Support NeoGAF

[zephervack]

Early/mid game spoilers below that highlight how detrimental the lighting changes are:

Spoiler

in No Man's Wharf, there is a giant torch you can light hanging from the ceiling by using a Pharros Lockstone. Considering this is one of the first truly brutal areas of the game, finding this giant torch would basically be a momentous, triumphant step forward, as it lights the whole area. With the original lighting I imagine this could have been a pretty iconic moment, as it would have bathed a huge pitch-black area in firelight.

As it stands, though, it makes a few enemies slightly annoyed at the fire and back off a bit. It's a total waste of a Lockstone. You can see everything without torches, so lighting the giant one is pointless.

This is definitely the worse outcome of all of this, too bad the gameplay is getting affected by it, how awesome would the sense of achievement be

Spoiler

when all of teh sudden you dont need to use a torch because you turned that thing on.

 

[TheFNEffecT]

I am waiting my self, regardless of how it looks like, It will look better on PC and allow you do to crazy stuff like this:


Triple screen, texture mods, lightning mods, etc.

Like I mentioned earlier, if it ends up not looking how it looked from that earl footage....someone will make try to make it look like it haha.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

My only hope that even one of the first mods on PC is to make the game as dark as the original demo.

 

[Garcia]

Early/mid game spoilers below that highlight how detrimental the lighting changes are:

Spoiler

in No Man's Wharf, there is a giant torch you can light hanging from the ceiling by using a Pharros Lockstone. Considering this is one of the first truly brutal areas of the game, finding this giant torch would basically be a momentous, triumphant step forward, as it lights the whole area. With the original lighting I imagine this could have been a pretty iconic moment, as it would have bathed a huge pitch-black area in firelight.

As it stands, though, it makes a few enemies slightly annoyed at the fire and back off a bit. It's a total waste of a Lockstone. You can see everything without torches, so lighting the giant one is pointless.

The potential is enormous. The torch mechanic was really supposed to be crucial.

 

[JoeFenix]

Early/mid game spoilers below that highlight how detrimental the lighting changes are:

Spoiler

in No Man's Wharf, there is a giant torch you can light hanging from the ceiling by using a Pharros Lockstone. Considering this is one of the first truly brutal areas of the game, finding this giant torch would basically be a momentous, triumphant step forward, as it lights the whole area. With the original lighting I imagine this could have been a pretty iconic moment, as it would have bathed a huge pitch-black area in firelight.

As it stands, though, it makes a few enemies slightly annoyed at the fire and back off a bit. It's a total waste of a Lockstone. You can see everything without torches, so lighting the giant one is pointless.

God damn dude, that sounds truly awful.

I mean you can't just turn a blind eye to this stuff, it completely changes the game and all the lighting dependent gameplay features just feel like vestigial reminders of what the game was once supposed to be.

Frustrating, it's like the game does its best to constantly remind you that something is missing.

 

[zephervack]

Like I mentioned earlier, if it ends up not looking how it looked from that earl footage....someone will make try to make it look like it haha.

To some extent, some stuff you just cant do with mods, the changes between the version are just too damn much.

For example, you cant mod in light sources, or geometry changes unless your game supports heavy modding like Skyrim.

 

[DeBurgo]

No. Gamers have expectations and make buying decisions based on material released by the devs/publishers. Reviews should be clear about whether the final product matches that material or not.

Speak for yourself. I don't, and haven't done this for a long time. It baffles me that so many other gamers apparently still do this.

Honestly if you're a person that's dead set on purchasing a game before a review comes out, you don't care about reviews when it comes to make buying decisions (which is actually what reviews are for, and why they have scores). You just want your bias confirmed -- bias that has been carefully cultivated by the PR wing of a publisher.

And when your particular bias is out of step with reality, threads like this happen.

 

[dubq]

Yeah this is pretty close to total disaster territory. I'm sure theres a good game there still, but they have rushed this out after carving an entire element out of the game last minute and thats frankly fucking ridiculous.

Is there a way to petition them to add it back in? Twitter? I seriously can't think of a legit reason why it would be cut since it's such a simple mechanic. This is something that should be added back in a patch, IMO, as it sounds like it would add a lot more atmosphere to the game.

 

[Stet]

so for you the review of a product isn't really about the product, it's about your pre-conceived notions of what the product should be and your feelings about the company who made it. that's not a review at all and it's the same kind of subjective bias that people are already bitching about in the industry.

Disagree. If those preconceived notions are based on nothing but ephemeral opinion, then sure it's no basis for a review. But the way a product is marketed is as integral to the experience as the product itself. It makes a difference between disappointment and satisfaction. How else are you going to teach gaming publishers that shady advertising practices aren't acceptable?

In the end, you can't think of a review as some kind of award -- it's not. A review is and has always been a way for a consumer to inform themselves. This is true of film, of literature, of music, of products and of games. If the prevailing opinion of an unreleased product is based on factually incorrect statements, a review has the responsibility to correct that opinion lest people end up spending money on something they didn't expect.

 

[SilverBullet]

if only... T_T

 

[JoeFenix]

Speak for yourself. I don't, and haven't done this for a long time. It baffles me that so many other gamers apparently still do this.

Honestly if you're a person that's dead set on purchasing a game before a review comes out, you don't care about reviews when it comes to make buying decisions (which is actually what reviews are for, and why they have scores). You just want your bias confirmed -- bias that has been carefully cultivated by the PR wing of a publisher.

And when your particular bias is out of step with reality, threads like this happen.

You MIGHT have a point if the gameplay mechanics weren't still fully present in the game. The lighting change means that they serve no purpose now, worse still, they might potentially make you waste important items to activate light sources that barely have any impact on the gameplay. That is something that is IN the final build and it's certainly a significant flaw.

 

[Stone Ocean]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1YX30AmYsA

Someone needs to try and mimic this gameplay on the final build and post for compare.

The entire atmosphere of that area is gone. If I recall correctly there's like only one flame on the bottom part, everything else is lit with that gray lighting that makes everything look mushy and boring.

This whole area is probably the ugliest and most uninspired area in all Souls games. It's like they took Lower Undead Burg from Dark 1 and made an entire area like that.

 

[Gbraga]

Early/mid game spoilers below that highlight how detrimental the lighting changes are:

Spoiler

in No Man's Wharf, there is a giant torch you can light hanging from the ceiling by using a Pharros Lockstone. Considering this is one of the first truly brutal areas of the game, finding this giant torch would basically be a momentous, triumphant step forward, as it lights the whole area. With the original lighting I imagine this could have been a pretty iconic moment, as it would have bathed a huge pitch-black area in firelight.

As it stands, though, it makes a few enemies slightly annoyed at the fire and back off a bit. It's a total waste of a Lockstone. You can see everything without torches, so lighting the giant one is pointless.

Man

 

[swazzyswess]

I'm really glad the torch mechanic is nerfed, regardless of lighting issues. It introduced a layer of tedium in a game like Dragon's Dogma that didn't need to be there. I'm sure it would have done the same thing to a larger degree in DkS2. If you want that, just go run through TotG five times.

I might have said that in this thread already, but oh well. Basically everything posted here has been restated like five times anyway.

 

[Sammy Samusu]

Early/mid game spoilers below that highlight how detrimental the lighting changes are:

Spoiler

in No Man's Wharf, there is a giant torch you can light hanging from the ceiling by using a Pharros Lockstone. Considering this is one of the first truly brutal areas of the game, finding this giant torch would basically be a momentous, triumphant step forward, as it lights the whole area. With the original lighting I imagine this could have been a pretty iconic moment, as it would have bathed a huge pitch-black area in firelight.

As it stands, though, it makes a few enemies slightly annoyed at the fire and back off a bit. It's a total waste of a Lockstone. You can see everything without torches, so lighting the giant one is pointless.

Reminds me of Tundra in MH3 vs MH3U.

It was actually one of the main features of the game:

In addition to the water environments, you'll be able to explore dark areas, like caves. To light up your surroundings, you make use of torches. Without torch light, these areas would be too dark for hunting.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2008/09/18/monster-hunter-wii-revealed

lol

 

[Pie and Beans]

Is there a way to petition them to add it back in? Twitter? I seriously can't think of a legit reason why it would be cut since it's such a simple mechanic. This is something that should be added back in a patch, IMO, as it sounds like it would add a lot more atmosphere to the game.

I'm beginning to think this is some focus testing bullshit more than anything. Awful lot of people probably gonna be looking at Durante with puppy-dog eyes soon. Get that donation link ready lad, I don't want to play a great game tarnished by savage last minute changes like this.

Also ENB is going to have to comment on this matter soon lest he be forever tarred with "that shill" brush.

 

[Durante]

There's the torch mechanic, then there's the lighting issue (and potentially textures, animations and more?) Seems people confusing them.

I know I'm supposed to be content with mods and Sweetfx or ENB or whatever, but that's not good enough. Bandaids, not solutions. Not sure why so many people think a graphics mod can replace a lighting engine.

Well, it can, it's all a question of implementation effort -- ENB does to some extent with some of its settings. I certainly wouldn't want to do it though! (Sweetfx is obviously a different matter, it's purely post-processing)

 

[tmaynard]

They put the demo out in the public sphere as their showcase. Intentional or not, it's a bait and switch in the consumer's eyes. If they couldn't match their demo with a reasonable retail release, it would be a huge mistake to intimate that you could do it. You have to manage expectations rather than point at "A" and then deliver "B."

I work at a software firm, and we have to be very clear with prospective clients about the capabilities of our tools upfront. We don't lie and say, "Yes, it can do everything!" If we did, we would just get fucked in the development and then support stage.

Case in point, From put that demo out there, presumably believing that would be in the final product. Now they have to address the fact that the final product does not deliver it. Regardless of intentions, they have to address an issue of their very own creation.

Very well put. This is very true. I'm imagining a scenario where that critical decision making was overlooked for their ambitions (with the switching of directors and trying to outdo the first game). It's just a shame that we ended up being the ones let down due to it.

With that being said, I still have yet to play the game - and while I am very bummed out by the clear downgrade, I'm still very excited for the game and cannot wait to play it.

 

[dubq]

I'm really glad the torch mechanic is nerfed, regardless of lighting issues. It introduced a layer of tedium in a game like Dragon's Dogma that didn't need to be there.

Filling your lantern with oil was tedious? C'mon..

 

[Garcia]

Is there a way to petition them to add it back in? Twitter? I seriously can't think of a legit reason why it would be cut since it's such a simple mechanic. This is something that should be added back in a patch, IMO, as it sounds like it would add a lot more atmosphere to the game.

Now you understand why everyone else is upset about the radical changes of the console build.

 

[RK9039]

Well, it can, it's all a question of implementation effort -- ENB does to some extent with some of its settings. I certainly wouldn't want to do it though! (Sweetfx is obviously a different matter, it's purely post-processing)

Not like this, not like this.

 

[dubq]

Now you understand why everyone else is upset about the radical changes of the console build.

lol, well yeah.. that's why I was asking. I hadn't been following.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Is there a way to petition them to add it back in? Twitter? I seriously can't think of a legit reason why it would be cut since it's such a simple mechanic. This is something that should be added back in a patch, IMO, as it sounds like it would add a lot more atmosphere to the game.

The game is out, I don't think there's anything that can be done short of a re-release.

 

[jim2point0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1YX30AmYsA

Someone needs to try and mimic this gameplay on the final build and post for compare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=l1YX30AmYsA#t=481

That section always blew my mind. I wanted to experience that. The lighting really changes the atmosphere. Sure, the gameplay might stay the same. But the overall experience will be different and a lot more disappointing.

Gah. That whole video. So gorgeous.

 

[swazzyswess]

Filling your lantern with oil was tedious? C'mon..

Not that as much as when you'd fight in a water area, get knocked down, have to go into your menu and unequip it, exit menu, wait for the stupid animation to end, go back to menu, reequip it, exit.... and if you were unlucky, maybe do it again in a few minutes if you were fighting a tough enemy.

I absolutely loved Dragon's Dogma though. That was probably my only issue with it, and it was relatively minor of course. But I don't think it was a great fit for Souls gameplay and IMO DkS2 won't suffer from its absence, aside from a few less than stellar looking sections.

 

[Jiraiza]

I'm really glad the torch mechanic is nerfed, regardless of lighting issues. It introduced a layer of tedium in a game like Dragon's Dogma that didn't need to be there. I'm sure it would have done the same thing to a larger degree in DkS2. If you want that, just go run through TotG five times.

I might have said that in this thread already, but oh well. Basically everything posted here has been restated like five times anyway.

More like trivializing the game, not making it more tedious.

 

[Servbot #42]

So lets for argument sake say that from software would have keep the dynamic lighting in the game at the cost of heavy framerate drops, i mean barely 20 fps in average. Would you guys be cool with that? looks over gameplay?
Maybe thats why they made the changes the choose gameplay over looks. However the footage with the dynamic lighting seemed fine from a framerate perspective so i dunno.

 

[dubq]

The game is out, I don't think there's anything that can be done short of a re-release.

Patch? Other games have been patched for bigger issues, right?

Not that as much as when you'd fight in a water area, get knocked down, have to go into your menu and unequip it, exit menu, wait for the stupid animation to end, go back to menu, reequip it, exit.... and if you were unlucky, maybe do it again in a few minutes if you were fighting a tough enemy.

Ok, I feel you on that point. Water + lanterns was annoying as fuck, lol!

 

[zephervack]

Well, it can, it's all a question of implementation effort -- ENB does to some extent with some of its settings. I certainly wouldn't want to do it though! (Sweetfx is obviously a different matter, it's purely post-processing)

Words from our saviour itself.

Fixing the missing lightning is not trivial, it will be almost impossible to match the demo.

Assuming someone was able to, we only know how the demo area was supposed to look, who knows how the rest of the game could have looked like.

 

[Metalingus5150]

Yeah... those dark areas, completely gone. It's obvious something happened LATE into development because as someone pointed out, they make a big deal about the torches earlier in the game.

 

[Daschysta]

The main problem here isn't even the product's quality; it's the way it is advertised.

Maybe you didn't notice but what you are actually implying with that line of thought is that people should be perfectly content by receiving a pristine, fully functional freezer at their doorstep when they actually paid for a full fledged refrigerator. Both work for the same purpose, but you actually paid for the complete pack and got a limited version instead.

Why even bother about releasing a last-gen version of Dark Souls 2 when the final result wasn't ever going to resemble their original concept?

I think all of us know the answer to that question.

That example isn't the same at all. In that instance it isn't even a product that serves the same purpose. To freeze and to cool are two very different things. This dark souls example is more like suing Wendy's because they hire people to make their food more appetizing for commercials, and even then From may well have made a calculated cut in the name of stability and FPS, not to "deceive". From isn't a very technically talented studio, their games never deliver amazing graphics as well as perform well on the haedware, expecting both is unrealistic, and cutting back on eye candy to improve frame rate etc... us a cut I support 95 percent of the time if necessary. Even so DS2 DOES look better than DS1 in many ways, so the claimed of an improved graphics engine aren't even false.

A beta isn't a finished product, a beta or an alpha is not a promise either, the whole point of beta testing is to see how things are working in an actual game scenario, and then make changes based on the data collected and feedback. From didn't promise to deliver the beta, the promised to deliver a sequel to Dark Souls, which they did, and with flying colors based on my 8 hours with it and the great reviews. To say reviewers, who are paid to review the product at hand, should do anything other than review the finished product is ludicrous, they should editorialize to a certain extent, but the ultimate goal is to review the product in front of you. If the game is worse than thw beta in some way it should be holistically reflected in the review as an overall indictment of the game in questions quality, not some weird diatribe about how they are a petulant child and From pissed in their cereal. The sense of entitlement, institutionalized bias, and catering to vocal minorities who act like spoiled adolescents (maybe some actually are) is why games journalism is a joke. Oh and the widely accepted bribing too.

What game from FROM ever convinced people that they are capable of delivering an entire game that is technically more than average, because I cannot think of any.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Early/mid game spoilers below that highlight how detrimental the lighting changes are:

Spoiler

in No Man's Wharf, there is a giant torch you can light hanging from the ceiling by using a Pharros Lockstone. Considering this is one of the first truly brutal areas of the game, finding this giant torch would basically be a momentous, triumphant step forward, as it lights the whole area. With the original lighting I imagine this could have been a pretty iconic moment, as it would have bathed a huge pitch-black area in firelight.

As it stands, though, it makes a few enemies slightly annoyed at the fire and back off a bit. It's a total waste of a Lockstone. You can see everything without torches, so lighting the giant one is pointless.

Yeah screw this. What the actual fuck, From? How can no one mention all this in a single review? How can people defend this crap?

Damn I'm so disappointed right now.

 

[zephervack]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=l1YX30AmYsA#t=481

That section always blew my mind. I wanted to experience that. The lighting really changes the atmosphere. Sure, the gameplay might stay the same. But the overall experience will be different and a lot more disappointing.

Gah. That whole video. So gorgeous.

Anyone has a video of these areas? From retail version.

I can make more comparisons GIFs, because I hate myself.

 

[Durante]

Fixing the missing lightning is not trivial, it will be almost impossible to match the demo.

Assuming someone was able to, we only know how the demo area was supposed to look, who knows how the rest of the game could have looked like.

Pretty much. Actually, I would even replace "not trivial" with "hard". Or at the very least, incredibly laborious.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

You're missing his point. It's not about what you think the product should be, it's about what the company promised it would be when they convinced you to spend 60 bucks on it.

I'm not even sure I agree with him, need to give this more thought, but you're definitely missing the point.

Actually, I have to agree with the idea that you review the finished product, not any pre-release stuff, because well, games change. In the end, what ships is the only thing that matters.

No one holds a gun to the consumers head and forces them to buy day 1, even if there is sometimes dlc and such for pre-ordering.

 

[SilverBullet]

Going back to all the interviews with the Dev/Producers and there is not a single one where they don't mention the torch mechanic and how dark it is and all that stuff.

My take is that it was like that until very recently builds but at the last hour they where forced to tone it down because some higher-up at the publisher thought it made it to hard and wants the game to be more accessible. (which is something they constantly pushed from the get go).

 

[DeBurgo]

You MIGHT have a point if the gameplay mechanics weren't still fully present in the game. The lighting change means that they serve no purpose now, worse still, they might potentially make you waste important items to activate light sources that barely have any impact on the gameplay. That is something that is IN the final build and it's certainly a significant flaw.

That isn't really significant at all if you didn't know anything about the game's lighting. Somebody that wasn't obsessively following the preview material would likely pass it off as a game quirk. Remember this is a game from a series that allows you to pour stats irreversibly into all sorts of useless stuff.

Don't get me wrong, it is bullshit, but it's only bullshit because you pay attention to pre-release game materials.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

That isn't really significant at all if you didn't know anything about the game's lighting. Somebody that wasn't obsessively following the preview material would likely pass it off as a game quirk. Remember this is a game from a series that allows you to pour stats irreversibly into all sorts of useless stuff.

Giant Bomb spent a good quarter of an hour trying to figure out what the point of the torches was in their quick look. I doubt they're the only ones going in blind not knowing what the hell they're for.

The game puts sconces everywhere, and the torch has a dedicated inventory slot. It doesn't take a genius to wonder if it's meant for something.

 

[Daschysta]

Yeah... those dark areas, completely gone. It's obvious something happened LATE into development because as someone pointed out, they make a big deal about the torches earlier in the game.

Note that I am not targeting you, just speculating on changes.

And that something isn't likely scrap the lighting engine we've invested time and money and development resources into just to spite gamers who we tricked into buying our ugly game. Performance reasons I can buy, as the game they were making a sequel to was heralded as a masterpiece if not for horrible framerate drops and performance issues. Dies it not make sense that they would prioritize delivering a sequel that matches or exceeds the previous game visually, but fixes the biggest issues with the first game, rather than a prettier game with all the same problems as the last? Graphics are way down the line in a list of criticisms commonly thrown after dark souls, lack of accessibility, bugs, running out of steam in the last quarter or so of the game, needless backtracking, lack of area variety compared with demons souls and numerous others come before graphics, and hey! What do you know? Those are the things that From focused on in the sequel before graphics...

 

[SneakyStephan]

I'm really glad the torch mechanic is nerfed, regardless of lighting issues. It introduced a layer of tedium in a game like Dragon's Dogma that didn't need to be there. I'm sure it would have done the same thing to a larger degree in DkS2. If you want that, just go run through TotG five times.

I might have said that in this thread already, but oh well. Basically everything posted here has been restated like five times anyway.

someone never figured out you can give your pawn a lantern in Dragon's dogma
derp

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yeah, and people also said Dark was harder than Demon's. It wasn't if you played them in order.

I played them in order. Dark Souls is definitely harder than Demon's in just about every way.

Not that as much as when you'd fight in a water area, get knocked down, have to go into your menu and unequip it, exit menu, wait for the stupid animation to end, go back to menu, reequip it, exit.... and if you were unlucky, maybe do it again in a few minutes if you were fighting a tough enemy.

You do know that the Instant Reset skill cancels the lantern equip/remove animation, right? That makes it a lot more bearable. Also, clean cloths can remove the drenched condition though obviously you might not be carrying that many of them.

The lantern mechanic in Dragon's Dogma was great. It was a bit annoying when there was a lot of water around, true, but usually still bearable thanks to Instant Reset (since I almost always play as a dagger vocation, that worked well xD). And in Dark Arisen, the Ring of Desiccation was pretty much essential. On my second character, I spent my very first Moonbeam gem on that one chest, and didn't regret it one bit. Made all the difference in the Gutter of Misery, Rotwood Depository and Bloodless Stockade.

 

[solarus]

I wish this game didn't have to be targeted around last gen consoles, such wasted potential.

 

[Kamina]

Try putting the brightness way up in the Tomb of the Giants and you'll see why this doesn't work.

I know that you cant make artificial darkness like that better with brightness,...

It doesn't really work like that. Turning the brightness all the way down still leaves everything perfectly visible.

But Thief for example has a very long brightness slider, when turing it all the way down shadows and dark spots are significantly darker and things are hard to make out.

I believe you guys if you say it doesn't work. I just hoped it would help, ... i just thought that darkening the whole thing might at least cause some reason to use the torch again.

 

[CountAntonius]

A ton of people bitched about areas being too dark in the beta and being forced to use a torch. To be honest I would be fine with one zone like Tomb of giants and not a large part of the game. If it was a design change they made I'm fine with it. Tomb was a huge pain in the ass and I wouldn't want that to be central to the game.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I know that you cant make artificial darkness like that better with brightness,...



But Thief for example has a very long brightness slider, when turing it all the way down shadows and dark spots are significantly darker and things are hard to make out.

I believe you guys if you say it doesn't work. I just hoped it would help, ... i just thought that darkening the whole thing might at least cause some reason to use the torch again.

Brightness sliders don't make nonexistent shadows appear. It can crush details, that's about it.

 

[DeBurgo]

Giant Bomb spent a good quarter of an hour trying to figure out what the point of the torches was in their quick look. I doubt they're the only ones going in blind not knowing what the hell they're for.

The game puts sconces everywhere, and the torch has a dedicated inventory slot. It doesn't take a genius to wonder if it's meant for something.

Hi, I don't really understand how this changes my point.

I don't want to go down the analogy hole and compare it to things in past games in the series so people can just say "nuh-uh, it's TOTALLY not like that", but this isn't really a series known for polish or for its flawless game design economy. Tons of stuff obviously gets thrown in these games that end up being useless or incomplete. Which is fine. There's plenty of stuff in the game that works, and that's what it should be judged upon.

 

[Parsnip]

That example isn't the same at all. In that instance it isn't even a product that serves the same purpose. To freeze and to cool are two very different things. This dark souls example is more like suing Wendy's because they hire people to make their food more appetizing for commercials, and even then From may well have made a calculated cut in the name of stability and FPS, not to "deceive". From isn't a very technically talented studio, their games never deliver amazing graphics as well as perform well on the haedware, expecting both is unrealistic, and cutting back on eye candy to improve frame rate etc... us a cut I support 95 percent of the time if necessary. Even so DS2 DOES look better than DS1 in many ways, so the claimed of an improved graphics engine aren't even false.

A beta isn't a finished product, a beta or an alpha is not a promise either, the whole point of beta testing is to see how things are working in an actual game scenario, and then make changes based on the data collected and feedback. From didn't promise to deliver the beta, the promised to deliver a sequel to Dark Souls, which they did, and with flying colors based on my 8 hours with it and the great reviews. To say reviewers, who are paid to review the product at hand, should do anything other than review the finished product is ludicrous, they should editorialize to a certain extent, but the ultimate goal is to review the product in front of you. If the game is worse than thw beta in some way it should be holistically reflected in the review as an overall indictment of the game in questions quality, not some weird diatribe about how they are a petulant child and From pissed in their cereal. The sense of entitlement, institutionalized bias, and catering to vocal minorities who act like spoiled adolescents (maybe some actually are) is why games journalism is a joke. Oh and the widely accepted bribing too.

What game from FROM ever convinced people that they are capable of delivering an entire game that is technically more than average, because I cannot think of any.

Thank you for this post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Fixing the missing lightning is not trivial, it will be almost impossible to match the demo.

So let me get this straight. Is the lighting actually missing?

I was under the impression that the lighting is still there, but only rendered pointless by the added ambient light. I mean, the torches still illuminate, right? It's only that their impact is significantly reduced because you can see just fine without them.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

[Griss]

Early/mid game spoilers below that highlight how detrimental the lighting changes are:

Spoiler

in No Man's Wharf, there is a giant torch you can light hanging from the ceiling by using a Pharros Lockstone. Considering this is one of the first truly brutal areas of the game, finding this giant torch would basically be a momentous, triumphant step forward, as it lights the whole area. With the original lighting I imagine this could have been a pretty iconic moment, as it would have bathed a huge pitch-black area in firelight.

As it stands, though, it makes a few enemies slightly annoyed at the fire and back off a bit. It's a total waste of a Lockstone. You can see everything without torches, so lighting the giant one is pointless.

Might be the first time I've ever said this without it being in jest, but pre-order cancelled.

I'll wait for an explanation, patch, or next-gen version. It's clear that I'd notice all of these things and have my enjoyment massively affected, and it's clear that this game has come out half-cooked for some reason.

 

[Griss]

So lets for argument sake say that from software would have keep the dynamic lighting in the game at the cost of heavy framerate drops, i mean barely 20 fps in average. Would you guys be cool with that? looks over gameplay?
Maybe thats why they made the changes the choose gameplay over looks. However the footage with the dynamic lighting seemed fine from a framerate perspective so i dunno.

I'd personally give up the framerate to have all the gameplay elements intact. I can be very forgiving of framerate drops. Blighttown was something that was annoying, but didn't really affect my enjoyment. If they'd removed that entire area from DS to optimize the game, now that would have affected my enjoyment.

 

[Zomba13]

So let me get this straight. Is the lighting actually missing?

I was under the impression that the lighting is still there, but only rendered pointless by the added ambient light. I mean, the torches still illuminate, right? It's only that their impact is significantly reduced because you can see just fine without them.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.

There is lighting in the game it's just that the whole world has been made 'brighter' so that instead of a pitch black area it's now visible but grey/dark. Like, say the wall is white with daytime lighting. That same wall, in a room with no windows or light sources would be grey and with a torch out would get an orange glow when really the room should be pitch black when no light is present.

At least that is what I understand from the pics/gifs. Like, the darkest it gets (expect maybe a Tomb of Giants style location where the entire point of the area is darkness), is grey and not black making all the sconces and torches pointless as they are not needed (and a big thing pre-release was the trade off between visibility and protection by off handing a torch or a shield/additional weapon). Also the way light interacts with characters and environments seems dummed down as well as some environmental geometry and physics.