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Microsoft's Windows Store games to limit standard PC user control options (PcPer)

R

riflen

Member
I wonder if the FlipEX workaround Nvidia are using is in place to allow G-Sync to work?
It seems like we'll find out tomorrow (or later roday) when Ryan looks into G-Sync and FreeSync technologies with respect to these games.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
MS are so messy wrt to this. why are they apparently incapable of doing anything for PC users without trying to ruin things they've taken for granted for years?
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
It's quite obvious that the "UWA platform" was predicated on the idea of limiting user control under the guise of ease of access/development, so that this has spilled over into the development of DX12 doesn't come as a shock.
 
D

Dictator93

Member
Calabi said:
So DX12 wasn't such a good idea after all. Who would've guessed. Is this going to be like DX9 again.
Click to expand...

This situation is more akin to DX10, albeit with extremely palpable performance upgrades on top of more programmability. Back then, MS likewise attempted to trojan horse its OS with DX10, but this time it is trying to implement backwards policies with the API as well.
 
P

ps3ud0

Member
Wonder if middleware/engine devs will start to embrace Vulkan more because of what MS are trying with DX12.

And thanks Dictator93

ps3ud0 8)
 
Z

Zaph

Member
JaseC said:
It's quite obvious that the "UWA platform" was predicated on the idea of limiting user control under the guise of ease of access/development, so that this has spilled over into the development of DX12 doesn't come as a shock.
Click to expand...

Which is especially hilarious considering this 'ease of access/development' is for what? A tablet and phone installbase which is tiny and/or failing? You're asking developers to prop-up your failing platforms by taking away from a profitable platform - the PC.
 
B

Blanquito

Member
Read this last night. Thanks for the overview and info. Wonder how this will turn out in the end, for MS, consumers, and DX12
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Zaph said:
Which is especially hilarious considering this 'ease of access/development' is for what? A tablet and phone installbase which is tiny and/or failing? You're asking developers to prop-up your failing platforms by taking away from a profitable platform - the PC.
Click to expand...

Given we're in a time where Steamworks is the platform of choice for publishers that aren't EA or Ubisoft and GFWL is practically dead, I don't think Microsoft has any grand delusions regarding third-party support for the WinStore as far as the PC is concerned, but even if it decides to release its Win10 games on Steam, you can bet your left leg that this will take the form of either a collaboration with Valve that results in app support for Steam or a Win32 version of the Xbox app that acts as an app launcher.
 
CharmingCharlie

CharmingCharlie

Member
Calabi said:
So DX12 wasn't such a good idea after all. Who would've guessed. Is this going to be like DX10 again.
Click to expand...

Quite a few saw something like this going down, but they got called Luddites, Trolls, retards, morons and paranoid conspiracy nut balls.

It shouldn't even be a damn surprise to anyone you just need to look at Microsofts history there is a THEME. But every damn time Microsoft does something new we get people going "this time it will be different".

Hopefully Dx12 will fall flat on it's arse and then we can start the cycle all over again with Dx13 being wonderful and insulting the few naysayers only to discover worse shit in Dx13.
 
J

justsomeguy

Member
InsaneTiger said:
So Microsoft is trying to make the PC environment more closed?
Click to expand...

I didn't get that, there was some positive commentary in the article too (bar the italic bit at the end!) - I see it more about trying to standardise the experience.

That article said:
First, it should be noted that most game developers actually support the kind of moves that Microsoft is making, at least when it comes to improving the experience and image quality of the games they are building. Tearing looks bad, no one is denying that, and removing it from PC games is definitely a goal to strive for. Talking with a handful of people, off the record, on what Microsoft is attempting to do with DX12 and unified games, the intent to improve the ecosystem seems legitimate, though the implementation and messaging seems to be half-baked at best.
Click to expand...

I took away that they're trying to ensure a consistent experience for gaming on W10 (or at least games that go through the store) - i.e. the gaming bar and all those other things they mention in the article. It makes technical sense provided the cost of that standardisation isn't too high.

For reference here are Phil's quotes from earlier today:

Phil Spencer said:
I understand the need to react and to fit in in the PC gaming community with the tools that they rightfully want at their disposal. It’s in our tracking system, stuff that we’re going to get done, and we have a real path to get it done. The reason I wanted to articulate those issues and deficiencies is so that people recognise I’m not trying to say they’re not important. I’m not trying to say that, ‘oh, 90% of the people don’t even know what mGPU means so go away.’ I’m saying, ‘no, these are features we know we need to support that we know they’re not there today but we are committed to supporting in the future.’ Because I don’t want people to look at this as a passing fancy on our part of, ‘can we just quickly port some console games over to PC and hope to make a little bit of money?’ It’s not all about that. We are the Windows company, and ensuring that the Windows gaming ecosystem is strong is important, and that means supporting these features.
Click to expand...

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating of course...i.e. they have to deliver that promise.
 
D

Disaster Nebraska

Banned
Well then.

How exactly is this good for PC gamers? Seems like their recent decisions with the Xbox brand and Windows Store (plus this) are being made with the purpose of herding people into their closed-off ecosystem.
 
E

emag

Member
InsaneTiger said:
So Microsoft is trying to make the PC environment more closed?
Click to expand...

As much as with the DOS->Windows NT/XP transition and the XP->Vista/7 transition. Edge-case tweaks will be sacrificed for the goal for greater common-case performance and reliability, and the transition may be bumpy as quirks are ironed out of drivers, utilities, and deprecated hardware.
 
B

Brannon

Member
There is a very long post that basically says

Microsoft - We're gonna do right by PC gaming!

*fuck something up

MS - okay THIS time we're gonna do right by PC gaming!

*fuck something up

MS - those times don't count; THIS time is the time for PC gaming!

*fuck something up

MS - we hear you, and we understand. This time, right now, we're gonna do right by PC gaming!

*fuck something up

MS - look, just dispel the notion that we don't know what to do with PC gaming; THIS time we know exactly what to do with PC gaming!

*fuck something up

...

The distrust is not without precedent; they've earned it in full. And now there's hints of restrictions on PC in the air via W10. Right. Nice.

Sure some would say that hey, we should give them a (yet another out of so many) chance, but at some point in life, pattern recognition has to kick in?
 
G

Gbraga

Member
justsomeguy said:
No, I didn't get that at all, and there was some positive commentary in the article too (bar the italic bit at the end!):

First, it should be noted that most game developers actually support the kind of moves that Microsoft is making, at least when it comes to improving the experience and image quality of the games they are building. Tearing looks bad, no one is denying that, and removing it from PC games is definitely a goal to strive for. Talking with a handful of people, off the record, on what Microsoft is attempting to do with DX12 and unified games, the intent to improve the ecosystem seems legitimate, though the implementation and messaging seems to be half-baked at best.
Click to expand...

So it should be noted that I disagree with most game developers, and that's one of the advantages of PC gaming. I don't give a shit if the developers of Crysis think it's better to play the games with vsync, I think the input lag is absolutely terrible and can't deal with it when playing their games, so I turn it off.

Removing it from PC games is a goal to strive for IF YOU PREFER TO PLAY WITHOUT IT. As I do for most games, actually. But for the few games where I prefer to play with vsync off, like Crysis or SF IV, I want the option to turn it off.

Are garbage 30fps locks also a goal to strive for? Because that's what we're stuck with if we can't use 3rd party software for correct framepacing.
 
W

wildfire

Banned
I recommend everyone read the entire article.

What the op posted doesn't catch the full scale of what it discusses line most op's do.
 
Crayon

Crayon

Member
I use linux despite there being a lot less games for it.

That's usually considered a stance worthy of ridicule on this forum. Because, you know.... game selection is more important that freedom in personal computing.

Just sayin.
 
H

hoserx

Member
Crayon said:
I use linux despite there being a lot less games for it.

That's usually considered a stance worthy of ridicule on this forum. Because, you know.... game selection is more important that freedom in personal computing.

Just sayin.
Click to expand...

Well, neogaf is a forum of gamers.......so naturally, gaming is important to them. I use linux but boot into windows any time I want to play a game. It's not hard, nor does it make me want to make posts insinuating that people who use windows are "anti-freedom".
 
P

pastrami

Member
This article does not fill me with confidence about Microsoft's plan for Windows gaming, even if I can see why they would want to make these moves.
 
H

harSon

Banned
It's not an issue that effects me directly since I wouldn't consider myself a power user as far as PC gaming is concerned, but these are certainly issues and limitations that are unacceptable - and honestly things that should be fixed ASAP. They should be priorities plain and simple, not stuff that they'll get around to doing at some point.
 
F

FoxSpirit

Junior Member
Netherscourge said:
OpenGL and Vulcan will save us.
Click to expand...
I wonder if it's a conincidence that Vulcan is coming out right now? As if some industry people caught wind of the plan that MS will slowly try push all DX12 games into it's own ecosystem and noone except MS wants that so they sat down to make something open that is not MS based?
 
Crayon

Crayon

Member
hoserx said:
Well, neogaf is a forum of gamers.......so naturally, gaming is important to them. I use linux but boot into windows any time I want to play a game. It's not hard, nor does it make me want to make posts insinuating that people who use windows are "anti-freedom".
Click to expand...

Maybe it's time to stop being so hostile to people who are don't take personal computers for granted. There's too many gamers who hand wave this stuff off because it's convenient for their hobby.
 
Q

QaaQer

Member
Crayon said:
Maybe it's time to stop being so hostile to people who are don't take personal computers for granted. There's too many gamers who hand wave this stuff off because it's convenient for their hobby.
Click to expand...

.

IDK if people realize how important an open internet and an open computing platform are for freedom. Imagine if a corporation decided what programs you could or could not run on your hardware (iphone anyone?) and a govt decided what websites you could visit.
 
T

TharpDaddy

Member
Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Crayon said:
I use linux despite there being a lot less games for it.

That's usually considered a stance worthy of ridicule on this forum. Because, you know.... game selection is more important that freedom in personal computing.

Just sayin.
Click to expand...

Honest question, what benefit would Linux have for me? I just want to play Rocket League, Grim Dawn and some other games. I care about the games not what platform I play them on, what advantage does Linux offer in that case?
 
Z

Zepp Twofist

Member
It's the sandboxing in Windows Store that scares me the most. That will basically limit the extent of what software and hardware that can interact with and enhance your game to whatever the devs want to implement, the api allows devs to implement and knowledge of them how to implement it. Which is why I will never buy any game released as a windows store app.

The DX12 stuff seems like it can be worked around in drivers though, and the end goal seems to be to try to eliminate tearing. Though how it plays out for gsync/freesync is also interesting. If it ends up being something more restricting than what we have today, I am wholly against.
 
S

sanhora

Member
Sad and scary stuff.

Hopefully devs who have the ability to choose will pick the pro consumer alternative and use Vulkan.
 
Freeman

Freeman

Banned
May Vulkan deliver us from MS's tyranny and free us from the shackles of Windows.

May DirectX fall in disuse and follow Windows Store into oblivion.

May this renewed intent to limit our freedom sprout the seeds of rebellion that will drive the masses to install Linux.
 
Crayon

Crayon

Member
TharpDaddy said:
Honest question, what benefit would Linux have for me? I just want to play Rocket League, Grim Dawn and some other games. I care about the games not what platform I play them on, what advantage does Linux offer in that case?
Click to expand...

None. Just play your games.
 
T

therapist

Member
Lol

If im forced to use just vsync all the time , ill just quit pc gaming i cant stand the damn input lag.

This is so incredibly dumb. Yes , take away the options that people pay for basically and make it more console like , a super expensive console with no options to tinker with.

Thanks , microsoft.

Edit : No mods is also really fucking lame. Imagine if Arma never had mods , we would of never had DayZ etc...
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
I said it in the earlier thread and Ill say it again:

GFWL 2: Electric Bugaloo

At least the dx12 bits are work aroundable, but like everything about this, how is it good for anyone on the user end to abandon bedrock strengths of the platform? Their bringing over of One media shouldnt be bringing over its tonedeaf self interested design decisions (and subsequent embarrassed backpedaling).
 
Papacheeks

Papacheeks

Banned
Seeing the details of the article, I'm now convinced this mostly will backfire. I don't see people who play games being happy with no sli, crossfire support, the super high recommendations though maybe they are just estimated place holders.

No mods?
This is not going to flourish like Microsoft want it too. Unless drastic changes are made down the road.

It's GAMES For windows LIve all over again, only difference is this is worse IMHO. You won't be able to really utilize your $1,200 dollar pc like you could on Steam, Battle.net games.
It's like they are trying to give PC players the same expierence you get on xbox console, for the sake to not make PC versions look Superior?
Seriously MS WTF? FIrst shitty hololens apps with beloved characters being butchered like Conker, now this shit?

MICROSOFT YOU WERE SUPPOSE TO ......


tumblr_mqyne3XkNK1sx2peuo3_500.gif
 
J

Joezie

Member
And so we are once again greeted with the reality of the current steward of PC gaming undoubtedly becoming the worse choice over time.
 
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