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New previews for Dark Souls II

B

Bedlam

Member
Steez said:
Eh, it would be the same. Internet likes to complain a lot.

People really need to get their hands on the game and realize how most of the "negative" changes like voice chat and respec will not affect them in the slightest. Some are probably even going to like them on their subsequent playthroughs.
Click to expand...
Those features affected my enjoyment with other games and I'm pretty sure I know what made my experience with the Souls games so great. Some of these changes go directly against some of those things. I don't need anyone else to tell me what affects me and what doesn't. So there you go.

Also, in this forum we talk about videogames, sometimes in critical fashion. There's nothing ridiculous about it. Especially in light of some overarching developments within the medium which many players don't particularly like and which are the reasons why the Souls games became popular in the first place.
 
S

Steez

Member
Bedlam said:
Those features affected my enjoyment with other games and I'm pretty sure I know what made my experience with the Souls games so great. Some of these changes go directly against some of those things. So there you go.

Also, in this forum we talk about videogames, sometimes in critical fashion. There's nothing ridiculous about it. Especially in light of some developments within the medium which many players don't particularly like and which are the reasons why the Souls games became popular in the first place.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I do think it's ridiculous to act like it's the end of the series, because of one optional ring that enables voice chat. I really do.

Same goes for respec. This is the prime example of "just don't use it". And it's not one of those cases where the whole game might've been built around it like fast travel. It's just there for convenience sake and won't ruin replay value. It's completely up the player.
 
J

jimi_dini

Member
SiegfriedFM said:
Black Separation Crystal.
Click to expand...

That's not really a solution, especially when this happens a lot. I don't want to summon, then notice that it's a voice chat ring user and then send him back.

They could of course add a little icon to the summon message, that shows if it's a voice chat users or not. That would somewhat solve it. I got summoned alot in Dark Souls and for those instances, it could get nerve-wrecking. I really don't want to "place summon sign, get summoned, notice that it's a stupid CoD voicechat kid with ADHD and then use a crystal to get back to my own world".

fluffydelusions said:
Posted? JP collectors edition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNz-oIViVnI#t=0
Click to expand...

Glad that I preordered it :D
 
B

Bedlam

Member
Steez said:
I'm sorry, but I do think it's ridiculous to act like it's the end of the series, because of one optional ring that enables voice chat. I really do.

Same goes for respec. This is the prime example of "just don't use it". And it's not one of those cases where the whole game might've been built around it like fast travel. It's just there for convenience sake and won't ruin replay value. It's completely up the player.
Click to expand...
"Just don't use it" is a terrible argument and it just doesn't work. It never worked. I'm not playing a game to fight some self-imposed psychological battles and make up my own rules. I need the game to impose those rules on me. That's a crucial aspect. The game needs to provide the rule framework, not me.

A couple of posts further up in this thread, I already explained thoroughly what NOT being able to warp-travel right from the start contributed to DkS. I baffled by the short-sightedness of some of you who want these convience features.
 
E

E92 M3

Member
Steez said:
Eh, it would be the same. Internet likes to complain a lot.

People really need to get their hands on the game and realize how most of the "negative" changes like voice chat and respec will not affect them in the slightest. Some are probably even going to like them on their subsequent playthroughs.
Click to expand...

The Souls community are a very passionate folk -- personally I fucking adore Dark Souls. The game just works and it's magical. I spent most of my time PVPing in Anor Londo last Saturday and time flew. Dark Souls is just awesome. We all want Dark Souls II to evoke the same passion and love. Yes, we all expect changes; yes, there will be different mechanics here and there. Most importantly, though we don't want the essence of a Souls game to get diluted into casual town. So, we are all naturally worried. Will it be alright when the game launches? Probably. But if it's not, it will be a huge disappointment for us people that have played Dark Souls and Demon's Souls for the last many years.
 
G

Gurrry

Member
I beat the 4 kings last night. I should be very close to losing the Dark Souls chapter on my life and getting ready for Dark Souls 2.

I wouldve liked to play Demon Souls first too.. but theres just not enough time at this point.

E92 M3 said:
The Souls community are a very passionate folk -- personally I fucking adore Dark Souls. The game just works and it's magical. I spent most of my time PVPing in Anor Londo last Saturday and time flew. Dark Souls is just awesome. We all want Dark Souls II to evoke the same passion and love. Yes, we all expect changes; yes, there will be different mechanics here and there. Most importantly, though we don't want the essence of a Souls game to get diluted into casual town. So, we are all naturally worried. Will it be alright when the game launches? Probably. But if it's not, it will be a huge disappointment for us people that have played Dark Souls and Demon's Souls for the last many years.
Click to expand...


So About that... There were times during my play through of Dark Souls where I just wanted to exit out of the main game, goto the main menu, and enter a multiplayer like battle arena. However, the game obviously doesnt have that. Is there any news on the multiplayer features of the Dark Souls 2? Or will it be the same as it is in DS1?

I honestly would love to have it both ways. An singleplayer mode with the summoning and invading as it is now, AND a separate online mode that I can access at any time.

Sometimes you just need a break when the single player experience is burning you out or maybe youre just stuck and need to step away from it for awhule. An easy way to access some type of PVP mode would be AMAZING.
 
V

Visceir

Member
Someone on reddit r/darksouls2 linked to new information on the japanese official site (http://www.darksouls.jp/pc/). If you click on the "Character Making" link in the menu then you can see all the starting classes.

Has everyone decided already what class they'll be starting ass? I'm actually quite tempted to pick bandit.
 
F0rneus

F0rneus

Tears in the rain
Steez said:
Same goes for respec. This is the prime example of "just don't use it".
Click to expand...
This is somewhat short-sighted IMO. This is something that will change the game in a very considerable fashion. The biggest part of the Souls community gathered around the concept of character builds. Building and shaping entire archetypes, from role-play builds, to PvE vs PvP builds. Respec quite literally cuts out that entire part of the experience.

Because Dark Souls, and Demon's Souls for that matter, was all about hard choices. Sitting at a bonfire, pondering how to use the souls you had...It was a hard decision. Everything was permanent. Every choice for that character was permanent and their was no going back. The game's challenge made every player adapt to a role of their picking, and made them stand behind it. It was an integral part of the game, a tool used to make you feel the weight and importance of permanence in this world. That you could be punished for messing up. Unlike most modern games, where players are handled with the utmost care to not lose their interest too quickly.

But that's gone. Now every character can be anything at anytime. IMO that's not just a simple change. That's one of the Souls fundamentals being tossed into the fire.
 
P

Parmenide

Member
Steez said:
I'm sorry, but I do think it's ridiculous to act like it's the end of the series, because of one optional ring that enables voice chat. I really do.

Same goes for respec. This is the prime example of "just don't use it". And it's not one of those cases where the whole game might've been built around it like fast travel. It's just there for convenience sake and won't ruin replay value. It's completely up the player.
Click to expand...
No, it's not the same thing. There's some difference between climbing a mountain with or without harnesses.
 
E

E92 M3

Member
Spoony Bob said:
Do climbers actively complain that other climbers are wearing a harness?
Click to expand...

That analogy is not relevant here at all. We are talking about a piece of entertainment.

Gurrry said:
I beat the 4 kings last night. I should be very close to losing the Dark Souls chapter on my life and getting ready for Dark Souls 2.

I wouldve liked to play Demon Souls first too.. but theres just not enough time at this point.




So About that... There were times during my play through of Dark Souls where I just wanted to exit out of the main game, goto the main menu, and enter a multiplayer like battle arena. However, the game obviously doesnt have that. Is there any news on the multiplayer features of the Dark Souls 2? Or will it be the same as it is in DS1?

I honestly would love to have it both ways. An singleplayer mode with the summoning and invading as it is now, AND a separate online mode that I can access at any time.

Sometimes you just need a break when the single player experience is burning you out or maybe youre just stuck and need to step away from it for awhule. An easy way to access some type of PVP mode would be AMAZING.
Click to expand...

Well, the DLC did have the PVP arena, but I never dabbled in it.
 
F0rneus

F0rneus

Tears in the rain
Spoony Bob said:
Do climbers actively complain that other climbers are wearing a harness?
Click to expand...

They complain because the sport was called "climbing without a harness". And because there were a lot of safe sports out there to be enjoyed, for people who didn't want to "climb without a harness".
 
S

Steez

Member
E92 M3 said:
The Souls community are a very passionate folk -- personally I fucking adore Dark Souls. The game just works and it's magical. I spent most of my time PVPing in Anor Londo last Saturday and time flew. Dark Souls is just awesome. We all want Dark Souls II to evoke the same passion and love. Yes, we all expect changes; yes, there will be different mechanics here and there. Most importantly, though we don't want the essence of a Souls game to get diluted into casual town. So, we are all naturally worried. Will it be alright when the game launches? Probably. But if it's not, it will be a huge disappointment for us people that have played Dark Souls and Demon's Souls for the last many years.
Click to expand...

I'm just as passionate about Souls as the next guy, hell, maybe even more. And I too have my concerns like world design being more linear and less interconnected due to fast travel, or stats not being balanced enough. Why? Because those are mechanics that have a direct impact on design or gameplay.

But optional voice chat and respec? Really? Is it that hard to resist your urge to use a freaking respec mechanic? I don't know, maybe I'm just more strong-willed than others, but this is such a non-issue to me. I just don't get it.

I'll probably use it a few times just to check out a new weapon, instead of dedicating an entire build to 58 strength, because I want to see the one-handed moveset of a certain weapon. Other than that, nah, I'll just roll a new character.

F0rneus said:
They complain because the sport was called "climbing without a harness". And because there were a lot of safe sports out there to be enjoyed, for people who didn't want to "climb without a harness".
Click to expand...

Okay, but wouldn't it be easier to keep climbing without a harness?
 
O

OrigiNull

Member
I am just excited to get hands on and have faith that FS will crank up the difficulty to counter these new features.

Especially this new climbing harness I have been hearing so much about!!!
 
E

E92 M3

Member
Steez said:
I'm just as passionate about Souls as the next guy, hell, maybe even more. And I too have my concerns like world design being more linear and less interconnected due to fast travel, or stats not being balanced enough. Why? Because those are mechanics that have a direct impact on design or gameplay.

But optional voice chat and respec? Really? Is it that hard to resist your urge to use a freaking respec mechanic? I don't know, maybe I'm just more strong-willed than others, but this is such a non-issue to me. I just don't get it.

I'll probably use it a few times just to check out a new weapon, instead of dedicating an entire build to 58 strength, because I want to see the one-handed moveset of a certain weapon. Other than that, nah, I'll just roll a new character.
Click to expand...

The developer thought process to implement a respec mechanic can leak into other sections of the game. The Souls games were always designed around the concepts of permanence - and respecing betrays that. That's what we are more worried about: the influence these decisions had on the whole design of the game. Games aren't built in a vacuum; they have overarching design philosophies. With these decisions we are starting to get worried about the DSII design philosophies. Not just the respecing individually. Who knows what other decisions From made based of that.

In the end, though, as of now we don't know much - but come March 11th, I am sure as hell excited to see how everything pans out. Hopefully, there are no gaming breaking glitches or anything like that.
 
S

Steez

Member
E92 M3 said:
The developer thought process to implement a respec mechanic can leak into other sections of the game. The Souls games were always designed around the concepts of permanence - and respecing betrays that. That's what we are more worried about: the influence these decisions had on the whole design of the game. Games aren't built in a vacuum; they have overarching design philosophies. With these decisions we are starting to get worried about the DSII design philosophies. Not just the respecing individually. Who knows what other decisions From made based of that.
Click to expand...

I know. That's why I'm also concerned about the effects that fast travel might have on the world design, but I just fail to see how simple a respec mechanic is going to negatively influence the game in a substantial way.

Making something less tedious is not a bad thing.
 
F0rneus

F0rneus

Tears in the rain
E92 M3 said:
The developer thought process to implement a respec mechanic can leak into other sections of the game. The Souls games were always designed around the concepts of permanence - and respecing betrays that. That's what we are more worried about: the influence these decisions had on the whole design of the game. Games aren't built in a vacuum; they have overarching design philosophies.
Click to expand...

That's what I was trying to say but my secondary language skills were failing me pretty hard. From has seemingly taken steps towards trying to appeal to people who aren't used to being punished from bad decision making.

And I fear that I am right about this. When I read on Eurogamer that Drangleic "feels less dense with detail, and less steeped with a mournful sense of foreboding", I can't help but fear for the game's overarching design. When I hear Videogamer's preview say that he could see the videogame seams of the game, unlike the previous two Souls, I fear for the game.

For a dev, that want to push the community aspect via easier connection and voice chat, they will dynamite the entire part of the fanbase who spent hours upon hours, dissecting the stats and creating new builds. DS was played for so long, and discussed for so long because of all the playthroughs, people made with varying builds. The people who did that, and kept the game so popular could very well drop it a lot quicker than they ever did with DS. If they ever even drop it.
 
L

Lost Fragment

Obsessed with 4chan
Basically everyone I've seen who are against the respeccing item seem to be assuming that it's just gonna be free respeccing once you get the item.

Whether you only get one per play through or whatever, it's probably not gonna be free. That sense of permanence will still be in play. The argument is pretty silly here.
 
D

dynamitejim

Member
E92 M3 said:
The Souls games were always designed around the concepts of permanence - and respecing betrays that.
Click to expand...

Except that you could farm souls and up whatever stat you needed whenever you felt like it? Casuals will just grind if they find a weapon or item they want to use if they don't have the stat requirement. The hardcore will still have different characters for different builds because that's the whole point of role playing. I imagine the only people this will be used by are heavy PvPers who like to get into the nitty, gritty of testing out different mixes of stats, weapon, armor, magic, etc. But that's certainly not a bad thing. The opposition to this seems purely ideological, rather than practical.
 
F0rneus

F0rneus

Tears in the rain
dynamitejim said:
Except that you could farm souls and up whatever stat you needed whenever you felt like it?
Click to expand...

Yeah, except a poor player could very well spent his points on the wrong stat and end up with a borked character. A punishment for trying to abuse the system, and a valuable lesson. Think things through. That simple adage basically summed up the game. Think things through. Now you can grind, make a character do anything, at anytime Skyrim style. Everyone is a champion in everything in DSII.
 
F

Fallout-NL

Member
Steez said:
I know. That's why I'm also concerned about the effects that fast travel might have on the world design, but I just fail to see how simple a respec mechanic is going to negatively influence the game in a substantial way.

Making something less tedious is not a bad thing.
Click to expand...


Just look at the difference between Diablo 2 and 3. Or vanilla WoW and whatever the fuck that game is now.

Now if Dark Souls 2 had more accessibility in terms of interface and providing some much needed information about what everything does or what your decisions actually mean... I would say that's an improvement that doesn't compromise the core of the game.

Respeccing though... that might have serious implications. Like I said, look at Diablo 3.
 
T

The_Hitcher89

Member
How would you guys have respeccing work?

I'd have it so:

-Taking a point out of a category gives you half the souls needed to level up
-You can only take points out of a category twice per playthrough, and you can't go lower than the base stat for whichever class you choose
 
dugdug

dugdug

Banned
Steez said:
I'm just as passionate about Souls as the next guy, hell, maybe even more. And I too have my concerns like world design being more linear and less interconnected due to fast travel, or stats not being balanced enough. Why? Because those are mechanics that have a direct impact on design or gameplay.

But optional voice chat and respec? Really? Is it that hard to resist your urge to use a freaking respec mechanic? I don't know, maybe I'm just more strong-willed than others, but this is such a non-issue to me. I just don't get it.

I'll probably use it a few times just to check out a new weapon, instead of dedicating an entire build to 58 strength, because I want to see the one-handed moveset of a certain weapon. Other than that, nah, I'll just roll a new character.



Okay, but wouldn't it be easier to keep climbing without a harness?
Click to expand...

And, there it is. You want to pretend like it won't change the game, but, deep down, you know it will.

Remains to be seen whether or not it will *negatively* affect the game, but, yeah. We can pretend to ignore it all we want, but, fact of the matter is that, if it's there, people will use it. It makes choice absolutely meaningless, in a series, where, previously, choice was paramount.
 
V

Vlade

Member
I hope there is no respeccing. How about this, if you respec, you can't be online? No invading, no being invaded, no jolly cooperation? Hey, better yet, no respeccing.
 
S

Steez

Member
Fallout-NL said:
Just look at the difference between Diablo 2 and 3. Or vanilla WoW and whatever the fuck that game is now.
Click to expand...

I can't comment on Wow since I only played it very casually for a few months, but Diablo's skill system was incredibly flawed from the ground up and in general not very well designed. Respec itself didn't do much damage imo.

Vlade said:
I hope there is no respeccing. How about this, if you respec, you can't be online? No invading, no being invaded, no jolly cooperation? Hey, better yet, no respeccing.
Click to expand...

Why? Why does it matter to you, if others respec their character? It's just like invading two different guys.
 
E

E92 M3

Member
Steez said:
I know. That's why I'm also concerned about the effects that fast travel might have on the world design, but I just fail to see how simple a respec mechanic is going to negatively influence the game in a substantial way.

Making something less tedious is not a bad thing.
Click to expand...

A simple mechanic here, easier world travel there, voice active -- all of these things add up. I am not a cynical person by nature, but I'd be lying if I said that these changes aren't worrying me. Also, I'd be the first to eat crow if the game comes out perfect and I was wrong about everything.

F0rneus said:
That's what I was trying to say but my secondary language skills were failing me pretty hard. From has seemingly taken steps towards trying to appeal to people who aren't used to being punished from bad decision making.

And I fear that I am right about this. When I read on Eurogamer that Drangleic "feels less dense with detail, and less steeped with a mournful sense of foreboding", I can't help but fear for the game's overarching design. When I hear Videogamer's preview say that he could see the videogame seams of the game, unlike the previous two Souls, I fear for the game.

For a dev, that want to push the community aspect via easier connection and voice chat, they will dynamite the entire part of the fanbase who spent hours upon hours, dissecting the stats and creating new builds. DS was played for so long, and discussed for so long because of all the playthroughs, people made with varying builds. The people who did that, and kept the game so popular could very well drop it a lot quicker than they ever did with DS. If they ever even drop it.
Click to expand...

Hmm, haven't read the Eurogamer preview -- will dwell into that later.

dynamitejim said:
Except that you could farm souls and up whatever stat you needed whenever you felt like it? Casuals will just grind if they find a weapon or item they want to use if they don't have the stat requirement. The hardcore will still have different characters for different builds because that's the whole point of role playing. I imagine the only people this will be used by are heavy PvPers who like to get into the nitty, gritty of testing out different mixes of stats, weapon, armor, magic, etc. But that's certainly not a bad thing. The opposition to this seems purely ideological, rather than practical.
Click to expand...

Some things that made the Souls games great are not practical at all and in fact very unorthodox and archaic -- lack of tutorial, explanations, no forgiveness for mistakes, actions have to be carefully measured. Most game designers stray away from these decisions because they are not so practical for today's gaming audience, but From embraced them, The Souls games are great due to ideologies; practicality has place but it needs to be carefully and delicately balanced.
 
F

Fallout-NL

Member
Steez said:
I can't comment on Wow since I only played it very casually for a few months, but Diablo's skill system was incredibly flawed from the ground up and in general not very well designed. Respec itself didn't do much damage imo.
Click to expand...


I assume you're saying Diablo 2's skill system was incredibly flawed? Because... that's also the game that's pretty much unanimously considered to be the best hack & slash / rpg ever made.

The one that people have been playing (and coming up with new builds for) for almost 14 years now.
 
S

Steez

Member
Fallout-NL said:
I assume you're saying Diablo 2's skill system was incredibly flawed? Because... that's also the game that's pretty much unanimously considered to be the best hack & slash / rpg ever made.

The one that people have been playing for almost 14 years now.
Click to expand...

I'm obviously talking about 3. You know, the one with respec, the thing we were talking about just a second ago...
 
F

Fallout-NL

Member
Steez said:
I'm obviously talking about 3. You know, the one with respec, the thing we were talking about just a second ago...
Click to expand...

Right, sorry, I was thrown off by the way you phrased your reply.

In any case, I still feel that the on-the-fly respeccing is core to Diablo 3's problems and root cause of its limited replayability.

/edit: you're right though in saying that it's flawed in other areas as well, but the thing is that they designed the entire game and skill system around the ability to do that, which did, very much, negatively affect the game's depth and versatility.

Anyway...

When I hear Videogamer's preview say that he could see the videogame seams of the game, unlike the previous two Souls, I fear for the game.
Click to expand...

This to me seems more worrying than the whole respeccing issue.
 
V

Vlade

Member
Steez said:
Why? Why does it matter to you, if others respec their character? It's just like invading two different guys.
Click to expand...
Part of what Dark Souls delivers that I love so much is the anonymity and diversity which you will lose if people can just get to a certain point and make some build they read about for invasions. I also like the idea that when I met someone, I know the trials they went through in the game to get here. If I'm playing against people's respecs, it's less fun. I don't want a bunch of clones to be the online experience. I also don't care to debate whether that's what will happen or not or if I should feel that way. I would be happy to hear the merits of respeccing or ways to address its shortcomings, but I'm quite settled on my current feelings.
 
M

Moral Panic

Member
I don't understand how people can seriously say that Souls games aren't videogamey. They have levels, farming, weapons have numbers for stats, health and stamina bars (and mama bar in DeS), can carry unrealistic amount of items (infinite in DaS). They are videogames, RPG's to the cxore and that is why the changes are troubling, because we have seen how these changes affect other games and think they may have a negative impact.

BTW, It was possible to respec in DeS. Get a friend to soul suck you.
 
S

Steez

Member
Xer0 said:
And, there it is. You want to pretend like it won't change the game, but, deep down, you know it will.

Remains to be seen whether or not it will *negatively* affect the game, but, yeah. We can pretend to ignore it all we want, but, fact of the matter is that, if it's there, people will use it. It makes choice absolutely meaningless, in a series, where, previously, choice was paramount.
Click to expand...

I explicitly said negatively affect the game. So no, it's not there.

And great, let people use it as much as they want. How does that change your game?

Vlade said:
Part of what Dark Souls delivers that I love so much is the anonymity and diversity which you will lose if people can just get to a certain point and make some build they read about for invasions. I also like the idea that when I met someone, I know the trials they went through in the game to get here. If I'm playing against people's respecs, it's less fun. I don't want a bunch of clones to be the online experience.
Click to expand...

I mean, you're either going to meet somebody who knows what he's doing, or you're going to meet somebody who doesn't. Dude with Drake Sword in Sen's Fortress won't magically disappear just because he can respec his character.

And we already have tons of giant dads and sunlight blade falchions in Dark Souls. The only difference is that those people are going to be able to set up their character faster. What you'll see on your end is going to be the same as in the previous game.
 
I

Incendiary

Banned
F0rneus said:
But that's gone. Now every character can be anything at anytime. IMO that's not just a simple change. That's one of the Souls fundamentals being tossed into the fire.
Click to expand...

I feel like this is an exaggeration of the respeccing issue. I doubt it'll be available right away or in an easy location to get to. It probably won't be free either. Also in Dark Souls each build required multiple playthroughs usually to get everything awesome. I believe it takes three playthroughs to get every miracle, right?

Personally I think it'll be easier to make multiple characters than respec willy-nilly for the hell of it.
 
B

Bedlam

Member
Steez said:
I explicitly said negatively affect the game. So no, it's not there.

And great, let people use it as much as they want. How does that change your game?
Click to expand...
I explained these things already to you.

Moral Panic said:
I don't understand how people can seriously say that Souls games aren't videogamey. They have levels, farming, weapons have numbers for stats, health and stamina bars (and mama bar in DeS), can carry unrealistic amount of items (infinite in DaS). They are videogames, RPG's to the cxore and that is why the changes are troubling, because we have seen how these changes affect other games and think they may have a negative impact.
Click to expand...
They obviously mean "like modern videogames" by saying "game-y."

Moral Panic said:
BTW, It was possible to respec in DeS. Get a friend to soul suck you.
Click to expand...
Spoony Bob said:
I'd be interested to know if anyone angry at the inclusion of a respec feature ever used the bottomless box glitch.
Click to expand...

To both of you, second part of this post.
 
V

Visceir

Member
Incendiary said:
I feel like this is an exaggeration of the respeccing issue. I doubt it'll be available right away or in an easy location to get to. It probably won't be free either. Also in Dark Souls each build required multiple playthroughs usually to get everything awesome. I believe it takes three playthroughs to get every miracle, right?

Personally I think it'll be easier to make multiple characters than respec willy-nilly for the hell of it.
Click to expand...

I read somewhere that the soulvessel is
just locked away in one of the houses in Majula
, maybe it'll be easily accessible afterall.

And the whole respeccing thing would just kinda make it lose a sense of worth in my character. Why worry about planning out things or being careful with your level ups when you know you can just change it if you fuck it up? Planning out my character and making careful decisions is a big part of Dark Souls.
 
D

dynamitejim

Member
F0rneus said:
Yeah, except a poor player could very well spent his points on the wrong stat and end up with a borked character. A punishment for trying to abuse the system, and a valuable lesson. Think things through. That simple adage basically summed up the game. Think things through. Now you can grind, make a character do anything, at anytime Skyrim style. Everyone is a champion in everything in DSII.
Click to expand...

You're exaggerating like crazy. You didn't need to be high level to beat either previous Souls games. You act like there were people who only put points into Resistance or something. You could get through either game with a basic well upgraded weapon just fine and some points in Vitality and Endurance, which is where the vast majority of players probably put their points anyway. People do low level runs all the time, people have done SL1 runs. Stats were never the most important part of Souls. Weapon, armor, item, and spell choice were always more important. And guess what? Weapon respeccing was in both games and no one complained about it.
 
S

Steez

Member
Bedlam said:
You haven't explained anything. All you said was "don't use it" and "it's not going to affect you negatively because I don't believe that it's a mechanic that has much influence over the general game design, unlike something akin to fast travel"
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And all you said was "I don't like thing" and "I have to use it because it's there". I don't see how that refutes my claim that some of you guys are overreacting to the whole respec mechanic like it would completely change how Souls games are played.

Look at it that way: Was Oswald such a bad addition to the Souls games? Pardoning sins goes against the philosophy of Demon's Souls, but I sure as hell was glad that I could calm down Solaire, if needed.
 
H

H_Prestige

Banned
Respec is useful to trim the fat off your build, by removing some wasted stat points. I have some builds in Dark Souls that annoy me because they have wasted points in vitality or endurance, etc.

I would never use the option to completely rebuild a character's stats. I'd rather just start a new character. That way I still keep the old one as well.
 
B

Bedlam

Member
dynamitejim said:
You're exaggerating like crazy. You didn't need to be high level to beat either previous Souls games. You act like there were people who only put points into Resistance or something. You could get through either game with a basic well upgraded weapon just fine and some points in Vitality and Endurance, which is where the vast majority of players probably put their points anyway. People do low level runs all the time, people have done SL1 runs. Stats were never the most important part of Souls. Weapon, armor, item, and spell choice were always more important. And guess what? Weapon respeccing was in both games and no one complained about it.
Click to expand...
Do you realize that the ability to finish the game with pretty much all kinds of builds is a huge argument against respeccing being included as a feature?

When arguing for respeccing, people often cite the possibility of making wrong decisions and possibly ending up with a character that is not able to complete the game as reasons for including it. That's obivously not the case with the Souls games and it's not the case with the old Diablo games either.

But in order for the character progression to be meaningful, there has to be the risk of making a "wrong" decision. And "wrong" in this context means not making the optimal decision but never losing the ability to finish the game. Some characters just end up being a bit stronger than others. But you can only feel satisfaction about your right decisions when the possibilty of making wrong decisions exists. Again: highs and lows. In Diablo 3, I just don't give a shit about anything in terms of character progression. It's meaningless because there are no mistakes to be made.
 
B

Bedlam

Member
Steez said:
And all you said was "I don't like thing" and "I have to use it because it's there". I don't see how that refutes my claim that some of you guys are overreacting to the whole respec mechanic like it would completely change how Souls games are played.
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Again: that's not how it works psychologically.

I'm not playing the game to fight voluntary psychological battles. The game has to provide the rules framework, not me.

Of course I will use everything provided within that rules framework to complete the game (that does not mean I will use exploits or external methods). That's just natural and that's how the Souls games worked as well. You always go the path of the least resistance.

Let me illustrate it with another example: I think the introduction of the quicksave feature has completely killed suspense in FPS games (yes, I played those games long before that became a thing). There were also people saying "don't use it if you don't like it" but that's not how it works. I don't want to sit there playing through a difficult section and constantly thinking "No I'm not going to use quicksave, nope. Not gonna do it." What my thoughts exclusively should revolve around in this situation is "Oh my god, I'm on my last sliver of health, I have to make it through this level somehow... oh my god oh my god." The possibility to quicksave shouldn't be there so I don't think about it. This has nothing to do with being mentally not strong enough. It's just natural to use whatever is readily available to complete a challenge. Of course I could force myself to not use certain features but that would just not be an enjoyable experience for me because that's not a decision I should be forced to make. Not being able to quicksave made AVP1 on PC such an extremely tense experience (prior to the patch), for example.
 
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