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How come the new South Park game needs so much time to be made?

nkarafo

Member
I see that it was announced exactly two years ago. And it still needs a few more months according to the release date. But how come such a game needs all this time? That's a genuine question, not a complaint.

First and foremost, the game uses the same graphical style as the show. Which is probably the easiest to make. You don't even need to make many more new assets, most of the stuff should already exist from the show or the previous game. The new game is based on The Coon storyline it seems so they already have a lot of what they need, in terms of assets.

The story, voice acting, etc needs to be new ofc but still, according to some behind the scenes from the show, Matt and Trey are able to produce a new episode pretty fast. Like in less than a week or so. Sure, the game isn't as simple as a single South Park episode but i wouldn't be surprised if they completed the previous game's voice acting and story in a couple of months. If you watch a speedrun of that game, it feels like a special, longer episode, or like those three parters in the show. But as a game, especially an RPG, the previous game was way too short.

Making a turn based RPG needs balancing, which is probably the hardest part of the development. I assume it's the one part that needs re-testing over and over. So i assume this takes a big chunk of the development time. But does a game like South Park, with that kind of gameplay and number of abilities and characters, need so much time?

I'm basing everything to the previous game. For me it didn't look or feel like a game that needed a long time to be made. Unless the new game is much longer and a bit more complex than the previous one (i hope).

Do you agree with this?
 

LiK

Member
Judging from stories from the first game's development. Trey and Matt might be changing jokes and doing rewrites constantly.

Also, big games take time.
 

FelipeMGM

Member
Quality game development is never easy, no matter the scope

And its not like a super simple game to make I imagine, its beeing built with the Snowdrop engine, same created for The Division
 

Xyber

Member
Yep, they can just copy and paste assets from the TV show and 50% of the game is done.

That's definitely how it works.
 
Theres a lot more assets going into this than what its in a normal episode of South Park.

And yeah not too mention the possible changes to the story from Matt and Trey.
 

fernoca

Member
The entire premise of the post assumes that not only games are easy to make, but that this game's somehow easier because of...the show...and because of...the first game.

....


The first game took around 5 years to be made/released and it even was delayed a few times.

So nope, don't agree. :p
 

schaft0620

Member
Tray and Matt work directly on the game as voice actors and writers. They took time away to make the last season a few months before the game launched. They live where they make the show in season and work on nothing else. I am assuming that was one of 2 or 3 issues. A few people that played the game last fall said the game was no where near ready for December launch.
 
I assume the same reason Stick of Truth took a while. Development is hard and Matt/Trey are perfectionists. Also it covers so many more topics and characters than a traditional show, almost like making an entire season of the show when you think about it.

It ends up with the best product possible, so I'm good with it!
 

Patryn

Member
Creating assets for the TV show is far, far, far easier than creating assets for the game.

In fact, as I recall, one of the biggest cause of delay for Stick of Truth was that Matt and Trey were used to the TV show and kept changing their minds, and what took hours for the show took months for the game.
 

nkarafo

Member
The entire premise of the post assumes that not only games are easy to make, but that this game's somehow easier because of...the show...and because of...the first game.
Not at all. I'm comparing the first game with other games that look more complex and are much bigger. The first SP game wasn't that long or too complicated. At least that's the impression i got.

I'm not suggesting it should be out a month after the announcement but i would except a smaller development time compared to most AAA games.
 

Ridley327

Member
Judging from stories from the first game's development. Trey and Matt might be changing jokes and doing rewrites constantly.

Also, big games take time.
This. The movie wasn't even done until a couple of weeks before it premiered, since they were doing last minute rewrites to add in more gags (hence why it managed to get a reference to The Phantom Menace in there). Throw that into a pot with lead times on games being what they are, and it's easy to see why it takes a while.
 

Piers

Member
The delays are probably because of Matt/Trey. Otherwise I somewhat agree in that the game's complexity and scope isn't exactly AAA material.
 
What do you mean by "look more complex"? Just the graphics?

This is an RPG, there are a ton of things going in the background that you don't see
 

Patryn

Member
Not at all. I'm comparing the first game with other games that look more complex and are much bigger. The first SP game wasn't that long or too complicated. At least that's the impression i got.

I'm not suggesting it should be out a month after the announcement but i would except a smaller development time compared to most AAA games.

Just because something doesn't look complex doesn't mean it isn't complex behind the scenes.

You are aware the first game had multiple substantial delays, right?
 

BillyBillBlack

Neo Member
Comedy is hard.

Video game comedy is even harder.

Exactly. They could push out South Park mobile games a couple times a year if they wanted to. But to make a game that I laugh at and enjoy as much as the show takes a long time. If they delayed another year I wouldn't care because I know the quality would be there.
 

NotLiquid

Member
For one thing they're making a comedy game, and South Park's entire premise in regards to it's comedy is built on taking the piss out of everything contemporary in our society. That's fine and all when making a TV show that doesn't take longer than a week to push out a new episode, but it's going to date your product hard if you dwell any long on it, and unfortunately game development takes a really fucking long time. By the time the game is close to being done there's a strong chance that much of the material it parodies will have gone "out of style" to make fun of. Even Stick of Truth has a deal of jokes in the game that feel like they're going to get old when revisited years from now.

To be honest it's a problem I have had with South Park in general since the everything after the eighth season ended. Up til that then they were batting home runs with some profound commentary mixed in with the humor but increasingly it's become a matter of "everyone is stupid but us".
 

fernoca

Member
Not at all. I'm comparing the first game with other games that look more complex and are much bigger. The first SP game wasn't that long or too complicated. At least that's the impression i got.

I'm not suggesting it should be out a month after the announcement but i would except a smaller development time compared to most AAA games.
So, why expect that? What's your knowledge on the development of games in general, that makes you assume it should be easier?

Because...it looks easy? You got the wrong impression on how game development works.
 

nkarafo

Member
So, why expect that? What's your knowledge on the development of games in general, that makes you assume it should be easier?

Because...it looks easy? You got the wrong impression on how game development works.
Which is why i asked a question. Because it looks easier to me compared to other games that take a similar amount of time to be made. And since i don't know better, someone could explain to me like some other posters do.
 
I wonder if the story of the game hinged on Hillary winning at some point. I know Trump winning screwed up their last season.
 
OP go read Jason Schreier's new book about game development. Making games is incredibly difficult regardless of how a game may look or how complex it is.
Sometimes fixing a object in the game could cause errors in another object which then causes this texture not to load properly and thus creating a game breaking bug.
Just wait OP South Park will probably be out this year and will be great!
 

nkarafo

Member
By the time the game is close to being done there's a strong chance that much of the material it parodies will have gone "out of style" to make fun of.
Some of the oldest South Park episodes are still funny today because the comedy is based on the boys life and personalities instead of recent events. Since the new game is based on The Coon and friends, they could just make up a fantasy story and play with each character's personality to create the comedy. It doesn't always have to be about Trump or Obama, or something that happened recently, etc.

But that's my opinion.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Yep, they can just copy and paste assets from the TV show and 50% of the game is done.

That's definitely how it works.

They actually might be able to import the models. South Park is animated in Maya, so it might be possible.
 
I've been working on games for over 15 years now and let me tell ya, even the smallest and most simplistic of games, game features, modes, etc can be complete and utter fuckers to implement.

Games are hard as shit to make and take lots of time and lots of effort to get right. End of.

A few of us have said we should write a book about it one day, along with all the shit that goes down in the industry. Oh there are some tales to tell, that's for sure.
 

nkarafo

Member
They actually might be able to import the models. South Park is animated in Maya, so it might be possible.
Ι mean, South Park characters aren't like others where you can refine them, change them, improve them, add more details, etc... I'm pretty sure the characters look the same since season 3 where they changed them up a bit and made the animated mouths look less rough. Since then there are very few things added like fingers when they need to, more view angles, a few new expressions, some new hair styles and stuff like that. But the base models are always the same.
 

Ridley327

Member
Some of the oldest South Park episodes are still funny today because the comedy is based on the boys life and personalities instead of recent events. Since the new game is based on The Coon and friends, they could just make up a fantasy story and play with each character's personality to create the comedy. It doesn't always have to be about Trump or Obama, or something that happened recently, etc.

But that's my opinion.

That's a big part of why I liked Stick of Truth so much, since it didn't have much in the way of topical humor. It was one big love letter to the town itself, and they absolutely nailed it.
 

sinxtanx

Member
Which is why i asked a question. Because it looks easier to me compared to other games that take a similar amount of time to be made. And since i don't know better, someone could explain to me like some other posters do.

I'm here to explain

Explanation: video games are always hard to make, no matter the graphics. The underlying systems are what need to be balanced and tested, tested, tested again to make sure the game flows well and players don't get stuck and that no obscure bug deletes your savefile and "oh this menu needs to be remade 10 times before it really works, it'll work this time, I promise you" and suddenly the story dictates that the player gets this one item a chapter later so WOO BOY better rebalance all of that AGAIN
 

Carn82

Member
I don't think the technical part of the game is the biggest 'challenge': I think Stone & Parker want to ship a game they believe in. I think they can veto to delay the game whenever they think it needs some more work.
 

Isotropy

Member
I doubt there were complications in the actual game development. Yes game development is hard, but this is a sequel that's not a huge departure from the original. They're not going out on any limbs here.

I'm completely sure the delays are over re-writes, most likely so that the game can tie in to a story arc in the coming season.
 

nubbe

Member
everything i easy when you're ignorant
I work in IT and always get to hear how easy my job is from incompetent people
 

fernoca

Member
Which is why i asked a question. Because it looks easier to me compared to other games that take a similar amount of time to be made. And since i don't know better, someone could explain to me like some other posters do.
For once the script is huge and constantly evolving, so one change in the story can change a look,or add a new item.

Then the new item needs to be balanced for the entire game.

Then consider that from announcenent to release, even with the delays, it still "only" 2 years. 3 years after the original which is the average time a sequel is usually released.

Add development size, it may be published by Ubisoft, but there no thousands of people working on it across the world unlike Assassin's Creed as its peak.

Plus mix in the usual development stuff like things not working properly, bugs, glitches, along producers that are also working in other things.
 
I asked myself the same thing a while back and wondered if that Trey and Matt wanted another good game and simply changed a lot of things as the game went along, or weren't happy with what was already developed and reworked it. This is Ubisoft were talking about, it's not Obsidian. As another user just put it in another thread.

Seriously, is Ubisoft really this creatively bankrupt?

This is kind of how I feel about their games these days and it really makes me question if they just put that placeholder formula of theirs to work and the people at SP were like, no, you gotta do better.

Though I see you're being attacked for not knowing that development is hard and extremely tricky, it really is, one small change could break 10 different things. But there are always other factors ontop of the technical aspects and issues.
 

nkarafo

Member
everything i easy when you're ignorant
I work in IT and always get to hear how easy my job is from incompetent people
Never implied game development is easy. I implied this game looks easier to me than other games that seem to use the same amount of time to be made. I compare games with games. Not a game vs some other unrelated thing. I know game development is hard but not all games need the same amount of work.
 

mieumieu

Member
Never implied game development is easy. I implied this game looks easier to me than other games that seem to use the same amount of time to be made. I compare games with games. Not a game vs some other unrelated thing. I know game development is hard but not all games need the same amount of work.

The problem is that game development is not just about stuff you can see or hear, nor just about stuff you now see in the final product.

Lots of trial and error, lots of underlying systems, lots of detailed stuff that needs to care about.

Also the engine switch to Snowdrop that's not trivial either.

edit: about detailed stuff, people seriously underestimates how much detail was gone into games, not just these days but even back then. Take this one as an example:
Polygon FF7 retrospective said:
Nomura-san is crazy. [Laughs] His standards were extremely high. He was always concerned about the characters' eyes, for example — the shapes and sizes of the eyes, the thicknesses of the eyelids. He'd spend a ton of time just on a little curve of an eye. I don't think he ever gave me a simple approval.
-- Motonori Sakakibara, Movie director, Square
 
I saw a video from the development of Stick of Truth and Obsidian said it was really hard and it took a really long time to nail the artstyle, making it look right and move right and all that.
 

fernoca

Member
I saw a video from the development of Stick of Truth and Obsidian said it was really hard and it took a really long time to nail the artstyle, making it look right and move right and all that.
There's that too.
The first game was done by Obsidian, the new one is done by a different team at Ubisoft and a new engine (Snowdrop). So that takes a good chunk out of development time.
 

aristotle

Member
I don't get all the doom and gloom. There is a single word answer that seems to be missing that perfectly explains why it's being worked on still.

Trump
 
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