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Square Enix sends cease and desist letter to FF Type 0 translation group

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linkboy

Member
Dear Square Enix, there's an old saying that goes something like this, "Dont cut off your nose to spite your own face."

Its best to know when to pick your battles. This is taking IP protection to ludicrous, pointless extremes that does nothing but perpetuate the SE brand as a bunch of ass-hats that gamers are increasingly not wanting to support.

This is part of why I wait to purchase SE games only when they are as cheap as dirt on Steam and/or pick them up used on console.

Not really, since the patch contains code copyrighted by square-enix, that makes it more than just a simple translation patch.

Its effectively no different than downloading a rom.

It's effectively useless since the patch is out, but square can't let people go and download their games for free.
 

wrowa

Member
No, that's totally correct. If the patcher required both discs and/or a pre-merged two-disc file to work, it could have been distributed with only delta information for the videos, and thereby avoided distributing any of the copyrighted content directly (and also been available in a much smaller package....).

I think they said back then that adding sub-titles to the videos wasn't possible in Type-0's case, so even in that case they probably would have to distribute the videos still.
 
There is literally nothing to suggest that the Crimson Echoes C&D was real. The whole thing perfectly matched the pattern of someone who invents a C&D to get out of a fan project without having to answer questions or get hounded by people afterwards, just like the dude who invented one for 7th Dragon.

I doubt it. Why would they invent a C&D to get out of working on a fan project that was so close to being finished? I think I remember reading around the time that the patch was leaked that it was 98-99% complete.
 

Nairume

Banned
I doubt it. Why would they invent a C&D to get out of working on a fan project that was so close to being finished? I think I remember reading around the time that the patch was leaked that it was 98-99% complete.

Reportedly. The most complete leaked patch is playable from start to finish, but there's no telling how complete it was compared to what they were intending.
 

linkboy

Member
Dont you still need the game for the patch to work? I dont think its effectively the same. Legally it may be the same thing, if that is what you meant.

You only need one disc.

Copyrighted code is still copyrighted code. While Sky may be correct and fan translations are legal in Spain, once you throw copyright code in, that changes the ball game.

Legally, there's no difference between downloading this patch and a rom, as they both contain code that is copyrighted by the company that made the game.
 
I get the legality of it, what I dont get is why they think doing this helps them.

Mostly it sets a precedent that they will in fact C&D anyone who releases a patch or modification that is distributed with SE data included, which is a precedent they probably want people to be aware of.

I thought the whole deal of providing already subbed videos, is because it wasn't possible in other way?

No, you could very much do it another way. The patch format for a ROM hack is basically a delta -- a list of changes to make to the original file. It's certainly possible to make modified movies, collect a changeset of those relative to the original videos, and distribute only that. This team really only took this approach for convenience.
 

Aeana

Member
I doubt it. Why would they invent a C&D to get out of working on a fan project that was so close to being finished? I think I remember reading around the time that the patch was leaked that it was 98-99% complete.
They didn't have to finish it and they didn't have to bother with bugfixes or any post-release support. They basically found a way to release the hack without having to deal with any community drama that may have ensued, too. The whole thing was pretty transparent.
 

Paracelsus

Member
Yeah, after the patch is out it's all fine and well, and even if people can't download the patch from there they will figure out if they google for half a second.
 

linkboy

Member
I remember when SkyBlade said "I'm in Spain, so its legally impossible for them to send a C&D!"

And he may be right (not up on Spanish law).

However, once you start including code that is copyrighted by the company that made the product you're translating, that moves the goal posts (so to speak).
 

unbias

Member
Mostly it sets a precedent that they will in fact C&D anyone who releases a patch or modification that is distributed with SE data included, which is a precedent they probably want people to be aware of.

They already set that precedent with Chrono Trigger. I guess I just dont agree with the move, simply because I dont think they benefit from it.
 
I doubt it. Why would they invent a C&D to get out of working on a fan project that was so close to being finished? I think I remember reading around the time that the patch was leaked that it was 98-99% complete.

That was the point. They were sick of working on it and didn't want to put all the effort into fixing it up and polishing it. Saying they got a C&D then "leaking" what they had let them put out a buggy beta and wash their hands of it.

This isn't a particularly controversial position as far as I'm aware. People were skeptical about the story from day one.

They already set that precedent with Chrono Trigger.

Well, one, no they didn't that was made-up bullshit, but two, you have to follow up a precedent like that by actually doing it.

The legal team is going to be a big influence on the decision-making in this area, even if they're not the sole people choosing what to do. It's not hard to make the business case to leave fan translations alone; it's much harder to convince a legal team to avoid action in a case where your actual content is being redistributed. It might not be the optimal move but (again, if that's what happened, we don't even concretely know there was a C&D) it's pretty believable from a "how do companies actually operate" standpoint.
 

unbias

Member
Well, one, no they didn't that was made-up bullshit, but two, you have to follow up a precedent like that by actually doing it.

The legal team is going to be a big influence on the decision-making in this area, even if they're not the sole people choosing what to do. It's not hard to make the business case to leave fan translations alone; it's much harder to convince a legal team to avoid action in a case where your actual content is being redistributed. It might not be the optimal move but (again, if that's what happened, we don't even concretely know there was a C&D) it's pretty believable from a "how do companies actually operate" standpoint.

Ya, it is believable from a "how they operate" standpoint, still I don't think it is an effectively good operation in this case, assuming it's real, seeing how big the emulation scene is. I didnt know faking C&D's was a thing, I dont actually ever(very rarely) use fan made stuff(outside of elderscrolls).

That said... Resurrection didnt get a C&D or it wasnt real? Now I'm even more sad.
 

Nairume

Banned
That said... Resurrection didnt get a C&D or it wasnt real? Now I'm even more sad.

Chrono Resurrection got killed because the guys working on it decided they wanted to actually sell their engine and used their work on CR to try and market their engine at E3. That is what reportedly brought SE down on them.

Though that may have also been another case of them making shit up as a way to conveniently get out of the project, because CR was always going to be a disappointment since people are still convinced to this day that it was going to pan out into being a full remake of the game and not a tech demo of a few scenes (which was the intention).

Again, it's worth repeating that, despite the reputation that SquareEnix is particularly trigger happy regarding Chrono Trigger fan projects, those are the only two major CT fan projects that seem to have been publicly hit. Meanwhile, there are several fan translations of CT, a translation of Radical Dreamers, and countless other romhacks that were released without issue. There's even a full on editor for CT that makes it crazy easy to edit the game and that seems to be going just fine, too.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
I still can't believe (wait, no I can, people love CT that much) that anyone thinks that project was real.
 

Shinta

Banned
As sad as that is for people who worked on it, SQEX not only should have done this, but they should have done this way sooner and been more aggressive about it.

The whole thread for Type-0 HD's reveal was basically full of people talking about already playing it specifically because of the fan translation. Any company would have to try to stop stuff like that.
 

Nairume

Banned
I still can't believe (wait, no I can, people love CT that much) that anyone thinks that project was real.
Well, it existed as a tech demo....which is exactly what it was always meant to be.

Unless you know something more from having been at that E3 :p
 

fates

Member
Jesus Christ it's almost as if this company hates their western fans.

"almost as if"? Trying being a Dragon Quest fan. Not a matter of "if" or "almost".

Anyway, I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner, with or without an english release planned. Not much they can do now though, it's out and will float around regardless.
 

Nairume

Banned
"almost as if"? Trying being a Dragon Quest fan. Not a matter of "if" or "almost".

Anyway, I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner, with or without an english release planned. Not much they can do now though, it's out and will float around regardless.

It seems as if it *did* happen sooner, and Sky escalated it by ignoring the initial C&D and then made it even worse by actually including huge chunks of the game in the patch.
 
Stay classy Square...jerks. What purpose could this possibly serve? It's already out, it's done. Now you just look like clowns.
 

KemoSabe

Member
SE can F... off.
dedicated fans take their time to do something SE doesnt give a fuck about.
i hope this causes a shitstorm for them...
 

Wazzy

Banned
As sad as that is for people who worked on it, SQEX not only should have done this, but they should have done this way sooner and been more aggressive about it.

The whole thread for Type-0 HD's reveal was basically full of people talking about already playing it specifically because of the fan translation. Any company would have to try to stop stuff like that.

To be fair, S-E announced it for everything but the original system it was released on that people were hyped for so can you really blame the fan translation players?

Some will love it's getting a console release while others would prefer to have it on Vita for portable play and the fan translation allows that. I haven't played it yet or anything but I'm only considering the portable version and it seems the only way for that is the fan translation.
 

360pages

Member
"almost as if"? Trying being a Dragon Quest fan. Not a matter of "if" or "almost".

Anyway, I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner, with or without an english release planned. Not much they can do now though, it's out and will float around regardless.

Pretty, much, the Chrono trigger fan game saw a release even if it was like 5-8 years later. Plus if it is released it might actually put pressure on square to release the game, considering nothing else was convincing them.

It's almost Ironic when Tales studios have been releasing more games over seas then square has considering the situation was pretty much reversed not too long ago
 

DigitalDevilSummoner

zero cognitive reasoning abilities
You only need one disc.

Copyrighted code is still copyrighted code. While Sky may be correct and fan translations are legal in Spain, once you throw copyright code in, that changes the ball game.

Legally, there's no difference between downloading this patch and a rom, as they both contain code that is copyrighted by the company that made the game.

So my question would still be, isn't it possible to release a patch that translates the game without containing copyrighted parts of the original roms ?
 

Shinta

Banned
To be fair, S-E announced it for everything but the original system it was released on that people were hyped for so can you really blame the fan translation players?
The players? No. But I didn't download it, and lots of people were heavily recruiting others to go play the fan translation instead throughout the entire Type-0 HD reveal thread. That's obviously eating away at some sales. Others were also popping in to say over and over that the Type-0 HD project wouldn't be any substantial upgrade over the PSP game, so go play the PSP game instead. To date, no information has been releases to corroborate that at all.

It's portable, yes, but it's still allowing people to play the game and the story before SQEX releases their version. That's a problem for any company interested in making money, or even making a profit at all. I said as much in that Type-0 HD reveal thread too. People were so blatantly trying to promote the fan translation instead, basically subtracting a sale from a game just announced that day, that I called them on it in that thread.

And now, people are actually mad at SQEX and pledging to not buy it out of protest. It's fully unbelievable. If there was ever a use for the word "entitled" we might be creeping dangerously close to it here.
 

Dunan

Member
I had had no idea that there was anything fishy about the C&D for Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes. So that was fabricated?
 

linkboy

Member
So my question would still be, isn't it possible to release a patch that translates the game without containing copyrighted parts of the original roms ?

Legally, it's a gray\grey area.

Most game companies tend to leave translations alone (see Nintendo and the Mother 3 translation as an example) if they stick to two things;

A) Don't include our code

B) Don't try to profit from our game.

The minute you step over by doing either A or B, it creates a problem. The Type-0 patch has content directly from the UMD included in the download, which is why it's so big and you need one disc.
 

Nairume

Banned
I had had no idea that there was anything fishy about the C&D for Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes. So that was fabricated?
Possibly, yeah.

The players? No. But I didn't download it, and lots of people were heavily recruiting others to go play the fan translation instead throughout the entire Type-0 HD reveal thread. That's obviously eating away at some sales. Others were also popping in to say over and over that the Type-0 HD project wouldn't be any substantial upgrade over the PSP game, so go play the PSP game instead. To date, no information has been releases to corroborate that at all.
Funny thing is that was also happening with Crimson Echoes.

Since not everybody was keen on the extra content in CTDS, there was a (small) group of people who had taken to encouraging others to not buy CTDS and just wait for Crimson Echoes. If SquareEnix actually did C&D the project, I imagine that did not make them feel any kinder towards the project.
 
It's portable, yes, but it's still allowing people to play the game and the story before SQEX releases their version. That's a problem for any company interested in making money, or even making a profit at all. I said as much in that Type-0 HD reveal thread too. People were so blatantly trying to promote the fan translation instead, basically subtracting a sale from a game just announced that day, that I called them on it even before this C&D.

This is mostly a consequence of SE's shoddy handling of the localization. Fan translations are common for any significant project from any major publisher that goes a few years unlocalized. They were always going to lose sales in the long run for a project like this, through importing, translation FAQs, and just general loss of interest, by holding it off this long; this doesn't actually add that much, volume-wise. If this project wasn't mostly going to sell to more casual players who don't hack their hardware or play patches off the internet, it wasn't going to succeed anyway.
 

Shinta

Banned
This is mostly a consequence of SE's shoddy handling of the localization.
I'm sure the localization will be top notch, and it's getting an HD upgrade with improvements we don't know about yet.

I think what you mean is that they didn't do it fast enough. Maybe so, that is impossible to contest. But honestly, it's their game and they can release it or not whenever they want.

In this case, they are definitely releasing it and the fan translation definitely does eat away at sales they would otherwise be getting. I watched it happen in the Type-0 HD reveal thread.

If SquareEnix actually did C&D the project, I imagine that did not make them feel any kinder towards the project.
That's what people keep saying, but no one buys products out of "kindness." They buy it because they want something they don't currently have. If they currently have the game already for free, they are much less likely to purchase it than because of any "unkindness" from SQEX.

This just doesn't pass the "smell test" for me. A lot of people say this, but they probably weren't going to buy it anyway. Especially if they already played a fan translation, they'd be more likely to wait for the bargain bin, or skip it altogether.

No, I mean that it probably didn't help the fan group's case in SquareEnix's eyes that people were encouraging others to not support the official release in favor of the hack.

ah, I misread that bit. Thanks.
 

linkboy

Member
This is mostly a consequence of SE's shoddy handling of the localization. Fan translations are common for any significant project from any major publisher that goes a few years unlocalized. They were always going to lose sales in the long run for a project like this, through importing, translation FAQs, and just general loss of interest, by holding it off this long; this doesn't actually add that much, volume-wise. If this project wasn't mostly going to sell to more casual players who don't hack their hardware or play patches off the internet, it wasn't going to succeed anyway.

Exactly, Type-0 honestly should have been a Vita launch title. This is what the Vita launched with in the US


Releasing it as a Vita launch title was the perfect window for that game and would have helped the Vita as well, instead of letting the title languish for 3 years, piss off the people who wanted to buy the game for a portable, indirectly cause people to step up to translate it.
 

Shinta

Banned
Exactly, Type-0 honestly should have been a Vita launch title. This is what the Vita launched with in the US


Releasing it as a Vita launch title was the perfect window for that game and would have helped the Vita as well, instead of letting the title languish for 3 years, piss off the people who wanted to buy the game for a portable, indirectly cause people to step up to translate it.

Because Vita is doing so well. As a company interested in making money and making a new IP spin-off more known to everyone else, a PS4 release definitely has more potential.

Furthermore, this is timed to help promote Agito on mobile in the US. They weren't obligated to release it on Vita.
 

Nairume

Banned
That's what people keep saying, but no one buys products out of "kindness." They buy it because they want something they don't currently have. If they currently have the game already for free, they are much less likely to purchase it than because of any "unkindness" from SQEX.
No, I mean that it probably didn't help the fan group's case in SquareEnix's eyes that people were encouraging others to not support the official release in favor of the hack.
 
Most game companies tend to leave translations alone (see Nintendo and the Mother 3 translation as an example) if they stick to two things;

It's not even "most." Outside of the VN world (which seems to be pretty disconnected from the console/handheld hacking scene) I'm not aware of a single case of a C&D issued to a fan translation project for a game that wasn't planned for US release and which wasn't distributed with copyrighted material. Threatening legal action on a case like this risks going to court; going to court risks spending a lot of money to get nothing, or (even worse) a judgment that dramatically increases the boundaries of acceptable hacks of this type. Turning a blind eye to fan translations generally lets companies offload titles that they don't see an economic benefit to translating themselves while still maintaining the plausibility of shutting down more direct piracy efforts.
 

linkboy

Member
Because Vita is doing so well. As a company interested in making money and making a new IP spin-off more known to everyone else, a PS4 release definitely has more potential.

Furthermore, this is timed to help promote Agito on mobile in the US. They weren't obligated to release it on Vita.

I'm not talking about now, I'm talking about two years ago, when the Vita was launched. While Final Fantasy doesn't have the pull that it used to (due to Square fucking the series up), a new Final Fantasy at launch still packs name power.

Now, yes, a PS4\XB One version makes more sense.
 
I think what you mean is that they didn't do it fast enough. Maybe so, that is impossible to contest. But honestly, it's their game and they can release it or not whenever they want.

Obviously they're allowed to. It's just that they made a decision which was bad because it hurt their own interests, and it did so because of easily forseeable consequences.

A lot of people say this, but they probably weren't going to buy it anyway. Especially if they already played a fan translation, they'd be more likely to wait for the bargain bin, or skip it altogether.

So we agree that the actual quantity of lost sales would be pretty minuscule, all things considered?
 

Nairume

Banned
It's not even "most." Outside of the VN world (which seems to be pretty disconnected from the console/handheld hacking scene) I'm not aware of a single case of a C&D issued to a fan translation project for a game that wasn't planned for US release and which wasn't distributed with copyrighted material. Threatening legal action on a case like this risks going to court; going to court risks spending a lot of money to get nothing, or (even worse) a judgment that dramatically increases the boundaries of acceptable hacks of this type. Turning a blind eye to fan translations generally lets companies offload titles that they don't see an economic benefit to translating themselves while still maintaining the plausibility of shutting down more direct piracy efforts.
Not to mention SquareEnix games are probably the most popular games targeted for fan translations.

FF5's fan translation was even one of the first (or was the first) major RPG fan translations ever, and that happened when FF Anthology was still on the market.
 

Shinta

Banned
So we agree that the actual quantity of lost sales would be pretty minuscule, all things considered?
We were talking about two different things. You were talking about the quantity of sales lost from the fan translation project.

I was talking about the amount of sales lost from "unkindness" due to their C&D.
 

Wazzy

Banned
The players? No. But I didn't download it, and lots of people were heavily recruiting others to go play the fan translation instead throughout the entire Type-0 HD reveal thread. That's obviously eating away at some sales. Others were also popping in to say over and over that the Type-0 HD project wouldn't be any substantial upgrade over the PSP game, so go play the PSP game instead. To date, no information has been releases to corroborate that at all.
But the only reason it's eating into those sales is because S-E is no longer releasing the portable version to the west. That's not the fans nor the translation groups fault, it's Squares for failing to bring the version over that was ACTUALLY asked for. I'm not saying I don't understand where S-E is coming from but I also think S-E isn't seeing the other side either. Announce the portable version and the translation would have never been an issue.

It's portable, yes, but it's still allowing people to play the game and the story before SQEX releases their version. That's a problem for any company interested in making money, or even making a profit at all. I said as much in that Type-0 HD reveal thread too. People were so blatantly trying to promote the fan translation instead, basically subtracting a sale from a game just announced that day, that I called them on it in that thread.

And now, people are actually mad at SQEX and pledging to not buy it out of protest. It's fully unbelievable. If there was ever a use for the word "entitled" we might be creeping dangerously close to it here.
The problem is that S-E is failing to realize that the reason these translations exist and are still heavily encouraged is because they took too long to actually announce Type-0 for the west and then when they finally did, they don't include the version that everyone has been waiting for.

People have been waiting years for this game. They've begged and begged for it to be brought over and while this was all happening the fan translation group decided to help those people out. Now S-E finally decides to release it on different systems(no longer even an exclusive) and not include the original and you're wondering why people are upset about this?

If this were a case of the original being brought over then I can see the point of S-E wanting to rid of the translation group but this is for a version that's never going to be released here.
 

Mandoric

Banned
Not to mention SquareEnix games are probably the most popular games targeted for fan translations.

FF5's fan translation was even one of the first (or was the first) major RPG fan translations ever, and that happened when FF Anthology was still on the market.

It happened two years before FFA launched.
 

Dunan

Member
Not to mention SquareEnix games are probably the most popular games targeted for fan translations.

FF5's fan translation was even one of the first (or was the first) major RPG fan translations ever, and that happened when FF Anthology was still on the market.

It was mostly translated in text form (that is, not a ROM patch) long before Anthology was made.
 
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