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[LittlePineWeasel]

(flame shield engage..)

Wouldn't this game have been developed on the less 1080p friendly original SDK?

(back to lurking.)

 

[LukasTaves]

Yup, you're right. I didn't notice the absurd clock speed of the 360's RAM. Funny enough when looking it up I came across a blog posting my Major Nelson claiming real term bandwidth is everything [360 vs PS3].


The picture is a simplification, but it's right. Most people are just using it as a frame buffer atm (how it was mostly used in the 360. Eventually it'll be used better to store frequently requested data, but 32GB is slim pickings in a 1080P60 HD world with advanced shaders and terrible large assets.

Some smart people will do some amazing things for it, but outside of first party titles I actually expect the gulf to widen. 3rd party devs; ain't nobody got time for that s**t,

(unless they build something into their own engines and dev tools to leverage across multiple projects)

Yeah, framebuffer is probably going to be the biggest esram usage (as it was on 360), but even then it shouldn't make DDR3 a bottleneck... Using 360 as an example: The edram was used for the bandwidth intensive operations from the ROPs, while the main ram was free to be used for data, like textures...

There is something incredibly wrong right now with the bone though, dunno where the problem lies (Ms has set up themselves a very complex architecture to pull of), but as of now xbone is struggling a lot more with resolution than it should, compared to 360's edram size and target framebuffer resolution. (If you consider that xbone has 3 times the main ram bandwidth and 3.2 times the esram size, despite having a 2.25 higher target framebuffer size, it should fare better at 1080p than 360 at 720p, not significantly worse as we are seeing)

 

[kyser73]

Maybe it's a Frostbite issue. So far we've had 1080/30 on all three, 900-720/60 on P4One and now this. Is there anything else out in Frostbite on either console?

But the seeing GZ, maybe not.

 

[MercuryLS]

I can't believe how much MS fucked up when it came to the performance of this machine. How the hell did they think that hitting 1080p native for the majority of games this gen wasn't a top priority? The old Xbox executives (Allard, Fries, et al) wouldn't have let this shit happen.

Embarrassing.

 

[StuBurns]

Actually a lot of Nintendo games on Wii U are 1080p/60fps

I think imagine quality does matter, but I'd have to fall on the Microsoft PR side in relation to the pure numbers not being all that important. PS3 launched with 1080p/60fps games, Ridge Racer for example, it really doesn't say all that much.

I think some of the XBO titles are pretty embarrassing technically, TitanFall for example, but a lot of the time, I think people are only disappointed in relation to the PS4's performance, not just the pure game itself.

 

[d9b]

Nope, not possible. If that were the case, they would need to cut down significantly on the effects, the texture resolution, the complexity of the geometry, etc... Its really not worth it.

It's called Forza5.

 

[TheCloser]

Yeah, framebuffer is probably going to be the biggest esram usage (as it was on 360), but even then it shouldn't make DDR3 a bottleneck... Using 360 as an example: The edram was used for the bandwidth intensive operations from the ROPs, while the main ram was free to be used for data, like textures...

There is something incredibly wrong right now with the bone though, dunno where the problem lies (Ms has set up themselves a very complex architecture to pull of), but as of now xbone is struggling a lot more with resolution than it should, compared to 360's edram size and target framebuffer resolution. (If you consider that xbone has 3 times the main ram bandwidth and 3.2 times the esram size, despite having a 2.25 higher target framebuffer size, it should fare better at 1080p than 360 at 720p, not significantly worse as we are seeing)

The games became more demanding and the complexity increased. I mean, killzone shadow fall is doing some ray tracing. Do you know how expensive that is? It requires a lot more power than last gen games. Xbox one shouldn't have a problem with last gen games running at 1080p if the bar stayed the same. This is why games like Fifa and NBA live have no issues running at 1080p.

 

[Xenon]

Random photo:

Simple fix to get it to 1080p and it even looks more cinematic.

 

[Kiant]

Spoiler

but..but the sky is worse in the PS4 version

Spoiler

/s

 

[TheCloser]

It's called Forza5.

It looks nearly indistinguishable from Forza 4 and i consider it a cross gen game at best. I have played this game and it is not impressive at all. Ryse is the best looking game on xbox one. Forza 5 is just slightly better looking than Titan Fall in my opinion.

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

This probably isn't accurate, but since no one is really giving you an image, I thought I'd help out homie

This reminds me of the horrible comparisons Sony used to make to get people to upgrade to blu-ray by making the DVD version use composite and fucking up all of the PQ settings. Complete horseshit.

 

[Reallink]

They couldn't because they needed 8GB minimum for Apps/Snap/3OS/Kinect. DDR3 was the only cost effective option when designing it.

Just like they can't have their cake and eat it too. They chose this. Period. Stop the parity BS, because you didn't design and plan it for that.

Stop lying about the power and put up or shut up about that "vision" that was the reason in the first place. Visions are nice, but lets see implementations that make gamers go, "sure, I get it, its worth it". Execute!

The worst part is the snapping and multi-tasking doesn't even work that well. Trying to pull up IE while a game is loading for instance (something I attempted frequently during TF Beta and Forza 5's god awful loads) generally results in IE freezing, refusing to launch, running like a first gen netbook, or just straight up dumping memory resulting in nothing but a white screen. Not really sure what the cause is, perhaps the CPU can't handle multiple tasks or something in practice.

 

[Bgamer90]

I can't believe how much MS fucked up when it came to the performance of this machine. How the hell did they think that hitting 1080p native for the majority of games this gen wasn't a top priority? The old Xbox executives (Allard, Fries, et al) wouldn't have let this shit happen.

Embarrassing.

The majority of Xbox One games are 1080p though.

Things are getting close to that not being true however... at least from the games I know of.

 

[TheCloser]

Simple fix to get it to 1080p and it even looks more cinematic.

I actually get it. hahahaha

Spoiler

but 1920x800 > 1600x900 .

 

[Asd202]

I think Tim Dog has lost it. His account has been suspended .

 

[Liquid-Swords]

Maybe they can make a Sega 32x or N64 expansion pack like add on. "UNLEASH THE POWER OF FULL 1080P GAMES"

 

[d9b]

It looks nearly indistinguishable from Forza 4 and i consider it a cross gen game at best. I have played this game and it is not impressive at all. Ryse is the best looking game on xbox one. Forza 5 is just slightly better looking than Titan Fall in my opinion.

My comment was in regard to " cut down significantly on the effects, the texture resolution, the complexity of the geometry, etc."..
They did exactly that to reach 1080p in Forza5.

 

[pretty done]

This console has provided me with hours of entertainment and I don't even own one. Well played MS/Penello/Nelson.

 

[xxracerxx]

The majority of Xbox One games are 1080p though.

Things are getting close to that not being true however... at least from the games I know of.

Majority is a rather strong term...at least according to this list from IGN:

PS4 vs. Xbox One Native Resolutions and Framerates

 

[MercuryLS]

The majority of Xbox One games are 1080p though.

Things are getting close to that not being true however... at least from the games I know of.

I meant 90%+. The hardware should be able to hit that resolution with next-gen assets without issue.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

This is getting embarrassing.

Oh who am I kidding, Microsoft have no shame.

 

[LukasTaves]

The games became more demanding and the complexity increased. I mean, killzone shadow fall is doing some ray tracing. Do you know how expensive that is? It requires a lot more power than last gen games. Xbox one shouldn't have a problem with last gen games running at 1080p if the bar stayed the same. This is why games like Fifa and NBA live have no issues running at 1080p.

KZ: SF does ray casting, on screen space, for local reflections. That's way less demanding than a ray tracing renderer, and that other engines like Cry Engine 3 also does (even on last gen consoles, if I'm not mistaken).

But even if it wasn't the case, pooling the framebuffer for more data does not makes the framebuffer larger, it would make the total bandwidth usage increase, but the buffer size should be the same. (that is assuming that the performance issue xbone is seeing is because people are simply not being able to fill all their buffers into the esram)...

My main point was that right now there's clearly a performance issue, that's undeniable, but I don't think there should be, not to that degree at least... But like I said before, Ms has created for themselves some major potential performance blackholes: All the hardware access is virtualized, on top of that they have a VM running on top of another VM, the gpu has to serve two different OSes at the same time, there's that talk that xbone gpu drivers are a lot closer to W8 than 360, and has huge overhead... It's hard to point the culprit without knowing exactly what is causing the issue, but looking at the numbers, I really don't think it should be struggling this much (Specially because it is struggling with some last gen ports too)

 

[Anion]

Okay, at least it's not 720p...all we need is less that and more 900p or greater.
I seriously would have been disappointed if it was 720p since it's a colorful game. Not that the resolution would stop me, but it would have been disappointing nonetheless

 

[Reallink]

My comment was in regard to " cut down significantly on the effects, the texture resolution, the complexity of the geometry, etc."..
They did exactly that to reach 1080p in Forza5.

It wasn't worth it either, the game looks like shit during gameplay. The trees, crowds, and texture filtering are straight up embarrassing. They should have gone with 900p or some oddball >720p resolution (a la TF) if it would have allowed them to come closer to the bullshot builds they showed at the unveil, or even the E3 demo.

 

[Bgamer90]

Majority is a rather strong term...at least according to this list from IGN:

PS4 vs. Xbox One Native Resolutions and Framerates

Majority is over half so what I said is true.

IGN's list is also missing games like Madden, NBA Live, and others for some reason.

 

[xXDGFXx]

It's called Forza5.

Which hardly has any significant details outside of the cars and the most intensive part is the physics, which is still isolated to the cars. Iill admit that it's beautiful and performs really well, but racing and fighting games aren't genres you can boast about as achievements for resolution and framerate.

 

[Mass Effect]

Majority is a rather strong term...at least according to this list from IGN:

PS4 vs. Xbox One Native Resolutions and Framerates

I counted 9/20 being 1080p (could be wrong?), just in case you don't feel like counting. Doesn't have some titles like Strider, Crimson Dragon, or LocoCycle on that list though.

 

[Chobel]

Majority is a rather strong term...at least according to this list from IGN:

PS4 vs. Xbox One Native Resolutions and Framerates

10 games are 1080p and 10 are not. (This assuming dying light is really 1080p)

But the list is missing some games (Max, lococycle, Crimson Dragon...)

 

[xxracerxx]

Majority is over half so what I said is true.

IGN's list is also missing games like Madden, NBA Live, and others for some reason.

I know that is the technical term for majority, but to be closer to the half mark than the 80% of games mark is just awful right now.

 

[Shin-Ra]

Lazy, preferential treatment, SDK, 8%, MANGOS!

 

[Rizzi]

At least it's not 720p?
Right guys?

 

[Timu]

Majority is a rather strong term...at least according to this list from IGN:

PS4 vs. Xbox One Native Resolutions and Framerates

This is missing quite a bit of games.

 

[CCIE]

Any Xbox owner that expects 1080p is setting themselves up for disappointment. If performance is what you want, you aren't going to find it on XB1

 

[SwiftDeath]

KZ: SF does ray casting, on screen space, for local reflections. That's way less demanding than a ray tracing renderer, and that other engines like Cry Engine 3 also does (even on last gen consoles, if I'm not mistaken).

But even if it wasn't the case, pooling the framebuffer for more data does not makes the framebuffer larger, it would make the total bandwidth usage increase, but the buffer size should be the same. (that is assuming that the performance issue xbone is seeing is because people are simply not being able to fill all their buffers into the esram)...

My main point was that right now there's clearly a performance issue, that's undeniable, but I don't think there should be, not to that degree at least... But like I said before, Ms has created for themselves some major potential performance blackholes: All the hardware access is virtualized, on top of that they have a VM running on top of another VM, the gpu has to serve two different OSes at the same time, there's that talk that xbone gpu drivers are a lot closer to W8 than 360, and has huge overhead... It's hard to point the culprit without knowing exactly what is causing the issue, but looking at the numbers, I really don't think it should be struggling this much (Specially because it is struggling with some last gen ports too)

While I actually agree that the differences we've been seeing as of late seem larger then they should be based on the specs I do think the ESram is causing problems with higher resolution games that try to push higher framerates, better AA, or expensive effects

After all we've heard from an expert that it's likely not a very friendly solution to higher resolutions with any reasonable AA solution

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=510076

Working here assuming the Eurogamer Article is close to correct. On this platform I'd be concerned with memory bandwidth. Only DDR3 for system/GPU memory pared with 32MB of "ESRAM" sounds troubling....If this GPU is pre-GCN with a serious performance gap to PS4, then this next Xbox will act like a boat anchor, dragging down the min-spec target for cross-platform next-generation games.

A fast GDDR5 will be the desired option for developers. All the interesting cases for good anti-aliasing require a large amount of bandwidth and RAM. A tiny 32MB chunk of ESRAM will not fit that need even for forward rendering at 1080p. I think some developers could hit 1080p@60fps with the rumored Orbis specs even with good AA. My personal project is targeting 1080p@60fps with great AA on a 560ti which is a little slower than the rumored Orbis specs. There is no way my engine would hit that target on the rumored 720 specs. Ultimately on Orbis I guess devs target 1080p/30fps (with some motion blur) and leverage the lower latency OS stack and scan out at 60fps (double scan frames) to provide a really great lower-latency experience. Maybe the same title on 720 would render at 720p/30fps, and maybe Microsoft is dedicating a few CPU hardware threads to the GPU driver stack to remove the latency problem (assuming this is a "Windows" OS under the covers).

 

[xxracerxx]

Yeah, I can't find a list of all this gen released games for some reason. You would think GAF would have created one by now.

 

[Neuromancer]

This console has provided me with hours of entertainment and I don't even own one. Well played MS/Penello/Nelson.

The Xbox One is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[OmahaG8]

[laughter intensifies]

 

[Reallink]

This console has provided me with hours of entertainment and I don't even own one. Well played MS/Penello/Nelson.

Over delivering value.

 

[SwiftDeath]

Yeah, I can't find a list of all this gen released games for some reason. You would think GAF would have created one by now.

Not a complete list but probably better than IGN's list

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=680237

 

[Bgamer90]

Any Xbox owner that expects 1080p is setting themselves up for disappointment. If performance is what you want, you aren't going to find it on XB1

Sports, racers, platformers, and (smaller) digital download only titles will more than likely stay at 1080p.

"AAA" action heavy games and shooters though are up in the air. Very few will be 1080p/60 FPS on both consoles. Most will probably have lower resolution on Xbox One if framerate is the same on both consoles (mostly 1080p vs. 900p; very few cases of 1080p vs. 720p). Same resolution on both consoles for those games would more than likely mean a lower framerate on Xbox One.

 

[ahuffman]

This console has provided me with hours of entertainment and I don't even own one. Well played MS/Penello/Nelson.

So true. I do own one, but regardless I have been laughing harder in the last few months than I have in a long while, thanks guys!

 

[StuBurns]

Most will probably have lower resolution on Xbox One if framerate is the same on both consoles (mostly 1080p vs. 900p; very few cases of 1080p vs. 720p). Same resolution on both consoles for those games would more than likely mean a lower framerate on Xbox One.

What's that based on? We've seen a couple of action games be 1080p/720p, Ghosts, Ground Zeroes, how many 1080p/900p splits have there been? AC4?

 

[Demon Ice]

I wonder if the rumored Halo 2 Anniversary will even hit 1080p60 on XB1.

 

[TheCloser]

KZ: SF does ray casting, on screen space, for local reflections. That's way less demanding than a ray tracing renderer, and that other engines like Cry Engine 3 also does (even on last gen consoles, if I'm not mistaken).

But even if it wasn't the case, pooling the framebuffer for more data does not makes the framebuffer larger, it would make the total bandwidth usage increase, but the buffer size should be the same. (that is assuming that the performance issue xbone is seeing is because people are simply not being able to fill all their buffers into the esram)...

My main point was that right now there's clearly a performance issue, that's undeniable, but I don't think there should be, not to that degree at least... But like I said before, Ms has created for themselves some major potential performance blackholes: All the hardware access is virtualized, on top of that they have a VM running on top of another VM, the gpu has to serve two different OSes at the same time, there's that talk that xbone gpu drivers are a lot closer to W8 than 360, and has huge overhead... It's hard to point the culprit without knowing exactly what is causing the issue, but looking at the numbers, I really don't think it should be struggling this much (Specially because it is struggling with some last gen ports too)

There was some talk that they released a patch to reduce the overhead from 10% to 2% but i mentioned this earlier when i found out that the xbox one has several OSes. Not having direct access to the hardware is most likely the reason and i doubt that they will be able to fix it. One of the reasons consoles can attempt to stay competitive while having weaker hardware is due to the fact that the devs have direct access to the hardware. Having direct access does not increase the hardware power but it does two things:

1) it allows you to fully understand the hardware you have and its limitations
2) It allows you to build and design your game around its limitations to get the best possible results.

I don't think they can fix this at all.

 

[Wishmaster92]

So much for packing in a "premium" 4k resolution cable when games can't even hit 1080p.

Thanks Major..

Spoiler

Yes this is sarcasm.

 

[AlucardGV]

but..but the sky is worse in the PS4 version

Spoiler

/s

ps4 has no cloud

oh shit tim dog got suspended

 

[SwiftDeath]

nevermind

 

[Bgamer90]

What's that based on? We've seen a couple of action games be 1080p/720p, Ghosts, Ground Zeroes, how many 1080p/900p splits have there been? AC4?

MGS and COD are the only two multiplats that are 1080p vs. 720p that I know off. I'm expecting the next COD to be at least 900p on the Xbox One due to how much things blew up with the 720p news.

1080p vs. 900p you have AC4, and Thief. I think Watch_Dogs may fit into that too... we'll see though.

 

[True Underdog]

Spoiler

Power of the cloud.

Edit: Beaten by a mile.

 

[d9b]

It wasn't worth it either, the game looks like shit during gameplay. The trees, crowds, and texture filtering are straight up embarrassing. They should have gone with 900p or some oddball >720p resolution (a la TF) if it would have allowed them to come closer to the bullshot builds they showed at the unveil, or even the E3 demo.

That is my point.