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Fez's dev to japanese developers: "your games just suck"
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Don't even bother discussing this with people of low intelligence. It's not worth your time. I don't like most games you have mentioned but there are some japanese games that I liked (mgs4, demons souls, binary domain, resi 5, dmc4 and so on). Some games are objectively very good like Street Fighter 4 and Ninetendo stuff, I just don't like it.
Rahxephon91
Banned
I did my own research and it happens to be true that you are wrong.
It surprises you that on Neogaf, a hardcore gamer forum featuring a good amount of members who are aware and like games such as Demon Souls, Valkryia Chronicles, and Yakuza take issue with his comments?
Neogaf.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It really is ridiculous. People are fucking retarded these days.
Come out in defense of something and you are a white knight or a defense force. Attack something and be praised for being an epic troll.
Some really stupid people out there, really. Thankfully, they aren't in the majority here on NeoGAF.
Except when it's not true at all and is just insulting?
Come on man, you've got a fucking Homefront avatar. How can you slag anyone about bad games?
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
It's not like "western games look boring" isn't controversial.
SomeOneInaHat
Member
No racism here, just a man and his observations.
In his defense quality levels, Western appeal, of Eastern titles have plummeted over the years. There are exceptions of course, because nobody likes a blanket statement, there are still premium game-stuffs coming from our Eastern developers. Too many Eastern developers are trying to grasp for the Western audience, but seem to be misinformed about what grabs "Joe-schmoe America". Fuck you quick time events!
I'm not one to join squabbles over personal preference (As seen by the brevity of this post), but people are getting out of hand with his answer to a question. Boycott if you guys want, but I've followed Fez development longer than I'd like to admit, the game looks fantastic.
ThisisNeoGaf.gif and all that jazz...
Gaf would be the most racist forum on the planet.
Seraphinianus
Banned
i would probably like the site more if "trolling," "white knight," and "defense force" were all banned, considering all 3 generally just serve to create more off-the-rails drama and arguments to the point where the original topic is buried under 15 feet of rubble. Then again, maybe that's supposed to be for our entertainment...
Thank goodness. You're off the hook then.Entirely tongue-in-cheek, dood.
Rahxephon91
Banned
And while dudebro is also over used, it's not like those types of comments will go uncontested either on GAF.
Zoe
Member
Example?
That article is pretty much just a paraphrasing of the article in the OP + Fish's follow-up comments on Twitter.
Realllllllllly sucks seeing some regular posters I see around alot, agree with such an ignorant blanket statement, and the equally ignorant and inconsiderate manner that it was issued under.
VeryGooster
Banned
If someone simply said "Modern Japanese games? Your games suck!" on here, someone in the midst of "Agreed!" or "Wrong!" answers would call the person out to explain their stance on the matter, because it at least provides discussion over what is otherwise an ignorant and generalizing statement (much like "ThisisNeoGaf.gif"). The guy made an ignorant and generalizing statement at a venue like the GDC to a Japanese developer in person without providing any discussion on it. Then when people start calling him out on it on Twitter he just shows himself to be a jackass, anyway.
I can't even tell if people here saying "Well they DO suck!" are purposely missing the point or what.
wolfmat
Confirmed Asshole
I like 3 relatively current Japanese games. That would be Ghost Trick, Lost Odyssey and Tekken 6.
From where I stand, this is not about defending Japanese games. Either they defend themselves by putting out quality product, or they go under, and that's just the way it goes.
However, it's not right to tell a guy from Japan that all Japanese games suck for a myriad of reasons. One being that obviously, Fish hasn't played them all. It's just not even remotely possible. He really doesn't actually know. Just as you don't know, or anyone does. I suppose that's why MetaCritic exists.
So shitting on ALL games from Japan, which means shitting on ALL people making games in Japan right now, without any kind of substancial evidence or at least a minimum of tact, just shows that he digs being the asshole in the room and doesn't really care about being ignorant as long as he's getting a blurb out.
And that's completely indefensible.
He could've made a point that would've been worth making. Like, "AAA games from Japan I've looked at had this-and-that flawed approach over the last 5 years, and here's the way in which AAA Western games in the same time period managed not being awful". You know, compare apples with apples, don't generalize, don't be rude, take the professional route, lay out your thought process BEFORE coming to a conclusion instead of farting out some statement to then improvise until it sounds like you sorta backed your shit up.
"YO BUT I LIKED ZELDA Y'KNOW" sweet dude
From the Indie Soapbox session at GDC this year:
Hit the nail on the head, and it wasn't even related to Fish's comments I believe.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/164701/GDC_2012_10_indies_10_ways_to_think_outside_the_box.php
Hit the nail on the head, and it wasn't even related to Fish's comments I believe.
Rahxephon91
Banned
You're ok with crap?
Yeah I'm ok with a poster who just attempted to discredit anyone who is "defending" their tastes. yeah those posters are just doing it out of pre-conditioned programming. Yep I agree they just feel the need to defend, like lams to the slaughter. Oh no, not like me.
I also agree in an idiotic statement like "most things are garbage". I mean I probably ccan't even attempt to articulate why I feel like this, so it's all garbage. I also make up random statements that don't have any merit and are pretty un-measurable. Most people don't like the good Japanese games? Who desicdes whats the good ones are, huh? And who are you to say? Fuck it! It's all garbage and people don't like it.
But yeah I agree this person is factually correct and everyone else is wrong. They just don't want to give in.
The last part almost sounds like the DMC guy.
"The posters here want love Phil's point, but they won't admit it".
Yeah I'm ok with a poster who just attempted to discredit anyone who is "defending" their tastes. yeah those posters are just doing it out of pre-conditioned programming. Yep I agree they just feel the need to defend, like lams to the slaughter. Oh no, not like me.
I also agree in an idiotic statement like "most things are garbage". I mean I probably ccan't even attempt to articulate why I feel like this, so it's all garbage. I also make up random statements that don't have any merit and are pretty un-measurable. Most people don't like the good Japanese games? Who desicdes whats the good ones are, huh? And who are you to say? Fuck it! It's all garbage and people don't like it.
But yeah I agree this person is factually correct and everyone else is wrong. They just don't want to give in.
The last part almost sounds like the DMC guy.
"The posters here want love Phil's point, but they won't admit it".
la flama blanca
Banned
Did the fact that he was completely rude and inconsiderate despite his personal opinion come to mind? If he wrote this in a blog, there wouldn't really be this many pages in this thread would there? Jeez man, you see that? That thing? Flying way over your head? It's the fucking point.
Seraphinianus
Banned
They both have sports avatars, so that means they must agree on blanket statements!
why yes, I just came back from the meeting where they decided every person in japan agreed on what they thought about everything and that was one of the topics
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
Pretty much.
Rahxephon91
Banned
I have an anime avatar. So I'm also a weaboo.
Edit-I'm not sure if I read that correctly. Do you think I'm making my own assumptions about the two posters based on the avatars? I didn't even notice the avatars, so it never crossed my mine. And it was really just a jumping off point to go against the 1st post. Still, there is some assumption that the 2nd poster agrees with the 1st, then again he did say he did.
By gamers in Japan, yes. By the INDUSTRY? No. And that's the distinction here. If a Japanese developer came out and said this in an equally crass manner, I would take equal objection to it.
Glorious_Paradox
Member
Wow, what an idiot. Massive loss of respect there for the douchebag now.
If you think Japanese game are garbage it means you haven't been paying attention, and you're probably too arrogant to make anything worthwhile anyway. Because of this, expectations for Fez have now been shot up x100000000000. It needs to be better than Mario, Zelda and Metroid combined for me to accept his shitty attitude, and there's no chance in hell that's ever going to happen.
If you think Japanese game are garbage it means you haven't been paying attention, and you're probably too arrogant to make anything worthwhile anyway. Because of this, expectations for Fez have now been shot up x100000000000. It needs to be better than Mario, Zelda and Metroid combined for me to accept his shitty attitude, and there's no chance in hell that's ever going to happen.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Not sure if Ultros avatar is weeaboo enough.
Rahxephon91
Banned
I'm 99% sure you are a jrpg fanboy because of it. My research you see..
Pyccko
Member
I seem to remember hearing someone talk about how that was basically the position taken by the developers as well as the public, but it was mainly during the 80s to early 90s, when the most innovation in the western development scene was based primarily around the PC and most of their console efforts were lackluster. But as western development grew on consoles that ideology became one of the reasons Japanese game design has been seen to stagnate by some, and now Japan is in an integrate-or-die position.
BUT I COULD BE TALKING OUT MY ASS, I DUNNO I still like a lot of Japanese games so whatev
It's a tongue-in-cheek comment about blanket statements. They wrote generalities about Japanese games with about as much depth as my comment.
Dog Problems
Banned
It's the lack of professionalism and respect to fellow developers that puts people off. Apparently he followed up his comment at the panel after saying it so I don't think it's as bad as I first thought, personally.
It's obvious he needs better people skills and hopefully the success of Fez helps him grow as a person, as well as a developer.
wolfmat
Confirmed Asshole
I suppose everyone has his own reasons.
For me, it's about these indefensible attitudes popping up left and right in the last weeks, and the overall juvenile atmosphere in general. You have the SFxT debacle with gamers effectively enabling and backing sexism in a professional context, you have the Fish debacle with a developer being extremely rude and unfair to a whole nation, and multiple people saying "I'm okay with this", you have racist and homophobic talk on XBL and Microsoft not being able to weed that out. It would be great if we could figure out how to get a constructive approach going that deals with this generally inexcusable behavior. Until that happens, I think it's important to point it out, to discuss it and to reflect on it.
Don't know if it'll achieve anything, but at the very least, it makes a difference in terms of sales on my part (no point in XBL Gold, no point in playing new fighting games outside of friendly settings, definitely no buy regarding Fez).
His opinion isn't what people are getting steamed over. It's that he insulted an entire nation of talented developers in a professional environment. People don't want to support his games because we don't need people like him in the industry.
But a lot of posters saw all these reactions as an opportunity to throw blatantly ignorant statements.
My only problems with his statement are how he said it and the venue. He shouldn't have been so raw, and he certainly shouldn't have said it that way in front of others, who were obviously going to pile on like idiots.
His actual message, though, is spot-on: Japanese games largely do suck. Is that a generality? Sure, but other than the occasional Nintendo game or Sony game, the generality pretty much sticks.
I seem to remember hearing someone talk about how that was basically the position taken by the developers as well as the public, but it was mainly during the 80s to early 90s, when the most innovation in the western development scene was based primarily around the PC and most of their console efforts were lackluster. But as western development grew on consoles that ideology became one of the reasons Japanese game design has been seen to stagnate by some, and now Japan is in an integrate-or-die position.
BUT I COULD BE TALKING OUT MY ASS, I DUNNO I still like a lot of Japanese games so whatev
The most I ever recall about Japanese developers talking about Western game design is that it was flawed in some respects. Not awful or "crap", not unplayable, but that the industry in the West had design issues and philosophies that made Western games less palatable to a worldwide audience, which the Japanese were able to capitalize on. And in the 80s or 90s, this wasn't exactly a false statement. Debatable, for sure, but they didn't speak in absolutes, either.
TheShampion
Member
By that same token, most games all around the world suck. There is enough shovelware in every territory to lower the average of quality to horrible everywhere. The fact that he singled out Japan is just a little odd.
Though reading up on his comments, he seems dissapointed because Japanese games aren't like Nintendo in the 80's. I am not sure if any video games anywhere can hold up to that standard.
Well since some people are ok with this, I personally can't wait to see it becomes the norm to make statements like that in public so we could turn real life into youtube comments
"Naughtydog sucks! Guess what I've played all the uncharted games and THEY SUCK"
"No YOUR game sucks! That's right! Because it's like, my opinion man"
"u mad bro?"
*crowd cheers*
"Naughtydog sucks! Guess what I've played all the uncharted games and THEY SUCK"
"No YOUR game sucks! That's right! Because it's like, my opinion man"
"u mad bro?"
*crowd cheers*
Pyccko
Member
Fair enough, I certainly can't speak to this with any real expertise. Though it's funny that those issues with western game design mirror things I've seen other (certainly more tactful than this fuckin' guy) western developers say about Japan's game design now.
WHOEVER WINS, WE LOSE
cosmicblizzard
Banned
I do find it funny that Sturgeon's Law never applies to the west in these discussions.
I wish people would stop stating their opinion as if it's ome sort of universally agreed upon fact.
I do my best to hate everything equally.
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