schwabdizzle
Banned
I am pretty skeptical about this. The infrastructure in the US will make this fail to the PS4. Of course I take this article with a grain of salt.
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VGLeaks: First look as Durango XDK (always connected, kinect required, must install)
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
Galacticos
Banned
wtf are you talking about?! 7970? what? how? since when?
That rather implies that MS targeted a gaming (not raw power) performance of a 7970. I don't think that games will be downgraded.
Miles Quaritch
Member
That seems unbelievable. Developers wil be targetting a set specification, sp even if some internal specs are changed, games would still have been developed with a set spec in mind.
What you're suggesting simply isn't beliveable.
specialguy
Banned
Hmm, look what I found
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/...4s-hardware-power-controller-features-at-gdc/
Anyways, article may deserve a new thread? GDC presentation writeup.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/...4s-hardware-power-controller-features-at-gdc/
Anyways, article may deserve a new thread? GDC presentation writeup.
specialguy
Banned
Yeah umm, I think the current beta kits were supposed to have essentially final Durango hardware. That's what I had heard from rumors.
No.
specialguy
Banned
dragonelite
Member
phosphor112
Banned
Get out of here Stalker.
Really, just go away. You keep doing this shit. You say stuff, and it doesn't make any fucking sense. And the eDRAM in the 360 was important because it provided much higher bandwidth than the PS3 can provide (and no, the PS3 can't provide "double" that of the 360, it doesn't fucking work like that.)
I agree, 100%. That's why I think MS is crazy for not saying anything.
So what's in the Beta Kits? and also if devs don't have the beta kits with the final specs yet where was the rumors that the Xbox 3 & PS4 games would only be slightly different coming from?
Well his info so far has been almost 100% correct. There is no reason to doubt him.
If what thuway says it's true, we are looking at 1.2 (7770) vs 3.8 TFLOPS (7970). That's a 2.6 TFLOPS of downgrade right there. Such a move will undoubtedly cause quite a noticable graphical downgrade (unless developers knew that the final GPU will be much weaker and never used Radeon 7970 all the way).
Microsoft could very well allow developers to show much better looking games simply to start "Durango is better than PS4" post E3 talk and generate (albeit fake) hype. This would of course backfire immediately after Durango release when alpha vs final build comparisons start. Regardless of backfiring, initial (E3) impressions would likely stick in many gamers' heads and that alone could be enough for many to consider Durango equal or even better than PS4.
Another explanation is that perhaps Microsoft once pursued more powerful machine (initial rumors all pointed to Durango being more powerful than PS4) and gave up eventually deciding that price&media center capabilities > gaming power.
phosphor112
Banned
You can't buy GDDR5 ram standalone anyway.
Also, there is already a thread that discusses all of the things revealed during GDC. Several interviews.
Great posts and agreed that it will be hard for many people to tell the differences between these versions. IIRC a dev here pointed out how people here believe the GC was as powerful as the xbox, even though the xbox GPU was 3x faster than the GPU in the GC. If people can't see the difference in power with that performance gap, they may not see it with a gap that's much smaller.
That strategy didn't work out too well for Sony and the PS3...Would MS really risk the ridicule from what will be the potential early adopters?
Lol, talk about moving goal posts. You don't have that info.
phosphor112
Banned
Yeah, it's GPU.
But those other comments I'm not to sure. We know they modified the GPU for compute processes, but we don't know how exactly.
Thanks and it was unfortunately in the wrong thread.
The real problem is, that you can't compare graphical output by the flop count of the used GPU. Just see it this way : 1.2 TFlops GPU in a closed environment >>> 1.2 TFlops in a PC.
phosphor112
Banned
It happens, still tech related.
Sure, there would be ridicule, but maybe Microsoft believes that it's worth the risk. Besides, their behavior regarding next gen is bizarre at best. They are dead silent about Durango, they are allowing Sony to spread their wings and generate hype without even attempting to interfere. Articles how "PS4 is great, easy to work with and powerful" are normal everyday thing and how does Microsoft react to that - with dead silence.
Considering the above, execs at Microsoft could very well think it's a smart move.
I am very much aware of that. I was comparing 7770 (rumored Durango GPU equivalent) against 7970 in a devkit (also a closed environment). It's true that there is probably much more overhead in a devkit then in a final console (devkit being development environment), but I very much doubt that the overhead is so great that it would require 2.6 extra TFLOPS.
Well the non-beta devkits lack the move engines, the ESRAM pool and several other Durango-GPU stuff which is compensated by bruteforcing stuff into the 7970 (if true) and thus minimizing the practical power gap between both. So I don't think there will a downgrade as suggested by thuway. Devs just have to make use of the distinct Beta-GPU features once they get their hands on the Beta-Devkits.
McHuj
Member
When the alpha kits went out, MS had a pretty good idea of what the APU was going to be capable of. They didn't design a chip, but then gave out a devkit at the same time that wasn't going to be representative (or close to) the final hardware.
The devkit could have a 7970, I don't think that's far fetched at all. We just don't know the reason why.
Outside of the obvious stuff (like number of CUs, TMU's and ROP's) are the 77xx, 78xx, 79xx series at all different? I know double precision flops on the 79xx are 1/4 the single precision flops and on the 78xx they are 1/16. I doubt that would matter. Are the cache sizes different?
The 7970 comes with a 384-bit bus perhaps they need a board with a bigger bus and bandwidth to emulate the eSRAM and main memory pools.
The alpha kit would not only be running the emulated xbox hardware, but some level of debugger in the same system, so it's not inconceivable, that you need to much greater hardware to simulate that.
The devkit could have a 7970, I don't think that's far fetched at all. We just don't know the reason why.
Outside of the obvious stuff (like number of CUs, TMU's and ROP's) are the 77xx, 78xx, 79xx series at all different? I know double precision flops on the 79xx are 1/4 the single precision flops and on the 78xx they are 1/16. I doubt that would matter. Are the cache sizes different?
The 7970 comes with a 384-bit bus perhaps they need a board with a bigger bus and bandwidth to emulate the eSRAM and main memory pools.
The alpha kit would not only be running the emulated xbox hardware, but some level of debugger in the same system, so it's not inconceivable, that you need to much greater hardware to simulate that.
Ah, wasn't aware of this. If that's the case, then you are probably right, they could be bruteforcing these features on 7970.
But I still do wonder, isn't 2.6 extra TFLOPS a bit excessive for emulating these features? We are talking about surplus of power greater than the entire FLOPS count of the final Durango.
McHuj
Member
I think the bigger issue with emulating something like eSRAM is available bandwidth and not necessarily the flops count.
In theory the Durango GPU can read from both system memory and eSRAM at a combined ~170 GB/sec. I don't know when the alpha kits went out, but I think at the time, only the 79xx series had bandwidth greater than that. So I think only those boards could come close to emulating that the memory of the Durango.
We also don't know if it was a stock 7970 or one with disabled units. It wouldn't surprise me if it had disabled CU's and ROP's, but full bandwidth capability.
phosphor112
Banned
Keep in mind PC's have higher API overheads and things like PCI bandwidth limitations.
Small things add up here and there. Final silicon won't be nearly as powerful, but since the chips are all directly on the PCB, it'll be much more efficient. No interfaces for it to deal with.
Crimson_Gold
Member
Do you also believe that there will be a drop in graphics once the devs are given the final kits or will they be about the same?
Well I don't know the exact math behind it, but I guess MS knows what they are doing.
phosphor112
Banned
Well, they aren't going to know the constraints of the system until they use it. Why not shoot higher and then scale back later? It's easier to get the big work done and then drop down.
IIRC PS3 and 360 early works did the same thing.
Crimson_Gold
Member
About what I had figured. Thanks for sharing.
BTW I am predicating a downgrade based on what developer's have at the moment. Most third parties don't have beta devkits yet and are using uber powerful alpha kits with 7970s. You can make a damn gorgeous looking demo using those kits. The next devkits will break into the stage of optimization which will be a task that will last until the days of release.
Unlike MS, Sony worked in revese. They had hardware that was underpowered and slowly made the kits better as time went on. We are now at a point where the specs are official and any one with half a brain can approximate the results of what you can get.
Unlike MS, Sony worked in revese. They had hardware that was underpowered and slowly made the kits better as time went on. We are now at a point where the specs are official and any one with half a brain can approximate the results of what you can get.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
I find it hard to believe that beta kits which were released last year are not in the hands of anyone working on Durango games 3+ months later.
IMHO devs will get the optimization done rather fast and games will run and look just like on the alpha kit.
phosphor112
Banned
But the GPU in the Alpha kits are significantly more powerful.
Now we are running in circles...
eot
Banned
That's not something you can have an opinion on.
None of this makes a difference if MS has properly communicated what to expect from the final system.
The hardware is there for the devs to have something work on and become familiar with the tools. The final config of the system shouldn't be a surprise to any dev that's been receiving dev kits this whole time.
Why would MS still have not released the beta dev kits to third parties? Did they have any serious problems at the foundries when making the chips?
As far as we know MS opted for the Durango project quite some time ago, and the specs didn't change that much. This is strange.
They should be way ahead of this.
Are the PS4 beta dev kits out in the open already?
As far as we know MS opted for the Durango project quite some time ago, and the specs didn't change that much. This is strange.
They should be way ahead of this.
Are the PS4 beta dev kits out in the open already?
Crimson_Gold
Member
So the whole "MS is going to show high end PC footage then hope no one notices the downgrade at launch" thing is being forwarded again ?
A lot of the stuff written is starting to reek , why the desperation for MS to fail ? It's also a little embarrassing that some are desperate to believe any so called insider as long as the news is negative.
A lot of the stuff written is starting to reek , why the desperation for MS to fail ? It's also a little embarrassing that some are desperate to believe any so called insider as long as the news is negative.
I doubt it's a chip production issue. You don't need nearly as much chips for devkits as you need for a mass console production. Even if they are facing low yields, they should have been able to produce beta kits by now.
Must be something else...
There is no desperation for them to fail, we are simply trying to analyze the situation. And you can hardly call thuway "so called insider" (I presume you are referring to him) since he, along with Bruce Lee Roy, provided the most accurate info regarding next gen.
dragonelite
Member
If you ask me 7970 rumor is bullshit or the 1.2Tflops beta gpu is bullshit.
That's a 2.6 TFlops something difference if you ask me that is fucking over kill.
That would mean the Beta gpu must have 100% efficiency and the alpha must operate on 32% efficiency. Which is bullshit. You could probably simulate everything you needed with a 7870.
Something doesn't add up.
Or they changed directions and vision when they went from alpha to beta design.
Alpha design xbox division was still run with gamers in mind maybe pre kinect raze?
And when beta was designed post kinect raze leadership was flushed and the MBA took over.
Wanted more of a service box instead of a gamer box.
Or the documentations are missing information microsoft only disclosed in person to the techleads also a way to combat leaks from documents.
Or maybe i just want a stronger box then rumors are pointing at.
/Tin foil hat ramblings of a disappointed gamer.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
Welcome to NeoGaf........if anything MS has been far far far far far more honest about what they've shown than Sony over the years.
phosphor112
Banned
They'll have a general idea, but they still don't know the full constraints until they use it. What's hard to get? I'm not saying it'll go from PC super duper settings to shit, I'm saying it won't look the same.
Baconsammy
Banned
digoutyoursoul
Member
A slight part of me wants the system to be excellent just to see the meltdowns, that goes for the ones posting negative garbage about PS4 too.
I get the "trolling for kicks" but for me it becomes boring after the 48th time of "Kinect 2 Box RROD" or people hoping PS4 is $599 again just so it fails.
I get the "trolling for kicks" but for me it becomes boring after the 48th time of "Kinect 2 Box RROD" or people hoping PS4 is $599 again just so it fails.
They have more than a general idea. They should know target amount of cores, clock rates, custom features, purpose of these features, amount of memory, memory type, theoretical bandwidth, etc.
Below is an example of documentation that MS sent out to devs in June of 2004 for the 360, about a year and a half before the system launched. If you read it, you'll see how close the target specs are to the final hardware, regardless of how early this document was sent out...
They aren't going to change for Durango and suddenly leave developers in the dark. I agree it won't look the same, but that's a given and another thing that devs would also already know.
Honestly not that big of a tech head so admittedly a lot of this conversation goes over my head.
But you are right - something isn't adding up here.
Specifically, I've heard devs/websites mention that the two systems are close in power, however leaked specs don't show any real "closeness" in power, they show a significant advantage to PS4. You hear estimations that MS is going in a different direction with this system, yet they use a significantly overpowered card (7970) in dev kits (compared again to our leaked specs). Why would they do that if they don't expect their performance to be anywhere near that?
I'm not expecting a sudden reveal where the 720 is SUPER-ULTRA powered...it just seems like we are missing a piece to the puzzle, given the information we currently have.
Unfortunately, till the official reveal, we won't know for sure, and MS seems perfectly content in their silence right now.