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Ethically is buying a game better than emulating?

I really respect publishers and developers that release their software as freeware or open source when they can't support it anymore under modern hardware or when they at least still sell it under a decent price.

So we don't have to wonder stuff like this.
 
Maybe slightly. I prefer to buy games when I can, now that the money isn't a problem for me, but I still don't see piracy in general as being a bad thing. I do think you should want to support creators you like, but piracy is(under normal circumstances) not directly harmful. The problem comes down more to the idea of it being unfair, which may or may not be a problem for you. That's kind of why I see debates on this as being a waste of time. It's not really the kind of thing you can convince someone to dislike or be okay with if they don't already feel that way.
 
What if EA/Ubi or the like published a new IP titled "Pirate Me!", and priced this game (that received rave reviews) at thousands of dollars?
It's actually on shelves at your local stores at this absurd price...
Is morality sensitive to price?

Well, Immanuel Kant would say that they're using you as a means to an end, so it would be their duty to respect you and price it reasonably according to what the dev cost was ;)

But do EA/Ubisoft have morals in the first place? :p
 

Aeana

Member
What if EA/Ubi or the like published a new IP titled "Pirate Me!", and priced this game (that received rave reviews) at thousands of dollars?
It's actually on shelves at your local stores at this absurd price...
Is morality sensitive to price?

I think the major thing here is the lack of possibility of first sale. In your scenario, if you purchase that game, the money goes directly to the publisher, which is not the scenario that's being discussed here. We aren't talking about pirating new games. In my book, what you describe is both morally and legally wrong, whereas downloading a copy of a game that has not been sold in 25 years is not quite so clear-cut in the moral area, even if it is in the legal area.
 

beril

Member
Or you buy it for a high price from a collector and play it. Next month it is re-released and you won't buy it because you already own it. Company lost your money.

but because you bought the last copy on ebay; another guy who wanted to play it couldn't find it, and thus waited until the re-release. ok maybe not super likely in this theoretical scenario; but in general you can't fully disregard used sales because for physical goods there is still a limited supply
 
What about playing game without owning the system? Like buying Wii discs for Dolphin, even if you never owned Wii. Is that ok thing to do?
Yeah, that would be interesting to know (At least legally)
I get the benefits of emulating, but it doesn't feel right to play on a platform it's not designed to be played on
 

endtropy

Neo Member
Some people seem a bit misguided on emulation of a system. An emulator is legal so long as it does not use copyrighted code. So a complete written from scratch emulator that can run NES compatible code is legal because it's not using anything copyrighted or belonging to Nintendo. If an emulator needs a copy of the original system BIOS to run your now into legal grey territory. If your using a BIOS image ripped from a system you don't own, thats likely piracy.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Developers are paid to create a game with the expectation that future sales are what will justify the expense. When a company sells its assets, including the rights to old titles, they're setting a precedent that makes it more likely that others will take a risk by funding game development.

Undermining the industry by not purchasing a license to a game you're playing at any point is problematic both morally and legally. It all channels back into business decisions about green lighting future titles.
 

Durante

Member
Why don't you buy and then emulate? Emulation does not preclude ownership.
For the record, I don't have a major ethical/moral issue with piracy of old stuff you cannot feasibly pay for.
That's pretty much exactly what I wanted to post, on both counts.

I actually bought some Wii games which I only ever played in Dolphin.
 

Soodanim

Gold Member
What about something like Goldeneye, that's stuck in license hell?

What if EA/Ubi or the like published a new IP titled "Pirate Me!", and priced this game (that received rave reviews) at thousands of dollars?
It's actually on shelves at your local stores at this absurd price...
Is morality sensitive to price?

I find it hard to guess, because I buy everything. I'd just simply watch a Let's Play or a Twitch stream. Or wait for the 99.997% discount on Steam,
 

TI82

Banned
Such a gray area. Run into this with old 90's adventure games, stuff like Freddy Pharkas: Frontier Pharmacist or Dark Side of the Moon. Thankfully haven't run into a situation where I can't buy the game at all, I'd say buying used is the more ethical, then emulate it. Lots of people did that with Type 0.
If people continued to do that after it was announced for localization then they are 100% in the wrong
 
I don't see why not. It's like saying is it ok to buy anything from the Virtual Console is bad if you don't actually own the system.
But Wii was still current gen console at the time, when you could play some of it's exclusives on PC, and i guess Nintendo made/published exclusives to sell hardware.
 

letaint

Banned
Thanks for humoring the absurd question.
While moral gray area, if there is no physical loss and no publisher willing to take your money for it - go ahead!
 

endtropy

Neo Member
Undermining the industry by not purchasing a license to a game you're playing at any point is problematic both morally and legally. It all channels back into business decisions about green lighting future titles.

I think your missing the topic here, we are talking about situations in which one can not procure a license from the content creator or license holder anymore. If your making the argument that the second hand market supports future game development I assure you that if you throw a rock, you will hit developers and publishers who disagree at every toss.
 

Mifec

Member
Why don't you buy and then emulate? Emulation does not preclude ownership.
For the record, I don't have a major ethical/moral issue with piracy of old stuff you cannot feasibly pay for.
Pretty much the best way of looking at it.
That's pretty much exactly what I wanted to post, on both counts.

I actually bought some Wii games which I only ever played in Dolphin.

Did exactly the same thing. Same for pcsx2. Games can be made to look so good O_O
 

sensui-tomo

Member
Since this discussion is up and i dont really want to make a thread(because they all turn out so bad) What if emulating a game which you own is okay, does that in turn mean that using an emulator, such as dolphin, without owning a wii/gc(working or non working) is also bad? I've seen people argue that not owning the game = piracy but not owning the operating software = not piracy.
 
Well, I'm not interested in a discussion on legality because the legality is fairly clear, depending on where you live. When your choices are "pay this guy $1000 for something he paid $50 for" and piracy and there is nothing else, I'm not gonna look down on the person who chooses to go the free way. That's my moral standpoint. Personally, I love to own the things, but that's not everyone.

I totally agree with avoiding legality. I agree with you, but there are several scenarios where I wouldn't look down on the person who chooses to go the free way with new games either. In your example, the customer is using piracy as a tool to get what they want and circumvent what they feel is an unfair economy. Using that same tool vs. a new game doesn't strike me as remarkably different if the customer doesn't feel that the price is fair. So, I don't see a huge distinction between the person who pirates the $1000 formerly $50 game as the person who pirates a $60+20+20 game, soon to be $10.

Obviously my moral standpoint is a lot less concerned about when the publisher gets paid.
 
"pay this guy $1000 for something he paid $50 for"

I generally agree with your point, but I zoomed in on this because it's not as simple as comparing raw numbers.

I recently bought SNES Sunset Riders for $75 (including shipping) from the guy who's had it in his possession since he bought it. He bought it when it came out in 1993 for $60. Accounting for inflation, he actually paid $98-ish in 2014 dollars. So he actually lost 23 2014 dollars in the transaction.

That's the way I think about it, which may actually be the completely wrong way of thinking about it.

Your point generally still stands, though.
 

Aeana

Member
Since this discussion is up and i dont really want to make a thread(because they all turn out so bad) What if emulating a game which you own is okay, does that in turn mean that using an emulator, such as dolphin, without owning a wii/gc(working or non working) is also bad? I've seen people argue that not owning the game = piracy but not owning the operating software = not piracy.

This was briefly touched upon earlier in the thread, but it turns out that you can emulate a system without using any proprietary code at all, which makes it completely legal in most places in the world. There do exist emulators that require BIOS, and in that case, using the BIOS for a system you don't own would be considered illegal, but the majority of emulators do not.
 

Mael

Member
Buying a game isn't making emulating impossible or worthless.
I mean with disc based games you go the emulation route legitimately way more easily than with carts.
Now between buying and lifting a rom off a website I don't think I need to explain why 1 is inherently better than the other.
If you ask me, nothing beats original hardware with original controllers
 

ascii42

Member
What about playing game without owning the system? Like buying Wii discs for Dolphin, even if you never owned Wii. Is that ok thing to do?

The only problem there is that you may need a BIOS to run an emulator, which is copyrighted software.

edit: Aeana beat me
 

Jenenser

Member
i am ok with emulating old games.

Well let's put it this way. If your car gets stolen or damaged to the point where it can't be driven anymore is it ok to just go and steal one just like it or should you go buy another used one?

that analogy doesn't work...
Well let's put it this way. If your car gets stolen or damaged to the point where it can't be driven anymore is it ok to just go and build a copy of of it or should you buy another used one if you already paid for it once?

a car is not software, if you would steal one you would take it from another persons belongings...
in this example the publisher wont have any gain nor loss from a used copy...
and the the "reseller can use the funds to finance other publishers/developers" is just as bad, you can still use the funds yourself for another game... these are no arguments :/

in the end its a question of your own moral and i won't be defending piracy... but plz try to make some working analogies...
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Sometimes there's no other option other than emulation/piracy. Surely there'd be some kind of moral statute of limitations on older gens?

My OUYA emulates all the NES/SNES/Master System and Megadrive games that I own, but I've got a few ROMS of games I don't own because I couldn't source them even on ebay.

Lets be honest, I doubt the devs of obscure 20 year old Megadrive games are going to be upset I've downloaded a ROM of their game which cant even be bought anymore.

I buy on VC and XBLA/PSN too.
 
I like Tim Schafer's advice from before Psychonauts was re-released when he told people to pirate the game then buy one of their t-shirts on their website.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
I think your missing the topic here, we are talking about situations in which one can not procure a license from the content creator or license holder anymore. If your making the argument that the second hand market supports future game development I assure you that if you throw a rock, you will hit developers and publishers who disagree at every toss.

It's a fair point, though it has slippery slope qualities I still see as troubling. As others have pointed out, there's always the possibility that something that can't be purchased today will be planned for release in the future. Playing it without a license in the meantime undermines that potential value.

Then there's Xenoblade with its asinine US distribution deal that guaranteed that most sales would be of used titles. That guaranteed revenue stream is what prompted GameStop to pony up for the distribution deal in the first place, which the developer / publisher evidently deemed sufficient to pay for the rights. It's a mess, but there you go.
 
I have a "emulate what I own" policy. There's just no fucking way I'm unearthing my battery-acid charred gameboy color 3,000 miles away just to dick around in Megaman Extreme 2 for 5 minutes.
 

Dsyndrome

Member
If people continued to do that after it was announced for localization then they are 100% in the wrong

Is it still wrong when they buy a legit copy first sale from overseas when they wanted to play a digital copy, or if they wanted to play on a handheld? The controversy over the translation team aside, I mean.
 
Another wrinkle to this conversation:

What if you DID actually buy a game, but you can no longer access it because it was a digital game and is now "delisted?" Is it OK to emulate in that case?

This happened to me with 4 games: DKC 1-3 for the SNES, and TMNT 1 for the NES, all of which I bought for the original Wii's Virtual Console, and all of which have since been delisted and lost forever through that service.

I personally like owning things, so I went and bought a Super Nintendo for cheap and all three DKC original cartridges. TMNT I gave up on, since I don't even own an NES, and moved on with my life.
 
There is only a market for re-releases if people do not start pirating it before hand. Your piracy might prevent someone willing to wait and pay the opportunity to play.

And there is one widespread misunderstanding that has been represented several times in this thread. Just because you want to play a game, it doesn't mean you are entitled to play the game. Self-entitlement, in this case, not only harms the market for re-releases, but it also diverts your game playing away from games currently available. So it actually harms the current market, too.

Too many people think that their desire to have something automatically translates to their right to do so within whatever means they are willing. Since buying a rare game is hard an expensive, they decide they are entitled to it anyway.
 

Ranger X

Member
Note: this is assuming the title hasn't been re-released like Banjo Kazooie, PSN classics, and the Virtual Console.

Im talking about titles that will likely never be re-released. Games like Lost Vikings, Battletoads, Dragon Quest Monsters, etc.

I think they are basically the same thing. The actual creators aren't being reimbursed, you are only paying a scalper/collector/other person. Even the hardware you need to buy won't be reimbursing the creators.

Edit: title was meant to say buying a used game

If the game is available to buy in any form, in my opinion his is a "pass". This means while you desire playing that, the content owner doesn't want to receive money from it -- Fair use.

If the game is available somewhere to buy, the owner makes it available to buy. -- Piracy.

I also agree with this guy:

And there is one widespread misunderstanding that has been represented several times in this thread. Just because you want to play a game, it doesn't mean you are entitled to play the game. Self-entitlement, in this case, not only harms the market for re-releases, but it also diverts your game playing away from games currently available. So it actually harms the current market, too.
Too many people think that their desire to have something automatically translates to their right to do so within whatever means they are willing. Since buying a rare game is hard an expensive, they decide they are entitled to it anyway.


This is simple truth people don't understand. At the end of the day its a complex matter. A person is not entitled to possess all they want, like with anything in like that isn't an agree human right. However, a content owner should make its content available to prevent piracy.
 

Aeana

Member
There is only a market for re-releases if people do not start pirating it before hand. Your piracy might prevent someone willing to wait and pay the opportunity to play.

And there is one widespread misunderstanding that has been represented several times in this thread. Just because you want to play a game, it doesn't mean you are entitled to play the game. Self-entitlement, in this case, not only harms the market for re-releases, but it also diverts your game playing away from games currently available. So it actually harms the current market, too.

Too many people think that their desire to have something automatically translates to their right to do so within whatever means they are willing. Since buying a rare game is hard an expensive, they decide they are entitled to it anyway.

I think GOG has disproven this quite handily, actually. Beloved games that have been impossible to buy for many years show up on GOG and they sell. This is a regular occurrence.
 

tokkun

Member
Since this discussion is up and i dont really want to make a thread(because they all turn out so bad) What if emulating a game which you own is okay, does that in turn mean that using an emulator, such as dolphin, without owning a wii/gc(working or non working) is also bad? I've seen people argue that not owning the game = piracy but not owning the operating software = not piracy.

This was an interesting question with Dolphin, because it could emulate Wii games while the Wii was still a current-gen system. I, for instance, bought and played through Muramasa and Xenoblade prior to owning a Wii. Older posters will probably remember Bleem! as well.
 
Another wrinkle to this conversation:

What if you DID actually buy a game, but you can no longer access it because it was a digital game and is now "delisted?" Is it OK to emulate in that case?

This happened to me with 4 games: DKC 1-3 for the SNES, and TMNT 1 for the NES, all of which I bought for the original Wii's Virtual Console, and all of which have since been delisted and lost forever through that service.

I personally like owning things, so I went and bought a Super Nintendo for cheap and all three DKC original cartridges. TMNT I gave up on, since I don't even own an NES, and moved on with my life.
If you still own that Wii you can just redownload them.
 

RM8

Member
I'm very picky with this, and to the delight of video game businessmen, it annoys me not having ownership of my games :/ So yeah, emulation is not really my thing.
 

Steel

Banned
What about playing game without owning the system? Like buying Wii discs for Dolphin, even if you never owned Wii. Is that ok thing to do?

There are those retroarch consoles that play multiple different old console carts in one system, and that's OK. So yeah, that's perfectly fine.

As for the overall issue, I tend to emulate stuff I've paid for in the past, though if it's over 10 years old and not a downloadable game elsewhere you're not really supporting the original developer by going used either.
 

L Thammy

Member
This is where your problem is. No game is likely NEVER re-released. So say you pirate the Battletoads ROM and emulate it, play the crap out of it. Next month it gets a surprise release on the Nintendo Virtual Console or some Classic Rare Collection or something. You aren't going to buy that, because you just played the crap outta the game already, you are no longer in a Battletoads mood. So the company lost out on your money because you pirated the game.

I think this is pretty idealistic. What about something like Tatsunoko Vs Capcom, where there are tricky legal hurdles in place even if the company doesn't want to re-release it? What about old Enix games, where some of the rights holders may have gone out of business entirely? And that's assuming that every rights holder cares about and is capable of re-releasing their old titles.
 

ascii42

Member
i am ok with emulating old games.



that analogy doesn't work...
Well let's put it this way. If your car gets stolen or damaged to the point where it can't be driven anymore is it ok to just go and build a copy of of it or should you buy another used one if you already paid for it once?

a car is not software, if you would steal one you would take it from another persons belongings...
in this example the publisher wont have any gain nor loss from a used copy...
and the the "reseller can use the funds to finance other publishers/developers" is just as bad, you can still use the funds yourself for another game... these are no arguments :/

in the end its a question of your own moral and i won't be defending piracy... but plz try to make some working analogies...
Regardless of whether or not the reseller would use the funds to buy another game, you are devaluing their copy of the game (and anyone else looking to sell the game, too), so there are technically victims in the crime. How much you care about them is up to you.
 

Gotchaye

Member
Developers are paid to create a game with the expectation that future sales are what will justify the expense. When a company sells its assets, including the rights to old titles, they're setting a precedent that makes it more likely that others will take a risk by funding game development.

Undermining the industry by not purchasing a license to a game you're playing at any point is problematic both morally and legally. It all channels back into business decisions about green lighting future titles.

There are two pretty questionable assumptions here.

First, is it actually the case that expectations of future sales for a rerelease 15 years down the road are an at-all significant input to any publisher's or developer's decision to make or not make a game? Like, you can obviously tell this economic just-so story where it ought to matter to perfectly rational actors, but does it actually matter to the actors we've got? I figure uncertainty as to the state of the industry 15 years in the future is going to swamp considerations like these for real people.

Second, you assume that the people who own a game have a moral right to profit from it in perpetuity. But the whole point of stuff like patent and copyright law is that it's not generally true that you've got a right to profit from your intellectual property in perpetuity. It's pretty easy to argue that the absurdly long terms we grant copyright holders now are way out of whack. Maybe the people who make games only ought to profit from them for, say, 5 years. That not paying for the game is less good for the developer and the industry than is paying for the game doesn't mean there's a moral obligation to pay for the game.
 
Also, one more interesting question: what if you buy game off PSN, like japanese one(Policenauts), and then download it illegaly on PC, since you can't patch something from JP PSN with english translation.
 

Nibiru

Banned
I think most people emulate older stuff and I don't see a problem with it. Most is pretty tough to get for a lot of people and some of it can be hard to even play. I have seen avgn have to buy several older consoles and even then none of them work. Also the price of some of the rarer titles is just out of reach for most people.
 

Steel

Banned
Also, one more interesting question: what if you buy game off PSN, like japanese one(Policenauts), and then download it illegaly on PC, since you can't patch something from JP PSN with english translation.

Technically illegal but perfectly moral. I generally play games I've already purchased in the past on emulators, though not all my discs work.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
... and as a follow up to my last post: I agree completely about the problems of used game sales from a developer's perspective. I never buy used for that reason and hope digital distribution completely disintermediates the gaming market. The retail experience is a complete leech of revenue that developers could put to much better use.
 
My line of thinking is: if I can purchase it new I will, if I can't I emulate.

Buying used or emulating both give the same benefit to IP holders which is to say: none at all.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Developers are paid to create a game with the expectation that future sales are what will justify the expense. When a company sells its assets, including the rights to old titles, they're setting a precedent that makes it more likely that others will take a risk by funding game development.

Undermining the industry by not purchasing a license to a game you're playing at any point is problematic both morally and legally. It all channels back into business decisions about green lighting future titles.

Your logic is sound but you don't specify a magnitude. For every one million pirated copies of Panzer Dragoon Saga, how many Condemned 3s are we not getting because of the risk calculation? What's the regression coefficient?

Because it seems to me like the proposed harm is a rounding error. I mean, coups in African nations could disrupt supplies of minerals used in hardware production, so they're a factor in the greenlight regression model, right? If we can't get our Cobalt Trioxide Dilithium or whatever, hardware supplies dry up. And if China tests an EMP bomb, online-only games won't be playable, right? Or, like, Propeller Arena got cancelled because 9/11 happened. Do you think the greenlight process had a penalty built in "well, there's an xyz% chance that a world-changing event will occur resulting in us not being able to make the game"? What do you think XYZ% was? But is it worth discussing those factors? Probably not. In statistics, they're in the μ, right, not the explanatory variables of the model?

Hell, here's a good way to have this conversation. You're Warner Bros. Monolith pitches you on a game called Lord of the Rings Chess, exclusive to Ouya. Write me a fake greenlight report that touches on the kind of concerns you think publishers have. How did competition sell? What's the hardware install base? What kind of Metacritic can we expect? What's our ad spend? Where in the report do you think they quantify the impact of piracy of this game in 2035? Note I'm not talking about how they incorporate in piracy to the sales projections, I'm wondering what section of the report discusses the abstract value of the assets decades from now.

I can buy that piracy impacts greenlighting decisions in a somewhat material way. I think if you expect to sell 1.5 million copies and sell 1.0 million copies because of piracy, that's scary, and is part of your calculations. But in your story, you sell the 1.5 million copies and then 15 years later when everyone who worked on the game from the publishing side is dead, retired, or fired, and we're playing games on Holo-Sexbook while in cryo-sleep on the way to Mars Colony 3... the resale value of the asset is devalued in an abstract way because people out there are copying shit your company has long since forgotten about? I'm not buying that for a second.

Especially since we're in a counterfactual world anyway. OP is willing to buy the game and will if it's resold. It's true that every pirate says they "would" buy the game and most of them are lying. But in this counterfactual world, the OP is being honest, so I'm not even sure you can make the argument there's some abstract lost-sale mechanism at all.

Finally, it's 2015. Anything made now (except licensed goods, but those are also exempt from your argument about resale value of the asset) can be sold digitally forever with no risk or maintenance cost to the publisher. So if the items do still have some value, why wouldn't they continue to be sold forever? So then... if this kind of "abandonware" (not a legal term) piracy is factoring into greenlight decisions... wouldn't it no longer be factoring in, and thus any game impacted by it has already been greenlit or not?
 

Lkr

Member
in my opinion, abandonware seems to be like the software public domain. i have never seen any developer complain about someone emulating a game that has been out of print for 20 years
 

m@cross

Member
Only if the game literally cannot be purchased.

Pretty much this. You need to consider that even though the secondary market may not put money in the hands of the game makers, it still factors into other things that affect them.

e.g. Take Suikoden and the sequels. Off the market for a long time and legit copies are pretty much all second hand. The game is so popular that used copies sell at high prices and it is well documented that the game is sought after due to this fact. While it doesn't benefit the creators of the game directly, it tells Konami that the game has a fan base and popularity. This then leads to possible sequels as well as appreciation for the creators so that they can get more work.

Next the game is so popular of the secondary market, Sony gets them to put it in the store digitally for sale. One of the original developers of the game asks that fans buy it so the game company takes note and maybe makes a sequel.

For every person who didn't use the secondary market to keep some hype on the game, they damaged its chances of getting noticed. For each person who pirated it through emulation, some of those removed themselves from possibly wanting to buy it digitally when it got re-released and damaged its chances for a sequel.

Bottom line is emulation is usually piracy, and piracy damages the industry that we'd all be better off supporting as it makes the things we love.
 
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