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Sonic Adventure 2 HD |OT| googoo g'joob googoo g'joob

Kokonoe

Banned
E.G.G.M.A.N. is and will always be the definitive Eggman theme.

Thanks for the info, but I was doing this already. It's just the experience in general that baffles me. Everything about it is terrible. I mean, I love SA2 but I don't remember it having parts that look like they were thrown together in ten minutes like with this.

Twinkle Park has better driving in my opinion, but that kart mode is wonky in SA2. Still kinda fun to play with friends.
 

ShadiWulf

Member
Takashi Iizuka-san SA2 interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2St0S9eLFhg

nowhere as good as the NiGHTS one, but they talk about how they got lots of parking tickets in san fransisco, and how they made sure the US audience knows that Dr Robotnik is now Eggman. Also talk about how Sonic is western oriented franchise rather then Japanese.
 

Rlan

Member
Both the NiGHTS and SA2 videos feel like they're only about half of each interview. They kind of just stop.
 

drspeedy

Member
Takashi Iizuka-san SA2 interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2St0S9eLFhg

nowhere as good as the NiGHTS one, but they talk about how they got lots of parking tickets in san fransisco, and how they made sure the US audience knows that Dr Robotnik is now Eggman. Also talk about how Sonic is western oriented franchise rather then Japanese.

Interesting.... Good insights, but they essentially say what I think we all figured, but if I may paraphrase:
"We knew we only had 3 types of gameplay, so we just doubled down and threw a second character in the same environment, lol. Sonic/Shadow, Tails/Eggman, Knuckles/Rouge. Rinse, wash, repeat!"

"We didn't think people would want to replay this game, at least without something like Chocobo racing, so we made Chao. "
 

qq more

Member
I'm under the impression that the reasons why Tails's, Shadow's and Rouge's levels are inferior to their counterpart's levels because they weren't suppose to be playable. SA2 originally had just Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman.

Sonic's levels were usually exciting while Shadow's were lesser versions of Sonic's stages (Radical Highway and Sky Rail are bland levels. There, I said it.).

Eggman's levels were usually pretty good while Tails' levels were just... awful for different reasons.

Knuckles' levels were terrible but Rouge's levels managed to be WORSE.

This is coming from my replay a few years ago. My opinion was somewhat different back when SA2 first came out. I wonder if I'll still feel the same way as I do now whenever I replay this game again.

EDIT: I just noticed the interview post. I knew I should of have caught up with the thread, dammit.
 

Kokonoe

Banned
Yeah, SEGA did a pretty good job with this port, hopefully they'll get around to a Sonic Adventure one sometime. Can't wait for the PC release, 1080p!!!
 

TheOGB

Banned
A re-release of a re-release of a re-release?
ALIENS2.gif



It had better retroactively destroy the previous release and replace it for free if you already owned it, because I am very reluctant to spend any more money on Sonic Adventure DX.
 

Kokonoe

Banned
A re-release of a re-release of a re-release?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VBq-SwGDtDY/T0QEN0MTyNI/AAAAAAAAAKc/UK9xWXBa7Ck/s1600/ALIENS2.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]

I heard you like Sonic Adventure, so we ported a port of a port of a port

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/t0Xqy.jpg
 

Blueblur1

Member
Takashi Iizuka-san SA2 interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2St0S9eLFhg

nowhere as good as the NiGHTS one, but they talk about how they got lots of parking tickets in san fransisco, and how they made sure the US audience knows that Dr Robotnik is now Eggman. Also talk about how Sonic is western oriented franchise rather then Japanese.

Both the NiGHTS and SA2 videos feel like they're only about half of each interview. They kind of just stop.

These are terrible in comparison to the Sonic CD video. The SA2 video consisted of just aimless talking.
 
These are terrible in comparison to the Sonic CD video. The SA2 video consisted of just aimless talking.

The editing in the SA2 video is all over the place, too. Like if the guy's talking about a specific object existing in the game, you should at least, like... show it. I am pretty sure this is what he was referring to:

uvebt.png


Because that's the kind of vehicle meter maids drive around.

Instead, the video cuts to footage of something completely unrelated. I appreciate the effort made to interview them about the creation of the game, but I expected a lot more.
 

TheOGB

Banned
Just finished the Hero Story

...This game sucks. Faceplants the moment they get to the desert. Everything from that point on is infuriating.

I appreciated SA1 more when I replayed it sans nostalgia goggles. 1/3 of the way through this, though, and I'm annoyed with it.


I will say, though, that despite myself, I could never "hate" this game. In that sense it's in the same tier as Heroes, but 1-2 rungs higher up the ladder.
 
Amazing port of a game that has a lot of problems (but I still love it). Looks great, runs smoothly. How I wish SA1 and Crazy Taxi had been treated as well as JSR and SA2. Roll on the next lot of heritage games!
 

TheOGB

Banned
I was always confused why they randomly started a jerking off in that cutscene.

and why every cutscene with Rouge and Knuckles is the same

and why Knuckles leaves the desert to return to the desert

and why Rouge's ears jiggle more than anything else on her
 

Shizzlee

Member
and why Rouge's ears jiggle more than anything else on her

If you ask me, her tits jiggle more. When you use a rocket they jiggle. When you start running they jiggle. When you jump they jiggle. When you land they jiggle. When you finish a level they jiggle. WTF sonic team. I noticed all of this shit while going for A Ranks and now I'm traumatized. D:
 
If you ask me, her tits jiggle more. When you use a rocket they jiggle. When you start running they jiggle. When you jump they jiggle. When you land they jiggle. When you finish a level they jiggle. WTF sonic team. I noticed all of this shit while going for A Ranks and now I'm traumatized. D:

So sexy and smooth. She wants your jewels.
 

ChaosXVI

Member
I can't not find this game's story charming, its just the right level of cheesiness to make me laugh instead of cringe...if they ever do go back to a more "involved" story structure, I hope they can manage to achieve this weirdly funny tone.

Also, I don't get the call for Sonic Adventure 3 either...Sonic Adventure 3 was pretty much Sonic 2006 in every way but name. In Crisis City you can even find posters for Chao in Space 3, Chao in Space 1 and 2 posters were located in SA1 and 2 as well.

And even if you don't count that, you have Unleashed, known as World Adventure in Japan. But I guess I can see why SEGA would want to use that name, it would certainly turn a lot of heads in the same way Sonic 4 did when it was first announced (and disappointed everyone).
 

brumx

Member
Sonic Adventure1 was much more colorful not sure what they where thinking when they made SA2 it seems a random. I mean you have to play thru like 4 stages before one shadow level huh?
 
Sonic Adventure1 was much more colorful not sure what they where thinking when they made SA2 it seems a random. I mean you have to play thru like 4 stages before one shadow level huh?

Well, as the story goes, Shadow might not have been originally a playable character, and a great many things in SA2 changed about halfway through development. The way it goes is like this:

lhYOK.jpg

Sonic Adventure 2 as it was originally announced had Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman as playable characters - very likely meant to represent Good (Sonic), Neutral (Knuckles) and Evil (Eggman). Many of the story themes present in the final version of the game were still around - we know from early reports of (still never publicly shown) concept art that Shadow and Rouge were in the game from the beginning, though Sonic Team was clearly playing with the concept that Sonic Adventure 2 was going to be a very dark, serious sort of game (various pieces concept art for Shadow described him as having full-body scars, or a missing eye, or missing appendages). The game was to have branching storyline pathways - a concept later resurrected for Shadow the Hedgehog in 2005.

The problem was that Sonic Team refused to confirm whether or not Tails was in the game, and apparently there was enough people out there who pestered Sonic Team at conventions and such about Tails not being in the game that Sonic Team announced they would be going back and putting in more "friendly faces" in the game, notably Tails. While not directly confirmed, there are suggestions that this signaled a pretty significant change in the whole entire design of Sonic Adventure 2. For example, around this time is where they went from the above "light vs. dark" logo style to this more colorful (almost garish) stylization:

qdzix.png


The branching pathway system was scrapped. Tails and likely Amy Rose were shoe-horned in (think about it: Amy contributes almost nothing to the story), and the overall plot was lightened up a little bit. But most importantly, the roster of playable characters went from 3 to 6, and the "team rivalry" system was born. Shadow was now playable, as was Rouge, to make up for the fact that Tails was now Dr. Eggman's rival.

It is somewhat likely that Shadow, Rouge and Tails were given levels that were intended for the branching path system. Whereas you would be presented with a choice that would either lead to LEVEL A or LEVEL B, now LEVEL A would be for Sonic and LEVEL B would be for Shadow. Unfortunately for Shadow, there probably weren't a lot of LEVEL B's to go around.

tl;dr: They hastily re-tooled a pretty significant portion of the game somewhat late in development all because fans were whining about Tails not being in the game originally.

I was hoping the "Making Of" featurette would help shine some more light on that stuff but instead we get stories about parking meters. :\
 

TheOGB

Banned
I'm not sure how people would take it if the Making Of lead to the revelation that it's all fans'/Tails' fault

I'd find it hilarious and fascinating
 

qq more

Member
I can't tell if I like the change or not. On one hand, the gameplay sounded far more interesting (and it likely meant no stupid "SONIC THE FIRST STAGE THEN KNUCKLES THE NEXT") but on the other hand I'm glad the story wasn't darker and dumber than it already was. :l Leaning towards the original design of the game.
 

Ein Bear

Member
Lots of interesting stuff.

Thanks for that, was a really interesting read. I remember 'Where's Tails!?' being a big thing online back in the day. The change in development definitely makes sense... Pretty sure early screenshots show Sonic in Sky Rail don't they?

I'm enjoying playing through this again so much, it's been a while since I revisited SA2. It still probably has the best soundtrack in gaming.

I unlocked Green Hill Zone back in the day... Feel like I'd be letting my 11 year old self down if I didn't do it again. :p
 
I can't tell if I like the change or not. On one hand, the gameplay sounded far more interesting (and it likely meant no stupid "SONIC THE FIRST STAGE THEN KNUCKLES THE NEXT") but on the other hand I'm glad the story wasn't darker and dumber than it already was. :l Leaning towards the original design of the game.

I'm leaning towards the original design of the game just since the focus on 3 rather than 6 characters could have led to the more time being spent on making the levels more open-ended, polished and more fun. On the other hand, SA2's story is already pointlessly dark, so something even more faux-'deep' would've turned while still bad still likeable in a campy, probably unintentionally way cutscenes such as WE'VE GOT TO TRACK DOWN THE PRESIDENT'S LIMO into S'06-levels of painfully awful, dead-serious cutscenes.

Also agree entirely with SwiftSketcher at the beginning of this page. I don't think it's aged well at all, but SA1 is still the closest the series got to what I think would make a 'proper' (not necessarily good; I think Colors and Generations are legitimately good games) 3D Sonic game. Sucks that while more polished SA2 seemed to go in completely wrong direction.
 

Ein Bear

Member
Also agree entirely with SwiftSketcher at the beginning of this page. I don't think it's aged well at all, but SA1 is still the closest the series got to what I think would make a 'proper' (not necessarily good; I think Colors and Generations are legitimately good games) 3D Sonic game. Sucks that while more polished SA2 seemed to go in completely wrong direction.

To me, the core Sonic gameplay in the Adventure games is a much better attempt at 'Sonic in 3D' than the post-Unleashed style. Colours and Generations are definitely more polished, but they remove a lot of input from the player and feel too on-rails. It always strikes me as Sega just giving up on trying to make the gameplay work and stripping it down to be more basic.

I blame the troubles the series has had squarely on Sonic Heroes, and it's terrible change to the Renderware engine. If they'd used SA2 as a base and carried on polishing it, I think we'd have seen some really awesome games. Unfortunately Heroes made the characters handle like they were running around on ice whilst drunk off their faces, which is still an issue even in Generations IMO.
 
Bear you did essentially just call Generations and Colours Basic with stripped down gameplay compared to Adventure 2 right? what madness are you unleashing upon my brain?!
 

Xav

Member

Ah yes I remember this logo, it triggered some memories. Great piece by the way, totally explains why I ended up hating Sonic Adventure 2 compared to the original despite being a far more polished game. The Sonic, Knuckles & Eggman stages always made sense to me, Shadow having like 4 stages, Tails inside that mech and Rouge being anything beyond cut-scene material didn't.
I do remember being one of the people complaining that Tails wasn't around, they should of made the game with Sonic, Tails & Knuckles playable. None the less I hate what became of the final game, such a bloated all over the place experience. It's a shame because despite Sonic Colours & Generations being better overall games I'd say the Sonic stages in adventure 2 are the best attempt at 3D Sonic. As mentioned Colours & Generations feel "on-rails" by comparison.
Anyone interested by Sega1991's post should check this out. It's a Sonic Adventure 2 demo that came with Phantasy Star Online. The lack of Tails in the video at the end of the demo is what got me angry back in 2000.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybdEXBWaRLc
 

Ein Bear

Member
Bear you did essentially just call Generations and Colours Basic with stripped down gameplay compared to Adventure 2 right? what madness are you unleashing upon my brain?!

Well yeah, they kind of are. In both styles of gameplay, you're basically running forward, grinding on stuff and homing attack linking between enemies.

Unleashed/Colours/Generations essentially automate most of it for you. The game will just feed you onto a grind rail as a natural part of the level, for example, whilst SA2 usually required you to actually make the jump yourself, whilst also maintaining your speed by crouching on the straights and easing up for the bends (which racked up more points). Then you've got stuff like the post-Unleashed games essentially copping-out on making a '3D Sonic' game by switching to 2D for the tricker platforming sections.

I'm not saying the newer games are worse or anything, the Adventures are clunky as hell and Colours/Generations are definitely better games. My point was more that it's a shame they stripped the gameplay down somewhat instead of polishing what they already had.
 

Tsunamo

Member
Both the NiGHTS and SA2 videos feel like they're only about half of each interview. They kind of just stop.
Yeah, that bothered me, the Jet Set Radio one was much longer in comparison. At least we still got a couple of things out of them though.
 
Well yeah, they kind of are. In both styles of gameplay, you're basically running forward, grinding on stuff and homing attack linking between enemies.

Unleashed/Colours/Generations essentially automate most of it for you. The game will just feed you onto a grind rail as a natural part of the level, for example, whilst SA2 usually required you to actually make the jump yourself, whilst also maintaining your speed by crouching on the straights and easing up for the bends (which racked up more points). Then you've got stuff like the post-Unleashed games essentially copping-out on making a '3D Sonic' game by switching to 2D for the tricker platforming sections.

I'm not saying the newer games are worse or anything, the Adventures are clunky as hell and Colours/Generations are definitely better games. My point was more that it's a shame they stripped the gameplay down somewhat instead of polishing what they already had.

Colours is a more difficult one to judge, they actively went with a 2D angle for the most part making a lot of the comparisons across both games here kind of skewered. But with a far greater variety of platforming sections and wisp additions I can't see it as a more automated game at all (well except that one bit in Starlight Carnival).
The rails point is a fair one as future games just made rails a way to travel from point a to b, throwing out the crouch and leaning angle with rail swapping to avoid hazards.

But the main meat of both packages is the whole running forward, homing attacking antics. Even if say Generations makes immediate small movements clunky as hell it's certainly not a sign of being stripped down, not when these actual sections tend to play a lot more varied in themselves, throwing in sonic's stomp, slide and wall jump with far greater route variation in the stages themselves which are longer as well for that matter, I don't see anything removed here, perhaps a few things streamlined for greater flow (homing onto rails and the rails themselves).

I can certainly see liking that Sonic is more easily controlled, having that level of control would be incredibly useful for the manual jumping sections of modern Crisis City in Generations but regardless I can't see this as a simplified game, especially when Adventure 2 is the one where most speed stages are narrow, linear, and lack much input from the player most of the time as far as actually progressing forward, stages like Green Forest and Metal Harbour are as simple as 3D Sonic gets really.

Don't get me wrong, while I get the angle you're coming from, say Unleashed has Sonic in a constant state of go-go-go, run, drift, jump, lock onto the swing bar, jump off towards enemy chain, homing attack times 3, move near and lock onto rail, BOOOST.
A similar chain of events in SA2 (replace drift with one of those trick ramps) would be a more slower paced affair yet the level of control over your character in the air between these moves would be greater and the difference between hitting that last rail and completely missing it. But this isn't so much the game being stripped down, as i've said earlier, streamlining seems more like a better choice of words.
 

Ein Bear

Member
Colours is a more difficult one to judge, they actively went with a 2D angle for the most part making a lot of the comparisons across both games here kind of skewered. But with a far greater variety of platforming sections and wisp additions I can't see it as a more automated game at all (well except that one bit in Starlight Carnival).
The rails point is a fair one as future games just made rails a way to travel from point a to b, throwing out the crouch and leaning angle with rail swapping to avoid hazards.

But the main meat of both packages is the whole running forward, homing attacking antics. Even if say Generations makes immediate small movements clunky as hell it's certainly not a sign of being stripped down, not when these actual sections tend to play a lot more varied in themselves, throwing in sonic's stomp, slide and wall jump with far greater route variation in the stages themselves which are longer as well for that matter, I don't see anything removed here, perhaps a few things streamlined for greater flow (homing onto rails and the rails themselves).

I can certainly see liking that Sonic is more easily controlled, having that level of control would be incredibly useful for the manual jumping sections of modern Crisis City in Generations but regardless I can't see this as a simplified game, especially when Adventure 2 is the one where most speed stages are narrow, linear, and lack much input from the player most of the time as far as actually progressing forward, stages like Green Forest and Metal Harbour are as simple as 3D Sonic gets really.

Don't get me wrong, while I get the angle you're coming from, say Unleashed has Sonic in a constant state of go-go-go, run, drift, jump, lock onto the swing bar, jump off towards enemy chain, homing attack times 3, move near and lock onto rail, BOOOST.
A similar chain of events in SA2 (replace drift with one of those trick ramps) would be a more slower paced affair yet the level of control over your character in the air between these moves would be greater and the difference between hitting that last rail and completely missing it. But this isn't so much the game being stripped down, as i've said earlier, streamlining seems more like a better choice of words.

Actually yeah you're right, you phrased it much better than I did. 'Streamlined' is definitely a better way of putting it. I prefer the greater level of control that the Adventure games offer (try making Sonic do something other than run forwards in a post-Unleashed game, he handles dreadfully), but you're right - simplifying isn't really a fair way of describing it. It's a shame Sonic 2006 turned out to be... Sonic 2006, since on paper it's pretty much perfect. Sonic's levels are a mix of SA1/2 style gameplay and the Unleashed-style Mach Speed sections.

They should do that again, only, y'know. Not shit.
 
Yeah, but like... Rouge could have done that. Or Tails

I'd expect it was originally Rouge in both scenes, given it was already established that Rouge was reminding Shadow of Maria (they both have eyelashes!!!!!!11!1).

Assuming that scene was originally in the game at all. There's a lot of SA2 that doesn't really make a ton of sense unless you read "supplemental material" (particularly in the Dark Story).

Sonic Team actually published "Rouge's Report", back when they were personally responsible for creating the Japanese-language strategy guides for their games. The goal of this report was to clear up what exactly the fuck was up with Shadow, Maria, and Gerald. Think about it: The game never actually explains that Maria was shot, what Gerald was working on or why, or what the Biolizard was supposed to be. All of that came out of Rouge's Report (and later the Sonic X adaptation).

Assuming that Rouge and Shadow weren't originally playable characters (there's no confirmation of that; it is just something that makes sense given initial media + the fact Tails was added late in development), then 2/3rds of "Dark Story" would've had to be written kind of last-minute compared to the rest of the game in order to give those characters more to do.

There's no telling what exactly was added or changed without getting in to speculative fanfiction-y territory though, and nobody wants that.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
I'd expect it was originally Rouge in both scenes, given it was already established that Rouge was reminding Shadow of Maria (they both have eyelashes!!!!!!11!1).
HOW IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE

I don't even...

...

what

TheOGB said:
I'm not sure how people would take it if the Making Of lead to the revelation that it's all fans'/Tails' fault

I'd find it hilarious and fascinating
I learned about the price of parking tickets in San Francisco. It was as educational as the NiGHTS one. :p
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
I wonder if they plan on porting Sonic Heroes to PSN and XBLA. That would be interesting.
 

TheOGB

Banned
Actually yeah you're right, you phrased it much better than I did. 'Streamlined' is definitely a better way of putting it. I prefer the greater level of control that the Adventure games offer (try making Sonic do something other than run forwards in a post-Unleashed game, he handles dreadfully), but you're right - simplifying isn't really a fair way of describing it. It's a shame Sonic 2006 turned out to be... Sonic 2006, since on paper it's pretty much perfect. Sonic's levels are a mix of SA1/2 style gameplay and the Unleashed-style Mach Speed sections.

They should do that again, only, y'know. Not shit.
This is where I'm at now. I see why people say Sonic's levels in SA2 are best. I personally never "envisioned" Sonic's transition to 3D myself, so I didn't/don't care how the levels were/are, I just wanted/want them solid and fun. Now having both Adventures and Unleashed/Colors/Generations styles fresh in my head, I will say I would greatly enjoy if they tried, what is basically, the Sonic 06 approach again--without the suck.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
I haaaaate the mach speed sections in Sonic 2006. And Sonic usually says some dumb crap during them. :V

I dunno. 3D Platforming depending on the camera and I don't mix well often. I get rather nauseous so I never had a huge attachment to them. That's the problem Sega has, though. They have several splits in their fanbase that they feel the need to cater to and it ends up being a mess or it ends up being something that half of their fanbase doesn't want. Some people like the pure platforming portions of Sonic / score attacking, so they like the Genesis games or they like Colours. Some people like the 3D platforming so they really like the Adventure games. Some people like the hybrid style so they like the last three games. Some people like it as a racing game / time attack game or something so they like parts of the last three games and maybe the Rush games. So it's hard to satisfy a lot of people. If Sega could afford to develop several games to cater to the several splits in their fanbases, that would be great, but we know they won't.

I wonder if they plan on porting Sonic Heroes to PSN and XBLA. That would be interesting.
why would you want to play that

...outside of the awesomeness of What I'm Made Of.

I really hate how I get dizzy and shit from the hunting stages still omg..
I usually take a Gravol when I play games like this. I had to do it to push myself through Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 as well.
 
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