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Vox: Research says there are ways to reduce racism. Calling people racist isn’t one.

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M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
crooked spin said:
surely he didn't campaign on that. that absolves me?
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Well, it certainly makes a difference. If you vote for Obama because he campaigns about a peace process in the Middle East, and he ends up bombing it instead, that's on Obama, not you. If Obama promises to bomb the shit out of the Middle East, and you vote for him, and he does exactly that, that's on you.

See the difference?

Edit: there's also an argument to be made about being foolish enough to believe a politician's promises, of course. If Obama had been shown to be a pathological liar constantly, and you voted for him because "he said he'd have a more peaceful foreign policy!", I would laugh at you and say "wait you actually believed that?", but if he's been decently consistent (as far as politicians go) it'd be different.
 
D

Dineren

Banned
I've tried being civil when discussing racism and bigotry with my family and they just don't care. When the BLM movement started, I tried talking to them about institutional racism, I sent them links detailing the thoughts and feelings of those who were affected by it and their response was always the same. Don't commit crimes and you won't go to jail or be shot.

Just today I tried talking to a cousin that doesn't like Trump, but doesn't think it's that big a deal he was elected, about the possible ramifications of his presidency and the second I brought up the people in Trump's transition team, his response was "Oh, is this about men not being able to use the women's restroom? Because I'm all for that, I'm a woman I'll go take a look".

Fuck that, why should I even try in situations like that? It's sad because I always thought of my family as reasonable caring people, but clearly I was mistaken. If they can't even summon a tiny amount of empathy for others, why waste time even trying? I'll just call them out on their bigotry, racism, and sexism, if that makes them uncomfortable or angry, I don't care.

I can't even delude myself into thinking they voted Trump because of the economy since my family is pretty well off. They just spout vague things about taking our country back (like that isn't a giant red flag) or needing to force change in Washington.

I can't cut everyone out of my life who voted for Trump, but I sure as hell don't have to subject myself to most of them.
 
B

Bossking

Banned
crooked spin said:
surely he didn't campaign on that. that absolves me?
Click to expand...

How the hell would anyone know that drone strikes against civilians would happen?

Trump, however, told you clear as day that he's going to deport those rapist Mexicans, kill the families of terrorists, use the nukes, ban Muslims, reinforce racist "law and order" actions against black people, stop the jews from taking your money, and that he'll personally destroy the environment.
 
C

CopperPuppy

Member
"I like Trump because he's not PC, isn't afraid to say what's on his mind, and tells it like it is!"

(other side of mouth)

"How dare you call me a racist. You need to be more careful about what you say. It's this kind of intolerant speech and generalization that pushed me toward Trump in the first place."
 
L

Liu Kang Baking A Pie

Member
CopperPuppy said:
"I like Trump because he's not PC, isn't afraid to say what's on his mind, and tells it like it is!"

(other side of mouth)

"How dare you call me a racist. You need to be more careful about what you say. It's this kind of intolerant speech and generalization that pushed me toward Trump in the first place."
Click to expand...
Yeeeeep.
 
0

0coolclimate0

Member
Darryl M R said:
You are so fragile. I posted every single response you received before you blew up and had a hissy fit yet you were attacked still?
Click to expand...

There were tons of other responses that you conviently left out. I don't feel like I blew up at all, I guess it depends on how you define "blowing up". And yes I don't like being attacked, who the hell does?
My entire point for coming to this thread was to say the things that made me vote for Trump try to realize the feelings of other people and apologize. I wasn't able to get to any of those because every time I refresh the stupid page on my phone half of the responses are just attacks,a fourth of them were calling me idiot and only the other fourth are real questions.
 
V

Vermillion

Banned
CopperPuppy said:
"I like Trump because he's not PC, isn't afraid to say what's on his mind, and tells it like it is!"

(other side of mouth)

"How dare you call me a racist. You need to be more careful about what you say. It's this kind of intolerant speech and generalization that pushed me toward Trump in the first place."
Click to expand...

You're not wrong.

That doesn't change the best way to change people. "There but for the grace of god go I."
 
C

Curufinwe

Member
CopperPuppy said:
"I like Trump because he's not PC, isn't afraid to say what's on his mind, and tells it like it is!"

(other side of mouth)

"How dare you call me a racist. You need to be more careful about what you say. It's this kind of intolerant speech and generalization that pushed me toward Trump in the first place."
Click to expand...

Well said.

There is no point trying to educate or convince people whose fundamental identity is based on being a complete hypocrite.
 
C

cdyhybrid

Member
0coolclimate0 said:
There were tons of other responses that you conviently left out. I don't feel like I blew up at all, I guess it depends on how you define "blowing up". And yes I don't like being attacked, who the hell does?
My entire point for coming to this thread was to say the things that made me vote for Trump try to realize the feelings of other people and apologize. I wasn't able to get to any of those because every time I refresh the stupid page on my phone half of the responses are just attacks,a fourth of them were calling me idiot and only the other fourth are real questions.
Click to expand...
No one's stopping you from posting the apology. Go ahead.
 
D

Darryl M R

Member
0coolclimate0 said:
There were tons of other responses that you conviently left out. I don't feel like I blew up at all, I guess it depends on how you define "blowing up". And yes I don't like being attacked, who the hell does?
My entire point for coming to this thread was to say the things that made me vote for Trump try to realize the feelings of other people and apologize. I wasn't able to get to any of those because every time I refresh the stupid page on my phone half of the responses are just attacks,a fourth of them were calling me idiot and only the other fourth are real questions.
Click to expand...

So you are fragile and a liar because I posted every response up until this post of yours (which I made very clear was your hissy fit):


0coolclimate0 said:
Comments like this are the exact reason that I cast my vote the way I did. Refusing to look at any other part of this election and demonizing myself and family was enough.
Click to expand...
 
B

Brian Griffin

Member
0coolclimate0 said:
I haven't determined I'm in the right. It's hard to open any sort of dialogue about this at all. Even more so on an online forum. Especially considering how many people get banned for discussing it.

A lot of my vote was to stick in the face of people, let's all be honest here nobody thought this guy would fucking win. I'm not closed off to a dialogue, but I'm not going to sit there and be called all these things. Most people who supported Trump hide that they did it, at least that's been my experience. I came to this specific thread because I felt like it was a place where I could openly admit and discuss it. I'm not a hard-liner, I've looked back and seen some of the things that he is done and I myself wonder why I voted for him. Someone said it was out of spite, you're absolutely correct.

Coming to discuss it and being right off the bat labeled as all these different things, that's not a discussion that's an attack. And it is a consistent theme.
Where is the room for me to see a different point of view and learn from what you guys are feeling? When all I'm hearing is how I'm in the Special Olympics and a bigot. Those is all things that I've heard before it's nothing new. I realized a few minutes after posting that there is no such thing as an open dialogue, and most certainly not on this form. I shouldn't have posted my position or how I got there. But a thread about openening a dialogue seems like it might be a good place. I guess I was wrong.
Click to expand...
Duuude, no one is calling you, personally, anything. I and others just want to know why. Why, man? Why did you vote for a guy who said on multiple occasions, "ban all Muslims"? Why did you vote for "grab em by the pussy"?

I believe you that you and your family is not racist. Why did you vote for someone who clearly is to some degree and who surrounds himself with people who undeniably are?

You said it was partly because Hillary called people deplorable, which she did apologize for. Are the KKK not deplorable? Neo nazis?

Why, man?
 
B

BitStyle

Unconfirmed Member
0coolclimate0 said:
There were tons of other responses that you conviently left out. I don't feel like I blew up at all, I guess it depends on how you define "blowing up". And yes I don't like being attacked, who the hell does?
My entire point for coming to this thread was to say the things that made me vote for Trump try to realize the feelings of other people and apologize. I wasn't able to get to any of those because every time I refresh the stupid page on my phone half of the responses are just attacks,a fourth of them were calling me idiot and only the other fourth are real questions.
Click to expand...

If you have come forth with a message to express, the amount of replies the topic is generating should not be an obstruction. You are free to convey your feelings any time.
 
0

0coolclimate0

Member
I'm sorry I voted for Trump. I don't have a time machine and I can't go back and change my vote. Like I said before I voted out of spite and it was a bad decision.
 
B

BitStyle

Unconfirmed Member
0coolclimate0 said:
I'm sorry I voted for Trump. I don't have a time machine and I can't go back and change my vote. Like I said before I voted out of spite and it was a bad decision.
Click to expand...

And I accept your apology. I just hope that you sincerely reflected on your actions and will be up with the rest of us when things go south.
 
A

AyaisMUsikWhore

Member
I just find it funny that these people didn't bat an eye when this shit is constantly happening to POC especially blacks and we are still called thugs, reminded about black on black crime and the oh so amazing daily reminder of MLK but I'm suppose to feel empathy for their situation? Fuck that...

I hate being ignorant and I have given a lot of empathy to those in these situations but this is not a situation that I'm going to sit here and feel bad about. Now these people knows what it feels like and instead of them empathising with those who know this pain and why we protest and scream for these very same opportunities that want...they double down and think we don't deserve it. All of a sudden , their recent issue should overtake our issues that have been happening to us for centuries....I won't have it...sorry.
 
A

abstract alien

Member
Only an idiot would think that attacking someone's character so directly, be it true or not, would help change them. It hardly ever works with anything, and it isn't going to work here. A generic example, but calling someone fat often leads to even worse behavior for them. Sure, it works with a few people, but not many. It doesn't help in this day and age when every little thing is labeled as something negative, so it trivializes the accounts that are actually worth noting(subjectivity and all).
 
C

cdyhybrid

Member
0coolclimate0 said:
I'm sorry I voted for Trump. I don't have a time machine and I can't go back and change my vote. Like I said before I voted out of spite and it was a bad decision.
Click to expand...
I accept your apology. I hope you understand the potential consequences of your actions and let's all try and do better in the future.
 
V

Via Purifico

Banned
What some people are not realizing is that some of these people are literally going up to minorities inciting confrontations. I had a friend in Florida get threatened saying he was gonna get shot, what do you do for people like him who wants nothing to do with racists?.


Asking for minorities to take the high road and educate is asking for too much especially in this current climate. If anything it's the white liberals who should step up and gain minority allies to make them feel included. Many of my friends are not too interested in sitting down with any racist right now family or stranger because of their experiences after the election.
 
P

Pai Pai Master

Banned
0coolclimate0 said:
I'm sorry I voted for Trump. I don't have a time machine and I can't go back and change my vote. Like I said before I voted out of spite and it was a bad decision.
Click to expand...

I just hope, for your sake and mine, that the decision to put a racist and anti-semite in the ear of the president does not come back to bite you. We all need eachother to get through this in one piece so I'm glad you are at least seeing where we've gone wrong here. We're in this together.
 
Q

QaaQer

Member
0coolclimate0 said:
I've seen racism on both sides. I have to leave this thread. Right off the bat I start getting asked questions that no matter how I answer are specifically designed to make me look bad.
Have fun.
Click to expand...

Much of forum stuff is just point scoring and trying to best other posters, which works against understanding. Forums are really bad at fostering empathy, nuance, and allowing dissent.

*. *. *.

I just picked up a book called The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion. I'm hoping it will give me some insight into why many people refuse to talk to each other. or when they do, it's just shouting.
 
E

EdibleKnife

Member
0coolclimate0 said:
I'm sorry I voted for Trump. I don't have a time machine and I can't go back and change my vote. Like I said before I voted out of spite and it was a bad decision.
Click to expand...

Cool. If you're truly regretful there are environmental, civil, racial, & gender related charities and movements of all types that will need all the support or help they can get as Trump and his cabinet move forward with their plans. Pick your pet project, ignore whatever liberal name-calling it was that convinced you to vote Trump and assist people who are actually in peril.
 
A

Auto-Reply

Member
It is always very tempting to assign labels to Trump voters, I'm not even in the US, not an US citizen even, so I really have to force myself not to go on a verbally abusive spree how dumb and racist I think they are.

I just talked to my mother over the phone, we haven't talked in a while and somehow politics became part of the converstation, I think because we haven't even talked about the result of the US president election.

And surprise surprise, what do you know, the political party in my country that you would consider to be the extreme loud far right racist party was not only not outright condemned in this conversation, but I had to hear excuses and favorable talk about them. I didn't ask but I think I know where her vote goes to in the next elections we have :(

Now is my own mother a racist (in good relation with friends of foreign heritage, her brother married to a black woman and they are also in good standing etc etc)...

I'd say yes, fear pushes many people to the extreme sides of the spectrum, it seems only few are strong enough to withstand the pressure that comes from within. There is no way there is no guilt, I'm tempted to call her the same things I want to call Trump supporters, I still love her though.

I've also just seen the Moore docu Trumpland, I saw the same reasons for why many people support Trump, fear.

Fear is the mindkiller!
 
Fox Mulder

Fox Mulder

Member
I simply don't care to understand their views or educate them. Fuck them if being called a racist hurts their feelings.
 
H

Henkka

Banned
You can say 0coolclimate0 was irrational for voting for Trump out of spite, sure. But people are irrational, and you kinda have to take that into account when trying to sell your candidate. If he felt that the other side was full of obnoxious assholes constantly calling his family and friends deplorable, it's not particularly surprising he voted the way he did. To say that the liberal left has zero responsibility for causing this reaction is not helpful.
 
prag16

prag16

Banned
0coolclimate0 said:
I'm sorry I voted for Trump. I don't have a time machine and I can't go back and change my vote. Like I said before I voted out of spite and it was a bad decision.
Click to expand...

Have a backbone. You're not accountable to the gaf hivemind. People here didn't really present any arguments other than the usual "rabblerabblerabble RACIST!" as you pointed out yourself at one point.. that the vast majority of replies were substance-free attack shitposts.

If you truly feel this way (independent of any influence from this thread) and you voted strictly for spite, then yes, you fucked up.

However at the same time a lot of people probably voted for spite, and your case is at least anecdotal evidence that the "tactic" seen here of unilaterally berating everyone as racist is not effective and in fact counterproductive.

EDIT: The post right above mine echoes my point in the last paragraph.
 
B

beast786

Member
Shocking news


People aren't born racist . Many are privilege here to be born in families and time where that aspect of racial discrimination is taught.

Calling people racist and shutting them off is being that high horse that thinks as if they as individuals are special beyond law of nature.

Be glad you were raised right and help others see it.

Obviously, I don't believe in free will. Bring change via talking and communicating. No one is born racist
 
H

hydragonwarrior

Member
Auto-Reply said:
I've also just seen the Moore docu Trumpland, I saw the same reasons for why many people support Trump, fear.

Fear is the mindkiller!
Click to expand...

And the more amazing thing I saw is how well Republican media can control the media. They took the exact message of inexperience of Trump in handling nuclear codes, and turned it against Hillary as her being a warmonger and fear that she'll cause a war.

It was incredulous, but the rightwing media just kept pushing it till it stuck. Now some Republicans had a mission to save the world!

The e-mails simply proved that any stupid thing, as long as it's stays in the media enough, and people speak ill of it loudly enough, will stick.

I'm disproven by Obama's certificate though - they tried hard to make that stick, but I suppose the lack of any evidence made that go away.
 
B

Beefy

Member
beast786 said:
Shocking news


People aren't born racist . Many are privilege here to be born in families and time where that aspect of racial discrimination is taught.

Calling people racist and shutting them off is being that high horse that thinks as if they as individuals are special beyond law of nature.

Be glad you were raised right and help others see it.

Obviously, I don't believe in free will. Bring change via talking and communicating. No one is born racist
Click to expand...

Why should I help people that racially abuse me?

"Oh look you just called me nigger, that's sit down and talk about it"

Nah I will pass
 
J

.JayZii

Banned
I don't think anyone is surprised by this.

Feeling morally superior is nice, but converting people into not having shitty views is hard and necessary work.
 
Y

Yoritomo

Member
BlackJace said:
I'm sorry, I just can't buy the fact that those who've spent their lives labeling people in a way that demeans and disenfranchises them should be exempt from being labelled themselves because of fucking feelings.
Click to expand...

So you prefer retributive justice and social vengeance to progress?
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
prag16 said:
Have a backbone. You're not accountable to the gaf hivemind. People here didn't really present any arguments other than the usual "rabblerabblerabble RACIST!" as you pointed out yourself at one point.. that the vast majority of replies were substance-free attack shitposts.

If you truly feel this way (independent of any influence from this thread) and you voted strictly for spite, then yes, you fucked up.

However at the same time a lot of people probably voted for spite, and your case is at least anecdotal evidence that the "tactic" seen here of unilaterally berating everyone as racist is not effective and in fact counterproductive.

EDIT: The post right above mine echoes my point in the last paragraph.
Click to expand...

As long as you ignore the posts that were literally right under his that simply asked him why he voted like that knowing what Trump stood for. Unless asking is considered attacking people now.
Yoritomo said:
So you prefer retributive justice and social vengeance to progress?
Click to expand...

Isn't that the mentality America cultivates? We see it in all aspects of life and much of it from conservatives themselves.

Shout out to the American prison and justice system at large.
 
D

Darryl M R

Member
.JayZii said:
I don't think anyone is surprised by this.

Feeling morally superior is nice, but converting people into not having shitty views is hard and necessary work.
Click to expand...

You post that as if the same side is having the conflict of feeling nice by being racist and having to deal with the hard work of combating racism.
 
J

Jonm1010

Banned
0coolclimate0 said:
There were tons of other responses that you conviently left out. I don't feel like I blew up at all, I guess it depends on how you define "blowing up". And yes I don't like being attacked, who the hell does?
My entire point for coming to this thread was to say the things that made me vote for Trump try to realize the feelings of other people and apologize. I wasn't able to get to any of those because every time I refresh the stupid page on my phone half of the responses are just attacks,a fourth of them were calling me idiot and only the other fourth are real questions.
Click to expand...

People are on edge, upset and fearful. And you can't blame them, heck I am to an extent as well.

With that said, you are doing what I hope more people can be persuaded to do and that is to rescind their support after some self realization and reflection.

You sound like a good person that made some bad judgements. I think we have all been there. I was not always a well versed liberal. It took years for me to fully get around to challenging underlying assumptions I had ingrained in me from my youth and it wasn't always a one way journey.

I just hope you continue that journey and use your experience to improve your decision making and politics going forward.
 
D

Darryl M R

Member
Eidan said:
We're once again at a place where a person is a hair away from saying "Calling someone racist is just as bad as being racist."
Click to expand...

Is this not it:

Kaladin said:
It may be, but it doesn't advance the conversation beyond name calling. Someone has to be the better person here.
Click to expand...

I'm not looking to advance a conversation with a racist. That is not my obligation. You want the oppressed to educate the oppressor? Because no one is being clear that white liberals need to be doing all of the ground work.
 
C

Cyframe

Member
I attended a predominantly white school that went from 7th to 12th, and I sat at a table with other kids. One kid, in particular, called me a nigger and said that he didn't understand why the word nigger was offensive to Black people. He also said that if he was Black he would be proud to be called a nigger. I sat at that table for 2 weeks trying to prove my humanity to this individual, told him that it hurt me, cried, tried to be his friend, and it did nothing. I did everything white people in this thread told me to do but got no results. I've had very similar encounters when I've dealt with racism and as cordial and as nice as I've been, they've never been convinced.

After two decades+ of personal experience with dealing with racism, I'm not going to coddle anyone who treats me as subhuman and I won't feel bad for using the label of racist for them. I won't.

White people really need to bare the burden for converting racists, not me as a Black person. If a person cannot recognize my humanity I will not show them any empathy. Black people literally led the civil rights era, and collectively have done more outreach than any white person in this thread suggesting that we open up a dialogue. We have been open and we have had hard conversations, and if you can't see that then you suffer from tunnel vision.

Why can't white people talk to other white people? Why am I responsible? Why should I tolerate being called nigger? I have depression and other issues that still leaks from the abuse I've faced. Where is my better place in this world? Why must I sacrifice myself for people who don't care about me?

When it comes to racial progress, I almost feel like people don't get it anymore. And a lot of white people, who say don't call others racist, don't even put in half of the effort I and others put in and they certainly don't live life as a Black person.

White people need to be held accountable for this environment and they need to talk to other white people about it, because I'm not doing it. And me abstain doesn't mean I don't want this world to be better, it means that I and others are weary.
 
V

Vermillion

Banned
Darryl M R said:
Is this not it:



I'm not looking to advance a conversation with a racist. That is not my obligation. You want the oppressed to educate the oppressor? Because no one is being clear that white liberals need to be doing all of the ground work.
Click to expand...

So long as you understand that this doesn't progress *anything* - not just a conversation - that's your right.
 
Ron Mexico

Ron Mexico

Member
QaaQer said:
Much of forum stuff is just point scoring and trying to best other posters, which works against understanding. Forums are really bad at fostering empathy, nuance, and allowing dissent.

*. *. *.

I just picked up a book called The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion. I'm hoping it will give me some insight into why many people refuse to talk to each other. or when they do, it's just shouting.
Click to expand...

Agreed on the medium being far from an ideal place for nuance and that extends far beyond anything even mentioned in this thread.

That said, and I hope to not derail things, I'm not terribly comfortable with the idea that voting for a candidate means you're unequivocally in favor of every policy that candidate stands for.

I voted Clinton, but if the threshold to my vote being "correct" would be to agree with every single stance she had, I would have had to stay home. I did not agree with her in terms of banking reform (went into way more detail elsewhere, can do again if needed) and I'm not particularly in favor of a no-fly zone over Syria.

Rather, she was the best choice for me as to what was made available.

That is by no means giving a Trump supporter any kind of carte blanche either. Rather, the lack of nuance is a shame, even if it's primarily fueled by frustration and fear in the present. I'm an idealist and I don't hind behind that. For that reason, it's still my belief that anyone who aligns themselves 100% behind any idea, party, what have you, without first thinking critically, is a sheep.

If you walked into your voting booth last Tuesday and voted all down one column because you know who each candidate was and what they stood for, I applaud you. If you voted all down one column because of the (R) or (D) at the end of their name and wouldn't know either candidate if you fell over them, sorry, that's inexcusable no matter which column it was.
 
E

Eidan

Member
Vermillion said:
So long as you understand that this doesn't progress *anything* - not just a conversation - that's your right.
Click to expand...

Luckily for me I'm not the one stuck having conversations with these people. You all tell me how gently explaining to your racist relatives why racism is bad goes during Thanksgiving.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Henkka said:
You can say 0coolclimate0 was irrational for voting for Trump out of spite, sure. But people are irrational, and you kinda have to take that into account when trying to sell your candidate. If he felt that the other side was full of obnoxious assholes constantly calling his family and friends deplorable, it's not particularly surprising he voted the way he did. To say that the liberal left has zero responsibility for causing this reaction is not helpful.
Click to expand...
BS. So much for personal responsibility huh? If someone is behaving irrationally, it's not the fault of the people calling the behaviour irrational.
 
D

dreams

Member
White people love this kind of shit, because it means they can sit back and let POC do the hard work as per usual.
 
C

cdyhybrid

Member
If people spent half the time they spend trying to explain how this doesn't help to actually try and educate these people we'd be a lot better off.
 
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