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RPGs with amazing progression systems
- Thread starter prwxv3
- Start date
Randolph Freelander
Member
I kind of like the vanilla "+1 to strength/wisdom/constitution and go add a skill." Those are easy to comprehend.
But I did eventually grow to enjoy the sphere grid in FFX.
But I did eventually grow to enjoy the sphere grid in FFX.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I prefer games with progression systems that vastly change how combat is resolved over the course of the game. This is apparent I think in a lot of Japanese action games and RPG's. Normally as you get these abilties they flow into your combat routine so it feels like a natural extension of the system you played with at the start. It really feels like the character is "ascending to the next level" so to speak over the course of the game.
I really don't like games that have disjointed combat and unappealing progression systems.
What I mean by this is games where their idea of progression is unlocking some kind of upgrade that gives you something like +0.5% chance to crit! How exciting.
I do see this in quite a few western games (not to knock on western games, it's just an observation) and MMO's in general. To me this reeks of lazy design.
I really don't like games that have disjointed combat and unappealing progression systems.
What I mean by this is games where their idea of progression is unlocking some kind of upgrade that gives you something like +0.5% chance to crit! How exciting.
I do see this in quite a few western games (not to knock on western games, it's just an observation) and MMO's in general. To me this reeks of lazy design.
I haven't played most of the games that are being mentioned here, but I did play FFX and I thought it was a complete mess.
I don't see a problem with simpler progression systems. What I generally want out of them is the ability to try out different roles/builds that feel fresh. What I don't want to do in an RPG is play optimization games with the numbers.
FFX is the above but with a dash of batshit crazy. How does a non-magic user end up casting the strongest spell in the game for 1 MP cost? I don't know. I think I understand what they were trying to do but the customization had the weirdest loopholes and none of it felt like I was making a sensible character build.
Really, what I want out of a leveling system is just the following:
-Various character builds that offer different styles of play based on different choices
-Balanced choices so that I can pick which one sounds fun and not worry about dooming my character
-Easy to understand choices at the point in time which they have to be made because the choices are meaningless if I don't understand them
One more thing is that I find that sometimes WRPGs have more satisfying progression systems than JRPGs because many of them contain several out of battle skills that affect how you do quests. That adds another dimension of specialization without causing the game balance to break.
I also like Pokemon's progression system, but that's mainly the fascination I have with how functionally different a competitive mon-style RPG is from any other kind of RPG. It's more challenging to compare it to other RPGs.
I don't see a problem with simpler progression systems. What I generally want out of them is the ability to try out different roles/builds that feel fresh. What I don't want to do in an RPG is play optimization games with the numbers.
FFX is the above but with a dash of batshit crazy. How does a non-magic user end up casting the strongest spell in the game for 1 MP cost? I don't know. I think I understand what they were trying to do but the customization had the weirdest loopholes and none of it felt like I was making a sensible character build.
Really, what I want out of a leveling system is just the following:
-Various character builds that offer different styles of play based on different choices
-Balanced choices so that I can pick which one sounds fun and not worry about dooming my character
-Easy to understand choices at the point in time which they have to be made because the choices are meaningless if I don't understand them
One more thing is that I find that sometimes WRPGs have more satisfying progression systems than JRPGs because many of them contain several out of battle skills that affect how you do quests. That adds another dimension of specialization without causing the game balance to break.
I also like Pokemon's progression system, but that's mainly the fascination I have with how functionally different a competitive mon-style RPG is from any other kind of RPG. It's more challenging to compare it to other RPGs.
you can beat it on your first playthrough perfectly fine. I know I did.
HiddenWings
Member
I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but I really liked the advancement system in Kingdom Hearts: 358/2 Days. I wasn't fond of the game around that system, but the grid was kind of cool.
The other thing I would talk about is the Job system, which was already mentioned.
The other thing I would talk about is the Job system, which was already mentioned.
CaptainGyro
Banned
Disgaea 2's blew me away. I played that game 17 hours straight just seeing what kind of stuff would happen when I tried to level up my characters.
It's the only game I played in the series, so I don't know how the others stack up
It's the only game I played in the series, so I don't know how the others stack up
ZombiePlatypus
Member
I know it gets a lot of hate, but I really, really love everything about the Sphere Grid in FFX. I couldn't care less about directionless freedom when it comes to growth, so the linearity didn't bother me at all. The presentation, set-up and pacing in that system really gave me a sense of progress that no other RPG has matched.
I see some of you like FFX's sphere grid...
Well, Path of Exile is right up your alley!
This right here. Looks crazy at first glance but offers tons of flexibility.
Edit: just noticed that that is a old version of the tree
The most up to date one is here
As a fan of FFX's progression system I smiled when I saw Path of Exile's
FFX allowed you to wipe the slate clean and build it back exactly how you wanted it, though.
Crackdown 1's upgrade system is probably the best one from this console generation though it's more of an action game.
FFX allowed you to wipe the slate clean and build it back exactly how you wanted it, though.
Crackdown 1's upgrade system is probably the best one from this console generation though it's more of an action game.
Witchfinder General
punched Wheelchair Mike
SMT: Nocturne.
The Demifiend starts off basically weak to everything but by the end of the game with the right stat management and careful acquisition of different Magatama you become a nigh-invincible god.
The Demifiend starts off basically weak to everything but by the end of the game with the right stat management and careful acquisition of different Magatama you become a nigh-invincible god.
Midnight Bliss
Member
I probably should have posted some pictures of examples with my first post but it's always a pleasure to go through game screen shots of games I've enjoyed and loved and post results.
Arcanum
http://i.imgur.com/vxbyZ.jpg
Only one word can describe Arcanum. Heaven. Or maybe it's just that feeling when you make a half ogre that ran away with the circus and uses a 5000 lb rock as a throwing weapon. I need to get a troika tattoo some day. My favorite game in the history of man. If I cannot make a lock picking/smooth talking/semi-dude bro in a game then I will likely go crazy, I love fallout for doing this before troika but I know they had the same people.
System Shock 2
http://i.imgur.com/1NhR1.jpg
And while maybe not the best screen shot of it, there are a few different upgrade stations for the various skill sets and I -love- being able to have full control over that. Every acquired cyber module was like an aphrodisiac.
Ragnarok Online
http://i.imgur.com/CYTPs.jpg
Just one classes skill tree. This game always reminded me of Secret of Mana meets Final Fantasy Tactics meets Diablo 2. Every point was fun to add to a stat or skill, just to see it go up, just to permanently engrave my characters progression by my hand, in an online game, in an mmo where I get to play with others. It felt so good...
Ultima Online
http://i.imgur.com/WONFZ.jpg
Not the full skill list just the crafting section, but seeing a skill increase while taking part in that action while playing the game was just so fun. I was completely addicted to mining and I loved when a vein of ore would explode into my pocket. But being a thief/cook/dead body inspector/archer/bard/animal tamer, I'll never forget those days sailing my personal boat with my pet dragon and being bald and hairless, Recdu Recsu vendor buy bank guards Kal Ort Por. It was made by the same person who made the original Star Wars Galaxies, Raph Koster. I loved making a chunky character in SWG good times.
Etrian Odyssey Series
http://i.imgur.com/Jw6OZ.jpg
One example of a class you have in your party of 5 characters you create. Fun little game that reminded me of Ragnarok Online (even though it was a completely different type of game) simply based on the awesome skill and stat customization and the anime body portraits. Maybe it was all the green that reminded me too.
Titan Quest
http://i.imgur.com/hEvwG.jpg
Probably my favorite Diablo 2 alternative. Sure it doesn't have that amazing necro undead army that D2 has but it's still a lot of fun customizing your character especially since you can multiclass. Plus killing enemies to death so hard they go flying off the screen is always fun.
Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines
http://i.imgur.com/ViC16.jpg
Another amazing game by troika. Just looking at that picture gives me pangs to be able to click on lockpicking and hacking, I click but nothing happens, I am sad. I will be happy again at the thought of climbing through hotel vents and unlocking secret compartments and finding goofy easter eggs in the process while being a vampire when they were the cool kids.
I personally think path of exile had noble intentions but their tree has mostly passive skills hence the name "passive skill tree", there's nothing wrong with it but it's not my cup of tea. I prefer to press a button and get results instead of just getting a teeny tiny boost.
Some other examples that I won't go into detail but will list are...
Morrowind/Elder Scrolls
Diablo 2
Fallout 1 and 2 + series
Divine Divinity
Divinity 2
Final Fantasy Tactics
Tactics Ogre psp
Other examples include
Gothic series
Star Wars Galaxies *pours a mtn dew on the curb side for the disturbance in the force*
Shining Soul 2
The Witcher series
NWN
Deus Ex
Kotor
Maple Story
Mabinogi
Torchlight series
FF12
And to a lesser extent, Guardian Heroes, SMT games, Castle Crashers, Bioshock series. Maybe Infinity Engine games as well. mm I'm sure I'm forgetting plenty but I wish I knew more, you can tell I live for these types of games. I mostly try to list the ones I had fun with and consider to be quality or at least decent. Ah man it's raining again...
Arcanum
http://i.imgur.com/vxbyZ.jpg
Only one word can describe Arcanum. Heaven. Or maybe it's just that feeling when you make a half ogre that ran away with the circus and uses a 5000 lb rock as a throwing weapon. I need to get a troika tattoo some day. My favorite game in the history of man. If I cannot make a lock picking/smooth talking/semi-dude bro in a game then I will likely go crazy, I love fallout for doing this before troika but I know they had the same people.
System Shock 2
http://i.imgur.com/1NhR1.jpg
And while maybe not the best screen shot of it, there are a few different upgrade stations for the various skill sets and I -love- being able to have full control over that. Every acquired cyber module was like an aphrodisiac.
Ragnarok Online
http://i.imgur.com/CYTPs.jpg
Just one classes skill tree. This game always reminded me of Secret of Mana meets Final Fantasy Tactics meets Diablo 2. Every point was fun to add to a stat or skill, just to see it go up, just to permanently engrave my characters progression by my hand, in an online game, in an mmo where I get to play with others. It felt so good...
Ultima Online
http://i.imgur.com/WONFZ.jpg
Not the full skill list just the crafting section, but seeing a skill increase while taking part in that action while playing the game was just so fun. I was completely addicted to mining and I loved when a vein of ore would explode into my pocket. But being a thief/cook/dead body inspector/archer/bard/animal tamer, I'll never forget those days sailing my personal boat with my pet dragon and being bald and hairless, Recdu Recsu vendor buy bank guards Kal Ort Por. It was made by the same person who made the original Star Wars Galaxies, Raph Koster. I loved making a chunky character in SWG good times.
Etrian Odyssey Series
http://i.imgur.com/Jw6OZ.jpg
One example of a class you have in your party of 5 characters you create. Fun little game that reminded me of Ragnarok Online (even though it was a completely different type of game) simply based on the awesome skill and stat customization and the anime body portraits. Maybe it was all the green that reminded me too.
Titan Quest
http://i.imgur.com/hEvwG.jpg
Probably my favorite Diablo 2 alternative. Sure it doesn't have that amazing necro undead army that D2 has but it's still a lot of fun customizing your character especially since you can multiclass. Plus killing enemies to death so hard they go flying off the screen is always fun.
Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines
http://i.imgur.com/ViC16.jpg
Another amazing game by troika. Just looking at that picture gives me pangs to be able to click on lockpicking and hacking, I click but nothing happens, I am sad. I will be happy again at the thought of climbing through hotel vents and unlocking secret compartments and finding goofy easter eggs in the process while being a vampire when they were the cool kids.
I personally think path of exile had noble intentions but their tree has mostly passive skills hence the name "passive skill tree", there's nothing wrong with it but it's not my cup of tea. I prefer to press a button and get results instead of just getting a teeny tiny boost.
Some other examples that I won't go into detail but will list are...
Morrowind/Elder Scrolls
Diablo 2
Fallout 1 and 2 + series
Divine Divinity
Divinity 2
Final Fantasy Tactics
Tactics Ogre psp
Other examples include
Gothic series
Star Wars Galaxies *pours a mtn dew on the curb side for the disturbance in the force*
Shining Soul 2
The Witcher series
NWN
Deus Ex
Kotor
Maple Story
Mabinogi
Torchlight series
FF12
And to a lesser extent, Guardian Heroes, SMT games, Castle Crashers, Bioshock series. Maybe Infinity Engine games as well. mm I'm sure I'm forgetting plenty but I wish I knew more, you can tell I live for these types of games. I mostly try to list the ones I had fun with and consider to be quality or at least decent. Ah man it's raining again...
I really liked Xenoblade system, a lot of things to do.
FFV and Tactics (but generally everything with a decent Job System, even X-2)
Growlanser IV has a lot of skills.
Romancing Saga on PS2 offers a really, REALLY complex system of combo/skills, etc.
And yes, of course DDS/Nocturne.
FFV and Tactics (but generally everything with a decent Job System, even X-2)
Growlanser IV has a lot of skills.
Romancing Saga on PS2 offers a really, REALLY complex system of combo/skills, etc.
And yes, of course DDS/Nocturne.
Like some people have already mentioned, Ragnarok Online has vast skill trees for all of their 50+ classes (including Rebirth and 3rd Classes), and there are so many routes to go. Combined with gears and cards, you get a wide variety of builds for any occasion.
What makes it better is the custom stat allocation, something which very few MMOs have done (or done correctly) since. Each point is valuable and can change how a character is played. I don't know any other MMO where melee Battle Priest is viable. Wish more MMOs got the balance right.
What makes it better is the custom stat allocation, something which very few MMOs have done (or done correctly) since. Each point is valuable and can change how a character is played. I don't know any other MMO where melee Battle Priest is viable. Wish more MMOs got the balance right.
Sentenza
Member
Mount & Blade has one of the most balanced, well thought progression systems I can think about.
While you feel a clear sense of progression and empowerment over time, it's also balanced in a way that prevents you to min/max too much and it doesn't scale exponentially, so you don't become absurdly more strong than when you started and inhuman in your capabilities.
it also mixes in a very convincing way an exp system with "progression over use" for minor abilities.
Another amazing progression system (and ruleset in general) is the one used in Darklands, but I would guess there aren't more than few people remembering it on this forum.
While you feel a clear sense of progression and empowerment over time, it's also balanced in a way that prevents you to min/max too much and it doesn't scale exponentially, so you don't become absurdly more strong than when you started and inhuman in your capabilities.
it also mixes in a very convincing way an exp system with "progression over use" for minor abilities.
Another amazing progression system (and ruleset in general) is the one used in Darklands, but I would guess there aren't more than few people remembering it on this forum.
Digital Devil Saga 1+2 and SMT: Nocturne, especially the latter. It's awesome how you can make even low level monster to beasts with the fusion system if you take some time:
(True Final Boss Spoiler):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-khZ1zEvlg
(True Final Boss Spoiler):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-khZ1zEvlg
I was/am replaying Lost Odyssey, and one thing I appreciate about the leveling system is that feeling of constant accomplishment. It seems like after almost every battle, I'm gaining a new skill; now granted, it's hard to take full advantage of them until you have enough skill slots, but I like the way they structured it. Some of the battles can be surprisingly tricky, which is odd because the consensus here at the time was that the game was a cakewalk.
If I'm not mistaken, The Last Remnant is another game where it seems like the gaining of new skills or abilities is endless (unfortunately, I've been at the final boss for over a year now - not realizing how woefully underpowered I'd be when I face him).
If I'm not mistaken, The Last Remnant is another game where it seems like the gaining of new skills or abilities is endless (unfortunately, I've been at the final boss for over a year now - not realizing how woefully underpowered I'd be when I face him).
Imp the Dimp
Member
98% of these "skills" seem to be stat upgrades. Bit misleading and deceptive to speak of 1300+ skills.
@Topic
I absolutely adore Morrowind's progression system.
gravitybear
Member
believe it or not I really like demons/dark souls leveling systems. You really notice 1 extra stat point, especially in health/stamina/mana.
I liked trying to counterfeit money and failing and then having bounced checks suck my money away. But yeah, SO2 has the absolute best skill/item creation system I've ever seen in a game (it also happens to be my #2 favorite RPG of all time). The amount of shit you can do in it is legendary. Pickpocket from your party members? Mix herbs together RE style? Send a pigeon out from a dungeon to pick up items for you? Cook food and enter into an Iron Chef style tournament? Write a symphony and then play it back to stimulate your characters to invent better shit? Go for it!
Go on forever! You're probably the most qualified person on GAF to answer this question.
Sentenza
Member
I think it's simply terrible.
Meccanical
Member
Yes. All of that is so amazing.
Needless to say My enjoyment of the series greatly diminished when none that was possible anymore. More games should allow you to do the things you can in Star Ocean 2.
ii Stryker
Banned
FF7 and the Bethesda rpgs
The sphere grid in FFX was okay too.
The sphere grid in FFX was okay too.
Yep. Darklands had one of the best. It's too bad no other game(that I can think of) decided to emulate it.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
That's the passive skill tree. All the skills you use in the game require those stat upgrades to be able to use them. So you can't just roam wherever you want, you have to plan what skills you are going to be using in the future and how you are going to support them.
Plus you can link the skills to support gems that add stuff to the gem like fire damage, chaining a project to hit more targets, life steal, etc. Oh yeah, it's like FF7's materia system.
Here's an old ass picture, the game doesn't even use this ui anymore:
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Ummm that passive skill tree is probably not the 1300+ skills you are mentioning.
PoE uses the FF7 weapon/materia system of combining attack gems and support gems. You have a shit ton of combinations. And not only that, the gems will level up too making for even more progression and character building.
Edit: didn't see the above post
Head of Vengarl
Banned
And it's fun when you play NG+ and get more affinity coins. I have like 512 and I've completely broken the game.
I didn't even know you could do that, because I didn't finish the game
Still put 80 hours into it though, and was quite satisfied.
No you didn't. Even the useful talents like +crit % only gave you a 1% boost with a single levels worth of points. Talents were only interesting when you hit point milestones and actually got new skills to use. The talent trees were not very good for the most part.
People are going to disagree with me, but Fable II had awesome character development over the course of the game. I started out as some bright young fellow and by the end of the game I was a grizzled and battered old man who wearing a robe and a hat that shadowed my ruined face. To me that was awesome. Of course it's more of a visual effect than anything else, but it does change your perception of your character. When I started the game I wondered why there wasn't a character creator, and by the end of it I knew why, your character is created as you play the game. It's a very Molyneux thing to say, but this is one thing he did get right.
I think I have to agree. I like some of the JRPG systems mentioned in this thread, but I think some of them like FFX for example put style over usability/readability.
I love Morrowind's bevy of skills. My only beef is that it's possible to not gain the maximum amount of attributes when leveling up, making min-maxing have more importance.
Head of Vengarl
Banned
I didn't even know you could do that, because I didn't finish the game
Still put 80 hours into it though, and was quite satisfied.
Yeah when you do a New Game + you get to keep your level, gear, gems, skills, arts, and it refreshes the affinity coin drops for all unique monsters. I'm on my third NG+, so that's why I have so many. It's completely unnecessary but it was fun to do it.
SnakeswithLasers
Member
FF Tactics and FF X-2 were pretty awesome for jobs.
Don't even get me started on the Elder Scrolls progression system. Morrowind is one of my favorite RPG, but even its progression system was meh at best. It encouraged min-maxing and power gaming a little too much. Then on top of that you actually had things like picking skills you have bonuses in hurts you in the long run.(because you have less skill points to earn your maximum level is lowered) Then we have Oblivion that made it worse by adding in scaling.
I think I might be one of the few lovers of Morrowind who actually thought Skyrim's progression system was an improvement. Not that Skyrim's is very good either its just an improvement. I didn't like the dropping of skills or the attributes, but I would take that over the very flawed systems of Morrowind and Oblivion.
An example of a good progress by doing system like the Elder Scrolls is Darklands. It has the same basic idea and setup, but doesn't have the same problems.
Get back in the game son, the ending will wow and amaze you.I didn't even know you could do that, because I didn't finish the game
Still put 80 hours into it though, and was quite satisfied.