days, but I don't think you could argue that those games are that way because of FFVII. On the other hand, while we may not see many games that are particularly comparable to SM64, outside of FPSes virtually every 3D game out there today has a chain-of-influence leading back to SM64, particularly in terms of movement and cameras (though there's much more as well). Furthermore, many big names in the industry have cited SM64 as their own personal biggest influences. For example, Gabe Newell. So going from that example, Gabe has had a huge impact on the industry in numerous ways, meaning his impact could arguably be tied to SM64's as well.
 
M

MadSexual

Member
WhiteRabbitEXE said:
Mario 64, unquestionably. You can make an argument that more games may be more like FFVII than Mario 64 now-a-days, but I don't think you could argue that those games are that way because of FFVII. On the other hand, while we may not see many games that are particularly comparable to SM64, outside of FPSes virtually every 3D game out there today has a chain-of-influence leading back to SM64. Furthermore, many big names in the industry have cited SM64 as their own personal biggest influences. For example, Gabe Newell. So going from that example, Gabe has had a huge impact on the industry in numerous ways, meaning his impact could arguably be tied to SM64's as well.
Click to expand...

Not to mention HL2 (or HL1 for that matter) having a much bigger impact on narrative in modern shooters, themselves AAA trendsetters, than FF7.
 
N

ntropy

Member
Mario 64

"Still my favourite game of all time. I still have vivid memories of all the different levels. The control is still pretty much unrivalled. It convinced me that games were art." - Gabe Newell
 
C

Clairvoyance

Member
Gsnap said:
Well ok. If you can point me to which AAA games in this industry still follow the design philosophies of Mario 64, I'd love to hear about them so that I can play them instead of Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, DA: Inquisition, and other games that prioritize story and presentation over great gameplay and mechanical satisfaction.

Again, I do not feel that navigating 3D space with an analogue stick is as much of a determining factor in the question of "What shaped/impacted the industry more" as is the core focus of the games in question.

The core focus of FF7 has lasted and thrived in today's industry far more than the core focus of Mario 64.

For the record, in case you didn't know. Mario 64 is a far better game, and I wish today's industry was more influenced by it than it actually is.
Click to expand...

1. CoD, a game played my the majority of it's players strictly for multiplayer, is not as big as it is because of it's story. Presentation maybe, but it's played because of it's tried-and-tested gameplay. Whether or not people agree with said gameplay is a different story.

2. There are plenty of games that prioritize gameplay first. All of Nintendo's efforts obviously; but GAF darlings Platinum and From Software also make games with phenomenal gameplay. There's also a plethora of indie games, as well games like Sunset Overdrive and Destiny (it's gameplay being it's only redeeming factor).

3. The entire PS2/GC/Xbox generation isn't looked at as prioritizing story over gameplay. Why not? When the last gen systems came around, do people honestly believe developers went back to an outdated PS1 RPG for inspiration? Why look for inspiration in a series that had already declines nearly 40-50% in sales after two more iterations?
 
A

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
Ask yourself what happened more in the following generations:
"Cinematic" Games
3D platformers


... Yeah.
 
dragonfart28

dragonfart28

Banned
Gsnap said:
Well ok. If you can point me to which AAA games in this industry still follow the design philosophies of Mario 64, I'd love to hear about them so that I can play them instead of Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, DA: Inquisition, and other games that prioritize story and presentation over great gameplay and mechanical satisfaction.

Again, I do not feel that navigating 3D space with an analogue stick is as much of a determining factor in the question of "What shaped/impacted the industry more" as is the core focus of the games in question.
Click to expand...

The games you listed (except for COD because it is in first person) would be nothing but cut scenes it weren't for Mario 64.

Their very existence as games depends on manipulating a character in a three dimensional space that was templated on Mario 64.
 
G

Gsnap

Member
ASIS said:
well the term sandbox originated from Super Mario 64, so there's that. And movement in 3D space is highly important, else we'd be stuck with 2D background or crash bandicoot- like controls.
Click to expand...

It is, but I feel like movement in 3D space was an inevitability. Somebody had to do it first, sure, but it was going to happen no matter what. Whereas, the industry's obsession with big budgets, marketing, visuals, story, etc. was more up in the air. Back when FF7 and Mario 64 came out, the industry could have gone either way, depending on which was the most successful, and which stayed the most successful over time. As we can see, the core philosophy behind AAA game design today borrows far more from FF7 than it does from Mario 64.

So yeah, that's my answer. The industry as we know it today was shaped more by FF7 than Mario 64.

Clairvoyance said:
3. The entire PS2/GC/Xbox generation isn't looked at as prioritizing story over gameplay. Why not? When the last gen systems came around, do people honestly believe developers went back to an outdated PS1 RPG for inspiration? Why look for inspiration in a series that had already declines nearly 40-50% in sales after two more iterations?
Click to expand...

Lol. No. That's why in my very first post I said the better answer is GTA3.

But like I said, when only considering the two choices given in the OP, the core of FF7's design philosophy shares more in common with today's industry than Mario 64's.
 
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