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I hate nonlinearity in games.

Feep

Banned
That's right.

Nonlinearity has been a growing trend in gaming for years, now found heavily in most western RPGs and RPG hybrids (Fallout). Apparently, gamers love to "craft their own stories" by wandering around large, empty areas with no specific goal or task in mind.

First of all, there is no such thing as "freedom" in games. Everything you're doing is done within the preconstructed framework designed by the programmers beforehand. If there are two choices presented to the gamer, both had to be scripted and designed separately, and yet you (barring replaying the game for a second time, which is a ridiculous thing to expect the player to do) only get to experience one, which could have been a better one if the developer had simply decided to sink their full resources into a singular focus. Moreover, most games shepherd the player to a particular climax or two, so very few choices have any real consequences. Who the fuck cares if you killed or saved the little sisters in Bioshock? It had almost no long-term effect on the gameplay, and both endings sucked.

Moreover, the whole "point" of nonlinearity is to let the player "decide" things, and have more control over their experience. In the end, however, players are not storytellers. They lack comprehension in plot construction, meaningful character interactions, pacing, and most other things that make a story enjoyable. I am content to see the visions of the designers of this game, the leagues of artists and writers who worked on this singular goal, and I am intrigued to see where they take me.

In the end, the only true "freedom" in constructing your own gaming experience is an open code editor and a blank, white screen. Nonlinearity in gaming should go the way of Choose-Your-Own-Adventure novels...the firepit. Is anyone else out there in agreement? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!

(Disclaimer: I refer to nonlinearity in a story/game direction sense, not in a gameplay sense. Branching skill trees rock.)
 
Why not "I hate games that are not linear"? :|

I partially agree. There is a lot of meandering and wandering around that I did in Mercenaries 2.

I miss Final Fight. :(
 

Varna

Member
This is the failing of current generation developers, not the concept itself.

In RPG's especially I notice this. Story and gameplay are completely disconnected.
 

larvi

Member
I completely disagree, I hate rigid story telling in games. If I want that I would just a soon read a book because the story/plot/character development/and everything else narrative wise will be better than in a game.

What I didn't like about Oblivion was that no matter where you went the monsters scaled to your level. That takes the fun of wandering off the beaten path and getting your ass handed to you because you aren't ready yet.
 

sykoex

Lost all credibility.
I agree to a point. When a game gives me so many choices, it starts to feel like no one choice really means much anymore.
 
I like it because I don't feel confined. I can do things when I feel like, and how I feel like.

Sure, you don't get FULL freedom, but regardless, it's a lot better in my opinon than being planted at the beginning of a level, then going through a corridor the entire damn time. Even COD4 Single player campaing is all corridors. Even when they give you the "feeling" that you're outside, you're really just going through a long hallway.

In fact, if it wasn't for these "open world" "non-linear" games, I probably would have gotten bored of gaming a while ago.

Most of these games give you options and I like that. I got so damn tired of having my hand held through games for so many years. Just go "straight" and if you run across dead bodies, you've been there before. That just gets so boring to me.

There are a number of creative ways to complete the story in Dead Rising for example. You just have to be a good problem solver and the game design ALLOWS you to get creative. If you don't get creative with it, you die.
 
The problem isn't nonlinearity in games, the problem is that the shitty console games you are playing offer incredibly limited/worthless choices that don't really add much to the experience.
 

sh4mike

Member
Interesting to see (J)RPG fans who dislike opportunities to play the role in-game.

Fallout 3 better be the future.
 

Varna

Member
Teknopathetic said:
The problem isn't nonlinearity in games, the problem is that the shitty console games you are playing offer incredibly limited/worthless choices that don't really add much to the experience.

Yeah. I would like to say it's not limited to console... but what's was the last non-linear PC exclusive (or that came out for at the very least)?

Fallout 3 better be the future.

Fallout 3 is part of the problem. Your actions mean shit.
 

Feep

Banned
Class_A_Ninja said:
Why can't you just not play the games? Why do they need to go away because you don't like them?

Your life must be tough.
Are you unfamiliar with the concept of discussion?

Teknopathetic said:
The problem isn't nonlinearity in games, the problem is that the shitty console games you are playing offer incredibly limited/worthless choices that don't really add much to the experience.
Maybe. Admittedly, the only nonlinear PC game I've played in the last five years was Oblivion, which I hated. I felt completely aimless, and as much as there was to do, none of it felt important. It was isolating and barren.

Andrex said:
I agree, to a point. I like sidequests in long games like RPGs.
So do I. These are optional parts of a game, not branching; I do not have to sacrifice one option for another. The sidequests themselves are usually linear. Heck, I even like the World of Ruin in FFVI.
 

ThatObviousUser

ὁ αἴσχιστος παῖς εἶ
I agree, to a point. I like sidequests in long games like RPGs.

RE4 is almost entirely linear, and I think that's why it gets such high accolades (as you said, the developers chose to streamline a single path as much as possible instead of letting you decide).
 
I completely agree.

For instance, in Oblivion, I really liked the game until I got out of the underground and into the outside world. By that point, I was just overwhelmed and I quit. :(
 

Fredescu

Member
I don't hate non linear games, but my all time favourite games are all linear. I think it's harder to do "open world" right than it is to do linear right.
 
"Maybe. Admittedly, the only nonlinear PC game I've played in the last five years was Oblivion, which I hated. I felt completely aimless, and as much as there was to do, none of it felt important. It was isolating and barren."


Oblivion was very obviously designed with consoles in mind. Granted, Morrowind was most definitely designed for PC first and foremost and some would argue that it has (some) similar issues, but there definitely felt like a bit more weight to actions in Morrowind than Oblivion.
 

JdFoX187

Banned
I think with the success of GTA, every game developer and his cousin's dog want to make everything as close to sandbox as they can get. I how games like Bad Company and Halo do it where you have these wide open areas, but have a general path you have to follow from Point A to Point B. And how you get there, whether it be by vehicle, on foot, etc. is all on you.
 

Dizzan

MINI Member
GTAIV would have done my head in if there was no GPS to guide me.

And Uncharted is my favourite game, possibly ever.

Give me linearity any day of the week. I'm not a 12 year old with hours and hours of free time to memorise a map layout *cough*Burnout Paradise*cough*. I need short bursts of intense entertainment from games these days.

Fuck open worlds and bring on more linear games like Uncharted 2, God of War III and Killzone 2. God I hope ND doesn't listen to the people that want more exploration in Uncharted 2. More puzzles, yes but not more exploration.
 
Teknopathetic said:
The problem isn't nonlinearity in games, the problem is that the shitty console games you are playing offer incredibly limited/worthless choices that don't really add much to the experience.

high five

but what's was the last non-linear PC exclusive (or that came out for at the very least)?

mount and blade and x3 terran conflict are two very recent PC releases that capture teknopathetic's point. Console games just can't get over the hump of really creating games where the player, if they choose, can design their own goals and work completely with just the game simulation's emergent features. At some point you're dragged back to some set-in-stone checkpoint along the game's primary path.
 

Core407

Banned
Pimpbaa said:
The more linear a game is, the more I hate it. Linear games are made and played by the unimaginative.

I think for a game to be linear, it has to rely more on it's story and presentation and etc to draw the player while an open-ended game relies more on mechanics.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Gantz said:
I hate games where you go from point A to point B with no room to explore.
Exploration's fine to me only if it serves a point. If you just end up getting shot by a gang of freaks and find a bunch of low value trash when you wander... Eh.

Nonlinearity is only really cool when being able to go anywhere still generates a story. If they had NPC's etc that went off and did their own thing, and created multiple potential story threads on their own, it would feel much richer than idle wandering that may or may not trip a random delivery boy quest or whatever.

If the game doesn't supply the story, you're either left to make up a story by yourself or you just wander with the growing sense that you've accomplished nothing.
 

Pimpbaa

Member
Core407 said:
I think for a game to be linear, it has to rely more on it's story and presentation and etc to draw the player while an open-ended game relies more on mechanics.

For a game that is linear, the developer doesn't have to worry about the player doing something different from the norm or picking dialog choices that have an effect on the outcome.
 

JBuccCP

Member
I don't mind linearity or non linearity. Both can be done well. In general I like games where I can have an effect on the story. Scriptedness to the extent that Call of Duty takes it should be avoided like the plague.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
I disagree, if the game is good and worth replaying several times over. I agree though, when it's not worth it ;D
 

Pimpbaa

Member
Dizzan said:
I'm not a 12 year old with hours and hours of free time to memorise a map layout *cough*Burnout Paradise*cough*.

I never memorized the layout in Burnout Paradise, and I did well in the game.

I need short bursts of intense entertainment from games these days.

Then go get iphone/ipod touch. Lots of short bursts of entertainment. Console gaming is not for you.
 

Core407

Banned
Pimpbaa said:
For a game that is linear, the developer doesn't have to worry about the player doing something different from the norm or picking dialog choices that have an effect on the outcome.

Well when I think of non-linear games, I don't think of branching dialog as something that fits in that category. For me, open-ended games let you go about the world in your own way and that's it. Games like Morrowind, Oblivion, etc are open-ended but in reality, you can't do much to really change the game with the way you play your character.
 

bistromathics

facing a bright new dawn
Feep said:
Moreover, most games shepherd the player to a particular climax or two, so very few choices have any real consequences. Who the fuck cares if you killed or saved the little sisters in Bioshock? It had almost no long-term effect on the gameplay, and both endings sucked.

Choice is what makes games interactive. The slippery slope the OP is on is obvious - he just wants the intro sequence to hl2 w/ mouselook off.

The hard part is making the choices feel natural (or better yet, transparent) to the player.
 
Feep said:
Moreover, the whole "point" of nonlinearity is to let the player "decide" things, and have more control over their experience. In the end, however, players are not storytellers. They lack comprehension in plot construction, meaningful character interactions, pacing, and most other things that make a story enjoyable. I am content to see the visions of the designers of this game, the leagues of artists and writers who worked on this singular goal, and I am intrigued to see where they take me.

The fundamental concept on which all games are built is interactivity, which means all games are nonlinear by definition. The only variable is to what degree. Sounds like you should stick to film.
 

Pimpbaa

Member
Core407 said:
Well when I think of non-linear games, I don't think of branching dialog as something that fits in that category. For me, open-ended games let you go about the world in your own way and that's it. Games like Morrowind, Oblivion, etc are open-ended but in reality, you can't do much to really change the game with the way you play your character.

Fallout 3 has both. The best rpg of last year as a result.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Pimpbaa said:
The more linear a game is, the more I hate it. Linear games are made and played by the unimaginative.

I think it's completely the opposite. These open world games just end up feeling like te developers threw in a bunch of shit that doesn't matter for the sake of "look what you can do!!!"

No. It takes much more imagination to completely capture a player to play a game you would like them to play and enjoy while giving them just enough freedom to feel like you can a lot in the game. It takes much more imagination, talent and direction to accomplish this. Open world is a crutch, especially on consoles.

Take a game like Super Mario Galaxy. The developers had a clear vision of what they wanted to present you with, offered wonderful imagination and gave the player just enough wiggle room to play around within the controlled world they set up for you. Compared to a lot of these nonlinear games, they just feel lazy and thrown together in comparsion.
 

Feep

Banned
bistromathics said:
Choice is what makes games interactive. The slippery slope the OP is on is obvious - he just wants the intro sequence to hl2 w/ mouselook off.

The hard part is making the choices feel natural (or better yet, transparent) to the player.
Nonlinearity in gameplay is fine. It's fun to decide whether or not you can take down an enemy via stealth, or guns-blazing, or to figure out the best ambush point on a map, or to equip your player with the most effective armor and accessories for a certain battle. I'm talking about stuff like Bioshock and Oblivion, which offer choices in story and supposedly dictate the direction of the game, but either 1) Don't or 2) Suck.
 

sh4mike

Member
It really depends on the game type.

For action games, I generally want to switch on the game and kill things. In this regard, NG2 is superior to NGB, since I don't like puzzles slowing down my action needs. EDF is also my preferred type. Pick a weapon, pick a stage, pick a difficulty, and kill stuff in a tight 5-10 minute set-piece.

But RPGs are another story. (Linear) JRPGs at their best are like a great movie, while (non-linear) WRPGs at their best are like a role-playing game.

There are times in a open-ended game when you want to quickly get back into the main quest. A proper journal system helps, as do arrows (Bioshock) and trails (Fable 2) to get you moving in the right direction.

Agree on the point that it's harder to do an open-world game right, although these games are improving every year (while linear RPGs are the same experience with flashier graphics every year). Shoot me for preferring Witcher to Torment.
 

Core407

Banned
Pimpbaa said:
Fallout 3 has both. The best rpg of last year as a result.

Really? I thought Fallout 3 was a complete let down. It played like an Oblivion mod and the whole atmosphere was non-existent. I like the idea of open-ended game play but right now it's not being done well enough. Developers are thinking too big and as a result, theres no depth to it really. I'd like to see a linear game employee non-linear aspects to its game play.
 

Fredescu

Member
BobJustBob said:
The fundamental concept on which all games are built is interactivity, which means all games are nonlinear by definition.
That doesn't follow at all. Everyone can spot an example of a "linear game" and a "non-linear game", probably even you. That there are grey areas in the middle and that some games have elements of both doesn't invalidate the concept of a linear game.
 

Patryn

Member
I'm a big fan of nonlinearity, but generally only if the game eases a player into it and then gives a clear pointer to where the "main" path is. For example, I think Oblivion worked well by easing a player through some linear exploration in the sewers to allow a player to get a handle on the game mechanics before unveiling the world. Of course, even then the player clearly knew where to go to advance the main story.

Whereas in Morrowind, when I first played it, I don't think the game did enough to make a player feel comfortable with the game mechanics before dumping them into the wide world. I got overwhelmed and quit within the first hour. However, when I went back after having beaten Oblivion, I was much more comfortable.

I really think players have to be comfortable with a game before they're ready to full interact with the world.
 

bistromathics

facing a bright new dawn
Feep said:
Nonlinearity in gameplay is fine. It's fun to decide whether or not you can take down an enemy via stealth, or guns-blazing, or to figure out the best ambush point on a map, or to equip your player with the most effective armor and accessories for a certain battle. I'm talking about stuff like Bioshock and Oblivion, which offer choices in story and supposedly dictate the direction of the game, but either 1) Don't or 2) Suck.

You're right, but your beef is with "bad design choices involving nonlinearity". I'm not too fond of bad design choices involving anything.
 
It depends, if it's "freedom" like in Radiata stories where halfway through the game you
have to choose to follow the girl or stay in the city
then yeah, that's irritating.

But I find certain "freedoms" like choosing to be a nice guy or an asshole in ME for instance, refreshing.
 

Cycloptis

Member
Of course you wouldn't get true control over the game's story, but that's not the point. The point is to give the illusion of that power, not only by presenting such opportunities but by showing the results of those choices.

It's not a new concept, and I wouldn't judge it by the recent offerings such as Fallout 3.

As for the benefits...well it does wonders for replayability, it's empowering when done correctly, and it's another way in which a game can be interactive, which imo is a huge plus.

(I'm also not sure if sandbox and non-linear should be interchangeable.)
 
D

Deleted member 30609

Unconfirmed Member
A year ago I would've agreed completely, but recently I've started taking a shine to games like Far Cry 2, Fallout 3 and even Oblivion (which, while I still don't love it, I have warmed up to).

My favorite games will always be tight, well-paced linear games. Non linear games are good distractions every now and again, but I've never actually played one that has sold me on the concept of good pacing when a player can go and do whatever they want.
 

Feep

Banned
bistromathics said:
You're right, but your beef is with "bad design choices involving nonlinearity". I'm not too fond of bad design choices involving anything.
I just think that these design choices ALWAYS suck, because they would be better focusing their resources into one, awesome possibility instead of ten lame ones. Unless procedural AI makes a quantum leap, and your choices can truly create a unique ending that need not be pre-made by a developer, I'll feel gypped, because I won't get to see all the content that the developer made.
 

Pimpbaa

Member
Kintaro said:
I think it's completely the opposite. These open world games just end up feeling like te developers threw in a bunch of shit that doesn't matter for the sake of "look what you can do!!!"

No. It takes much more imagination to completely capture a player to play a game you would like them to play and enjoy while giving them just enough freedom to feel like you can a lot in the game. It takes much more imagination, talent and direction to accomplish this. Open world is a crutch, especially on consoles.

Take a game like Super Mario Galaxy. The developers had a clear vision of what they wanted to present you with, offered wonderful imagination and gave the player just enough wiggle room to play around within the controlled world they set up for you. Compared to a lot of these nonlinear games, they just feel lazy and thrown together in comparsion.

I disagree because it takes a lot more effort to keep a player entertained in a non-linear game. Throwing in a bunch of shit that doesn't matter for the sake of "look what you can do!!!" doesn't work and results in a shitty game (see Saint's Row 2).
 

Doytch

Member
Teknopathetic said:
The problem isn't nonlinearity in games, the problem is that the shitty console games you are playing offer incredibly limited/worthless choices that don't really add much to the experience.

EFF YEAH!

Deus Ex has been mentioned, and I think MotB did a really good job offering you the choice of how to play the game - going all out spirit eater or supressing it.
 

Awntawn

Member
It may be an unpopular view, but I agree with you. I hate it even more when it's not so much "room for exploration" as it is "room for failure." As in "you have failed to unlock the best best uber ending because you have failed to do" something retarded during your playthrough. Yes, Tri-Ace, I'm looking at you. You're guaranteeing official strategy guide sales because of your intentionally shitty incomplete game design. Don't think I can't see what you're doing.
 
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