shinobi602
Member
This has gotten way out of hand lol.
Well the ballparking of schedule has always been a black art to me, and for the longest time I was trying to understand how it works, or ask my peers/managers to get a good sense of how they arrived at such numbers. Sadly, it's either "winging it" or "by previous attempts", both are problematic because it may not be enough to account for development of new ideas and new technology, nor does it account for technical/mechanical hurdles.With now over 5 years in the industry, in my experience, it's setting release dates before you actually know when it will be done and not willing to budge on quality/quantity.
For a while I did too, it was the rite of passage story that you tell everyone, it's the story that makes you "in" it. Now I just look back and laugh at all the shit I missed out on.Crytek said:
Games industry is so weird. They wear crunch time as a badge of honor. The only thing crazy crunch time stories tell me is that their management sucks.
So I think I get the gist of it now. Correct me if I'm wrong GAF.
It's the "gloating" about it that people don't like. Would I be correct in assuming that you will happily purchase and play a game that was built under the same conditions, so long as you don't hear about the crunch.
In which case it's analogous to the electronics we all continue to buy provided we are ignorant of how they are made.
Fair summary?
So I think I get the gist of it now. Correct me if I'm wrong GAF.
It's the "gloating" about it that people don't like. Would I be correct in assuming that you will happily purchase and play a game that was built under the same conditions, so long as you don't hear about the crunch.
In which case it's analogous to the electronics we all continue to buy provided we are ignorant of how they are made.
Fair summary?
Yup, crunch is normal but a brutal process, gloating about it got people mad.
Yup, crunch is normal but a brutal process, gloating about it got people mad.
It's a reality of the industry that isn't going away. The tweet wasn't a good idea but condemning the studio for it is over the top. Those meals are some of the only breaks these teams get. The teams know they have to crunch and look forward to stuff like this. Bragging about it is dumb but a team that didn't have catered dinners during crunch would be absolutely beaten down.
You have to remember that this is an industry where everyone wants in, where people are willing to work well below the average for their actual job skill level (especially for programmers), just to make games. It's a type of indoctrination that happens because if you don't do it, the company knows that you're just as replaceable as the next kid that thinks they're a hot shit and can do what you're doing for less and won't complain about the hours.One must be deeply stupid to think that crunchtime is something you should be proud of, or to think that it is something that shows you´re a good worker for your company.
But hey, thank god they gave them dinner. huehuehuehuehuehue.
Games industry is so weird. They wear crunch time as a badge of honor. The only thing crazy crunch time stories tell me is that their management sucks.
You have to remember that this is an industry where everyone wants in, where people are willing to work well below the average for their actual job skill level (especially for programmers), just to make games. It's a type of indoctrination that happens because if you don't do it, the company knows that you're just as replaceable as the next kid that thinks they're a hot shit and can do what you're doing for less and won't complain about the hours.
hahaha awesomeEven better one:
Rice > potatoes?I dun get it, why is it better?
You have to remember that this is an industry where everyone wants in, where people are willing to work well below the average for their actual job skill level (especially for programmers), just to make games. It's a type of indoctrination that happens because if you don't do it, the company knows that you're just as replaceable as the next kid that thinks they're a hot shit and can do what you're doing for less and won't complain about the hours.
I'm not saying I'm justifying it, I'm pointing out how it's happening. Been there, done that, seen a fair share of peers get burned out, thought about getting out when the worst of it was happening to me (see my much earlier post about my own crunch experiences: yes, I even brought a sleeping bag in), listened to management thinking it'd get better next project (hint: didn't, downsized because project wasn't successful, so no next project), hung around banging on doors to see if I can still be in the industry, but deep down inside, I really wasn't sure if I was up for more of the insane hours and crunch.If you believe that the industry is not only doing good for their workers but also for their future with this shit happening, you really are short-sighted. This burns people at work, burns people at home and for sure this ends not only in crunchtime, not paid hours and shitty diet. It also tends to low morale, low attachment to the place of work and of course bad results.
Anybody who thinks that this shit is something to make fun of or not to consider it almost like abuse, is just crazy.
I see that @Paz already explained it to you, and showed how this usually ends with Team Bondy. Another example could be simply that article of the wifes from workers in Rockstar.
I'm not saying I'm justifying it, I'm pointing out how it's happening. Been there, done that, seen a fair share of peers get burned out, thought about getting out when the worst of it was happening to me (see my much earlier post about my own crunch experiences: yes, I even brought a sleeping bag in), listened to management thinking it'd get better next project (hint: didn't, downsized because project wasn't successful, so no next project), hung around banging on doors to see if I can still be in the industry, but deep down inside, I really wasn't sure if I was up for more of the insane hours and crunch.
Google works have crunch too. That is why the offices have a lot of cool things like was your home...
Everybody crunches in tech. Most crunches last only a week or so but the game industry is different due to importance in making dates. I'd never take an engineering job in gaming if I'm expected to crunch all the time, plus work 12 hour days at non-crunch for less pay than being an engineer at a tech company like Google or Amazon.
I dun get it, why is it better?
Crytek is German, there is no way they aren't getting compensated for their hard work.
Working for a German company I understand German employment law is hardcore.
To be fair, there is an argument that it's a mark of passion the coders have for their product, and there's certainly some truth to that.
That argument would onlywork if crunch time wasn't an "institution." If you're expected (or required) by the management to work past normal hours it's not a sign of passion.
True, but if the development team is not burnt out, is emotionally invested in the project, and doesn't feel taken advantage of, then it can be a point of pride even for the developers. And I say that speaking from experience.
No doubt there have been plenty of bad instances of this in the games industry, especially with EA, but I don't think you can assume just from the tweet that that's the case here. Would be good to hear from someone actually on the development team before making assumptions.
Well it mostly depends on how long the crunch lasts. We have them in the animation industry as well, but they are pretty rare, and usually last a week, or we have to come in and work on a week-end (and we get a bonus). In these cases, the investment of the team is a reality.
But crunching regularly for long periods of time = stupid. All of my friends who work for various video games studios (Ubi, Eidos, Warner, EA, etc.) have to crunch for weeks before each milestone.
What makes me shake my head is that crunch periods are planned in the overall budget and organisation of the projects they're working on.
Yeah planning ahead for it is pretty ridiculous.
I have a friend that used to work for Epic, and they did extended crunches but the bonuses they got for it were unreal (no pun intended). If I remember right it was like 1.5 times yearly salary when Gears 3 shipped for example. Sign me up for a crunch like that any time.
I used to work in a field where "crunch" was my regular way of life. We also got unreal bonuses, but the trade-off wasn't worth it to me. Yes you got paid a lot, but you didn't have any time to spend with friends or do the things that make you happy. Your bank account grew, but you didn't have the time to spend it on anything.
True, but if the development team is not burnt out, is emotionally invested in the project, and doesn't feel taken advantage of, then it can be a point of pride even for the developers. And I say that speaking from experience.
No doubt there have been plenty of bad instances of this in the games industry, especially with EA, but I don't think you can assume just from the tweet that that's the case here. Would be good to hear from someone actually on the development team before making assumptions.
Is it ok to ask this? How much does a video game programmer or developer get paid as entry level?
Depends where they live. In a major city in california is pretty high -- programmer could make $75,000 starting. In the midwest it'd be closer to $50,000.
Designers and artists make significantly less.
'crunch' is the term used for the overtime and extra work / crazy cramming of features at art usually at the end of a project to meet the deadline, traditionally this was in the last month of development, but has now slipped to up to 6 months, and then at crucial development times, ie. 2 months before e3, or a demo is released, or the reveal, or milestones like greenlight, alpha and beta. Often full time employees get no overtime pay for this
I saw a comment somewhere and the person had done the maths and worked out that with a team of 200 they probably did around 58 days of crunch being served meals. in my experience you only get served meals when its big time crunch, not normal crunch, so they could have been working alot of extra before this. Unsure of pay laws in mainland Europe so can't comment on compensation for it,,, would expect not.
Dunno if this was posted:
klei ‏@klei
By the time #DontStarve ships for #PS4, our team will have had over 700 dinners at home with their families. #DontStarveFacts #RyseFacts
You're trying to make this rhetorical and clever but it's not working, because what you said is sort of silly.
Bad shit happens in game development (& any industry) but the idea that you gloat about it is an indicator that the people in charge don't take it seriously and are almost wearing it as a badge of honor. Every time we crunched when I was at a big studio the good producers would take it as a sign of failure, and do a lot of introspective thinking about how they could improve things to avoid the same thing occurring on the next project. The bad ones saw it as a 'reality' of game development that 'happens on every project' and never pushed to improve their practices, which meant things either stayed the same or got worse in the future.
Can you understand why it's important that the people in charge don't treat things like crunch lightly? Essentially their workers are sacrificing their personal lives to bail out the company, like a government bail out, the least the company can do is accept that this isn't a desired scenario and do what they can to avoid ending up here again in the future.
Crunch is a sign of failure, yes it's considered common in our industry but no it shouldn't be considered normal. The best studios are all working towards eliminating crunch where they can because in the long run you make better games and you make them faster if you can retain talented staff and keep a balance. It is not hypocritical to both perform crunch and also see crunch as a failure that needs to be rectified in the future, they are not mutually exclusive actions.
Of course there is, from those who know nothing about what it's like to go through it.God damn, a GAF crunch time defense force....